Do you think there is any chance they ever bring 10m raiding back?

[Krakozjubr]

Perhaps for those with absolutely no leadership or management experience sure. Stay casual my dude.

I bet you are not involved in recruitment process for your guild.

[Dangg]

Good for you that you speak for people. How did you come about that gig? And how does it work? Y

I'm not speaking for anybody, but basing my statment on facts. Might take a look at MoP 10/25 heroic participation.

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Perhaps for those with absolutely no leadership or management experience sure. Stay casual my dude.

It's a video game, not a business. The managment required to play the game should be reduced to a minimum.

[Flurryfang]

Blizzard have found a group size in which they can make things work, so we will proberly not see mythic 10 man raiding ever again.

And this is okay. This is just the new reality and it can be changed. If you don't like raiding with 20 people, just don't raid mythic. Be a super duper amazing heroic player and stop playing when you feel like you have hit the best you can do and when the fun is no longer there. Think of mythic difficulty, as a difficulty that required you to move to Texas. For some people this might be possible, but if you don't want to that, then there is no reason to see it as a possibility.

[Rotted]

Highly doubt it,

The only way I'd want to see it come back is if we went back to set raid sizes varying between 10 man and 25 man, and that;ll never happen

[Flurryfang]

It's a video game, not a business. The managment required to play the game should be reduced to a minimum.

A part of the fun about guild managment is actually that it requires alot of work. It feels like you are a HR for this small company, that is made up of your friends and a few other nice people. You get to know them pretty well, having talks with them every now and then, and actually get some experience to deal with people for later in life. My 4 years as guild manager and tactic leader really taught me alot about people and that it required alot of me was actually one of the things that kept me going and made the game engaging for me

[Low Hanging Fruit]

It won't happen until 20 man starts to decay to a point of no return. That isn't something that is happening in the next expansion, likely not the next either, unless they lay one or two more WoD level of bad expansion eggs in a row. Because most of the sub loss seems to be more in the casual side of the player base because raider interest doesn't seem as hard hit from the past few expansions as casual side.

[Hotsforyou]

It won't happen until 20 man starts to decay to a point of no return. That isn't something that is happening in the next expansion, likely not the next either, unless they lay one or two more WoD level of bad expansion eggs in a row. Because most of the sub loss seems to be more in the casual side of the player base because raider interest doesn't seem as hard hit from the past few expansions as casual side.

I see it decaying already. The recruitment boss is killing a lot of guilds in Mythic.

[Kaykay]

10 man was by far the best raid format.
1 Easy to maintain a (good) roster, that can show every raid.
2 less need for shitty management like epg/loot councils/rotations
3 better atmosphere (with 10 people, you dont have to be as strict with voice chat restrictions during raid).
4 bigger accountability for dps and healers, not just a cogwheel in a machine, if you did really well, it could be felt during the fight.
5 allows for more focus on mechanical encounters, no free-rides "because i never get targeted by living bomb anyways"
6 less room for cheesing mechanics with stacked compositions.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I see it decaying already. The recruitment boss is killing a lot of guilds in Mythic.

Right. Which is why I say that. Although that has been the case since before even mythic was a thing.

Remember how Blizzard sees decay. It usually is once its starting to turn to dust when they say "hey guys, we worked out the kinks and 10 man is coming back" so they don't have to admit mistakes and 10 man comes back as a new and improved feature once the bones of the current model are scrapped.

Because one thing is certain any model will eventually get scrapped. Went from 40 man to 25 in the first expansion. Then to a 25 and 10 man different difficultly in the second expansion. Then from 25 and 10 man "equal" difficulty in the third and forth expansion. Then for WoD and Legion is stayed the flex normal/heroic with fix 20 mythic.

With that much change it is next to impossible to say it will absolutely stay the same for much longer. I doubt it will change in the next expansion. No proof or anything just what the gut is telling me. Ion seems very stubborn on this because he seems to focus on the first 3 weeks of a tier release and then poops on everyone else that progresses the whole time.

