So, can we call Legion a bust for anyone who played Ret, and what's in it for 8.0?

[Morally Grey Storm]

Probably because everyone else complains about us having bubble.. idk really I hate slowing down mythic groups because I'm just jogging compared to everyone else.

Could not care less what everyone complains about. Literally.

Otherwise it makes no sense.

[Azardea]

Remove the dumb Colossus Smash ripoff mechanic and I'm happy. Not the most fun spec in the game, but it'd be acceptable at worst.

[Titans]

Remove the dumb Colossus Smash ripoff mechanic and I'm happy. Not the most fun spec in the game, but it'd be acceptable at worst.

Fully agree, the issues we have with the spec now are the same ones fury warriors had through all of MoP. Except the warrs had mobility.

[HitRefresh]

I bet you 8.0 is going to scrap more abilities and just make the spec even more fucking boring and uninteresting. Christ, seals and judgement in vanilla was more interesting. In fact, bring that shit back but make it better. Kind of like what WotLK did.

[Sylvaeres]

With 7.3 released and seemingly nothing significant on the horizon for Retribution Paladins other than a different Tier set, can we now safely assume this expac is just a write-off for us in terms of having our issues addressed?

Does anyone still think Blizzard will do something at this point before next expac (other than the obvious pre-expac patch)? If so, what would you expect from them?

Finally, last question, what's your 8.0 prediction or even hopes for the spec? Do you see a return to MoP/WoD gameplay, or just a refined version of our current Colossus Smash 2.0 gameplay with better options than Crusade-only?

I've been Ret since 7.0 and just holding out for hopes that we'd eventually get somewhere. I am now under the impression that until 8.0 and a full new-expac rework Blizzard is just too afraid to screw around with our spec and its dependance on Crusade is a huge factor in that; they don't want to break the one talent that makes us even remotely competitive.

I do hope they can keep this playstyle though. The deliberatness and "feel" of the rotation wasn't bad at all for me anyway, but just offered very little in terms of output, especially for Single-Target situations. I think the low-RNG of it was a good thing, but it had other issues that made our output sub-par. I'd like 8.0 to be an improvement on our 7.0 rework rather than a full breakdown amd rebuild of the spec.

"I've been Ret since 7.0" lol. Well, in that case...

[Omaski]

Blizz just needs to...

1. get rid of or change the lvl 100 talent row
2. return our mobility talents to WoD (pursuit of justice, long arm of the law, & the other passive speed buff w/ HoPwr increase)

at the very least...get rid of holy power and give us Diablo 3 crusader "wrath resource"

[Eurytos]

Here's a political analogy: When you're in power, you have to put forth ideas and policies based in fact. Based on numbers, and how things will be paid for. When youre not in power, you can campaign on the loftiest of goals and ideas, with out regard for how to actually accomplish things. You appeal to the aspiration in people. And then you figure out the logistics once youre in power.
(Stay focused here, don't go too far off, I'm just making an analagoy, not looking for political talk.)

When it comes to ret paladin mobility...we are most certainly not in power. We should be asking for anything and everything. We should be aspirational in what we demand of the ret devs. I wan't Turalyons leap, I want 2 charges of steed, I want Falling Sword, I want Hand of Freedom to instantly trigger if I'm slowed, or anything else folks can think of that would benefit us.

If WoW is a game where devs are allowed to experiment with abilities, they are allowed to iterate and reiterate on things...in the 8.0 beta(and maybe even the first month of 8.0 live before raids come out), we should have a shit ton of stuff, then the devs figure out whats best, what we like the most, whats the most useful and balanced compared to every other melee class.

[Deleted]

Well since mana is not used for attacks (taking into account that this combo system stays) I would like mana to be utilized for quality of life and utility spells/talents.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You have FoL already.
You have hand of long-ass cd slow-which-is-easy-to-dispel with a fethhuge manacost.
Still want more you ret whiner?

[Heldamon]

I don't believe this class will get any mobility boost ever. So I wouldn't keep my hopes up on that part

[Bloodletters]

I like the holy power system, but I don't think that it has good synergy with a colossus smash debuff style of play (the current judgment debuff). This comment will be very similar to many others i've posted both here and on the blizzard forums, but I strongly dislike the current playstyle. I think the judgment redesign was a mistake, the rotation was overly simplified with no variation based on single target or aoe, and that our cooldown doesn't vary that beyond things hitting harder and slightly faster.

I loved the talent balance in MoP, there were many points where divine purpose, holy avenger, and sanctified wrath all simmed very close to each other, so people could choose based on whether they wanted burst, rng, more ranged attacks via hammer of wrath during wings, etc. It brought variety while staying balanced. WoD took that to a further level which was also enjoyable, the synergy between those choices and the new ones (especially final verdict) made for a playstyle that rewarded good decision making while allowing choice for those who wanted it.

I have mained ret for many years, and was one of the few who stuck through it with the major revamp in legion prepatch. I am glad that they have moved on from some of the simpler mistakes such as having divine intervention and our only movement cd on the same talent tier (e.g. making steed baseline). I also liked the shift from hammer of the righteous to divine hammer, not needing a target in front of us to do aoe was a positive change. So the changes haven't been all bad. But we lost our execution ability, we lost several holy power generators, and we lost the dps talent choices that simmed comparably yet varied the rotation in unique ways. We also lost mobility options (having 0 baseline at expac launch, and currently mobility and survivability are on the same talent tier). And we gained the judgment debuff (colossus smash) playstyle, despite the heavily criticism when fury warriors had it during MoP. Overall what the spec lost was more than what it gained, both in terms of choice and interesting rotation. Legion ret was a negative change that I hope is reverted or different for next expansion.

Fury playstyle in MoP was arguably one of the greatest specs that Blizzard has ever had, I mained a Fury Warrior in MoP and even some guild mates of mine who didn't play Fury primarily said it was one of the greatest specs. It had a high skill floor and skill cap, but even more so, it was fun! It's funny because Chadd gutted the Fury spec and gave Ret and Enhance Shamans a bastardized version of Fury. The primary issues with their versions of the Colossus Smash style debuff is they do not have an off the GCD attack and they don't have a resource like rage which has an unpredictability to it that changes based on critical attacks and incoming damage, those two things made the spec reactive and dynamic. The people who complained about Fury in MoP, I'm not sure how to say this in a nice way but they likely influenced making the game much easier and consequently a lot less fun to play.

I've played Ret off and on this expansion and I do think it's fairly fun to play but again like most other specs these days, the skill ceiling was lowered dramatically and that really makes the game a lot less fun for me.

One other thing, they really made a mistake by taking away so many of Rets ranged options considering they have such poor mobility. You no longer have a passive dot through your seal, you no longer have Hammer of Wrath, you can barely use Judgement from range because you want to save it for when you're in melee range to do max damage. They really made some significant mistakes.

[xxcloud417xx]

Well, 4pc did get changed, so I guess they decided to do SOMETHING to Ret before 7.3.5. Anyone on PTR able to confirm how Ret is doing at least flat numers-wise?

Also, if anyone is testing or looking at Antorus testing, are the fights a bit more Ret (and generally melee) friendly? None of this running around and losing tremendous amounts of DPS due to low boss damage uptime. Finally, not least of all, how "soaky" is it compared to Tomb? Are we still at the risk of getting benched for 5 Rogues?

[Reith]

Well, 4pc did get changed, so I guess they decided to do SOMETHING to Ret before 7.3.5. Anyone on PTR able to confirm how Ret is doing at least flat numers-wise?

Also, if anyone is testing or looking at Antorus testing, are the fights a bit more Ret (and generally melee) friendly? None of this running around and losing tremendous amounts of DPS due to low boss damage uptime. Finally, not least of all, how "soaky" is it compared to Tomb? Are we still at the risk of getting benched for 5 Rogues?

I can't find this change you're talking about. It's definitely not on PTR yet.

[Khorm]

Fully agree, the issues we have with the spec now are the same ones fury warriors had through all of MoP. Except the warrs had mobility.

MoP Fury was very popular, are you thinking of Arms?

[Omaski]

It may be wishful thinking but i think Blizz will be a bit more adventurous w/ Ret in 8.0. I honestly think they will being back...

1. Permanent auras in some capacity
2. Hammer of Wrath
3. Our old movement talent tier w/ long arm of the law, pursuit of justice, speed of light

*Hopefully getting rid of holy power and giving us wrath like Diablo 3 crusader w/ similar playstyle

[Eurytos]

It may be wishful thinking but i think Blizz will be a bit more adventurous w/ Ret in 8.0. I honestly think they will being back...

1. Permanent auras in some capacity
2. Hammer of Wrath
3. Our old movement talent tier w/ long arm of the law, pursuit of justice, speed of light

*Hopefully getting rid of holy power and giving us wrath like Diablo 3 crusader w/ similar playstyle

No chance Holy Power is changing. Pretty much all dps specs other than arcane mage don't care about mana at all. Its not a limiting resource. Holy power, combo points/energy, soul shards, runes, rage, chi, are all the true resource of these classes. Mana isnt really a great way to control dps specs.

If mana became an issue for Rets dps capabilities, it would be awful. If we went back to mana and mana just didnt matter at all, I think it limits the spec. Holy Power was the single biggest change Ret has had, including the changing of how seals and judgement work(which I think was the second biggest change). By having Holy Power, regardless of what you think about it...it allows for more development of the spec.