My bet is, and again a guess, is this game starts to turn more and more towards mythic+ systems. The team can turn out 3-4 new 5 mans a season (patch) and they have proved they can capitalize on it outside of the game commercially with the invitational. Something raids really haven't done. Then they can just keep a similar raid style going as usually with a 9-10 boss deal that drops every 6-8 months or so and then have mythic+ be the real aim of the game. Gets people way more involved. It is less exclusive. Difficulty levels progress and drop to level skill levels. Is way more rewarding. Easier to pug and make groups for on the fly. All win / win from Blizzards perspective. I doubt, again, this happens in the next expansion. But I see it moving more and more towards it.

[Cazz17]

Sadly not.

[fiestatastic]

I see a lot of arguments in the thread about how small servers don't even have a mythic kill and so their answer is bring back 10 man raiding. Why isn't the answer do another server merge thing like they did back in....cata?(Honestly don't know when they did the last one). Ion has even said on the Fatboss stream during Gamescom that they were looking at doing another one for the smaller servers that have the worst time trying to recruit. That feels like a better and easier option to try first instead of the screaming about bring back 10 man raiding.

It's not even just that. 10 man is obviously a lot more intimate and personal, allows for more communication. It enabled a completely different raid environment than having twice as many people.

But they already killed it, lost those millions that didn't care to adjust, and made their peace with it. 10 man is too far gone and isn't coming back.

[Deleted]

No since it will only require more balancing, which is pretty difficult already

[Deleted]

No since it will only require more balancing, which is pretty difficult already

Pretty sure you could lower the difficulty drastically by removing legendary items + titanforging.

On topic though I hope we will some reduction in the numbers needed next expansion. All I see a guilds collapsing around me due to low attendance.

[Amnaught]

Plus it was much more personal... I knew everyone in my group, I still play other game and shit with most of them... It was very tight-knit.

- What literally everyone said about 25 man raids in a world where MMOs were running 40- and 70-man raids

- What literally everyone would say about 5-man raids if 10-mans were back

[valky94]

no /endthread

[Deleted]

I wish they'd allow for 10-man Mythic. I don't enjoy 20-man groups and it's extremely hard to keep them together. Recruiting on smaller servers is not easy and quality suffers.
10-man would be good for smaller tight-knit groups who still want the challenge of hard mode raiding.

But realistically, nope, they're not bringing it back - too many fragile dev egos riding on the 20-man decision.

[Rahmula]

As much as I love smaller raid sizes, I'd say there's a low chance of them ever bringing back 10m for Mythic raiding. Lowest I see them going is maybe 15m.

A fixed size lets them more easily design encounters without having to worry about scaling between sizes. It also helped end the debates about which size was more relevant during progression. Now for mythic difficulty, all groups are on a more even playing field.

Having a fixed size also lets them be able to design mechanics with specific class abilities in mind. It's harder to do that with 10m unless classes become even more homogenized, since there are already more than 10 classes to choose from.

IDK... Maybe they'll let cross-server mythic raiding be a thing from the start, if it becomes too much a problem.

[Realmerc]

interesting, so you think 20 men will not kill a bunch of dps specs? i think not

check out the charts of class variety for early M KJ kills. stupid blizzard thinking 20 men will help out their shit balancing? LMAO

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Specifically because it's a challenge to design an encounter at its hardest difficulty for a range of participants. If Mythic was flexible there'd be an "ideal" composition for each boss.

you mean 5 rogues for M avatar and M kj? is it really that challenging or they're just shit at balancing?

[Jimson]

interesting, so you think 20 men will not kill a bunch of dps specs? i think not

check out the charts of class variety for early M KJ kills. stupid blizzard thinking 20 men will help out their shit balancing? LMAO

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you mean 5 rogues for M avatar and M kj? is it really that challenging or they're just shit at balancing?

Nah I mean "this encounter uses 7 DPS, 4 heals, 2 tanks, but this other one goes 5/3/2, and this one is 10/5/2, etc." So in addition to the class stacking, which will never go away in a min-max, you also have group sizes fluctuating, which makes it even harder to balance and would likely exacerbate stacking.

[D3athsting]

I hope so but it's unlikely to happen, not having 20 ppl for mythic content when you can clear hc in less than 3 hours sucks alot, high m+ are the only end game content you can do when you haven't 20 ppl with decent attendance in your roster and are the only reason i didn't freeze until antorus