It aint going anywhere. But I dont think it has to in order to make the spec better. Since Holy Power, they have been fucking with Ret a lot. If they are truly just iterating on things, then with the sample size they have of Cata to present...they HAVE to have a good idea of what playstyle is best for Ret. There are so man suggestions, essentially taking the best parts of the different iterations of ret throughout WoW to make it a playstyle that many old and new players will enjoy. I've posted my thoughts, many others have posted theirs. There is a combo of the cool things from Vanilla to now, certain abilities baseline, certain abilities that change the playstyle a little, mabye even up the difficulty to increase dmg through talent choices that is completely available to the devs if they really want to make Ret the spec it can be.

It might all just be hope, but I think there is enough there to do good things in 8.0. But I don't think any form of Ret going forward exists without Holy Power as the main resource. We shall see.

[Omaski]

No chance Holy Power is changing. Pretty much all dps specs other than arcane mage don't care about mana at all. Its not a limiting resource. Holy power, combo points/energy, soul shards, runes, rage, chi, are all the true resource of these classes. Mana isnt really a great way to control dps specs.

If mana became an issue for Rets dps capabilities, it would be awful. If we went back to mana and mana just didnt matter at all, I think it limits the spec. Holy Power was the single biggest change Ret has had, including the changing of how seals and judgement work(which I think was the second biggest change). By having Holy Power, regardless of what you think about it...it allows for more development of the spec.

It aint going anywhere. But I dont think it has to in order to make the spec better. Since Holy Power, they have been fucking with Ret a lot. If they are truly just iterating on things, then with the sample size they have of Cata to present...they HAVE to have a good idea of what playstyle is best for Ret. There are so man suggestions, essentially taking the best parts of the different iterations of ret throughout WoW to make it a playstyle that many old and new players will enjoy. I've posted my thoughts, many others have posted theirs. There is a combo of the cool things from Vanilla to now, certain abilities baseline, certain abilities that change the playstyle a little, mabye even up the difficulty to increase dmg through talent choices that is completely available to the devs if they really want to make Ret the spec it can be.

It might all just be hope, but I think there is enough there to do good things in 8.0. But I don't think any form of Ret going forward exists without Holy Power as the main resource. We shall see.

So how about wrath in conjuction with mana, or something else entirely...most melee classes (cept warriors, Dh, SV hunter) have 2 resources they have to manage. Dks (runes/runic power), rogues/feral (combo points/energy), monks (chi/energy). It would be unique to have paladins use holy power and wrath as their 2 resources...with holy power working as it does currently, like combo points, and wrath working like warrior rage. i mean, this just popped into my head just now but <sarcasm> im sure Blizz can figure out how to make it work well </sarcasm>

[Ellarielle]

So how about wrath in conjuction with mana, or something else entirely...most melee classes (cept warriors, Dh, SV hunter) have 2 resources they have to manage. Dks (runes/runic power), rogues/feral (combo points/energy), monks (chi/energy). It would be unique to have paladins use holy power and wrath as their 2 resources...with holy power working as it does currently, like combo points, and wrath working like warrior rage. i mean, this just popped into my head just now but <sarcasm> im sure Blizz can figure out how to make it work well </sarcasm>

I actually like how holy power works. I have a hard time on my feral druid balancing the combo points and energy management (granted I haven't put nearly the time into my druid this xpac as I have my pally). Not saying your idea is bad, would definitely feel like a more difficult playstyle. Right now the "playstyle" is keep all my generators on CD and use TV/DS so I don't overcap it. If that makes any sense.

[Shelly]

So how about wrath in conjuction with mana, or something else entirely...most melee classes (cept warriors, Dh, SV hunter) have 2 resources they have to manage. Dks (runes/runic power), rogues/feral (combo points/energy), monks (chi/energy). It would be unique to have paladins use holy power and wrath as their 2 resources...with holy power working as it does currently, like combo points, and wrath working like warrior rage. i mean, this just popped into my head just now but <sarcasm> im sure Blizz can figure out how to make it work well </sarcasm>

Wrath is Holy Power.

The biggest difference is Wrath has more spenders and we don't want that. Doing so just makes the spec more complicated than it should be. Just look at Windwalker Monks where their AoE was made into a weird chi spender for some reason, I really don't want to juggle choosing between TV and Consecrate in addition to DS and whatever else they may give to us.

Also DH have a 2nd resource - if you talent nemesis - since you need to manage the debuff. SV have Mongoose stacks.

Paladins are in a pretty good place resource-wise, their rotation is fluid and you can talent to make it more interesting too.

What we could really use is just an increase in spell effects for our heavy hitters. TV and DS could both use a bit more shine - as could Wake of Ashes if they bring it forward. Right now our most impressive looking ability is Blade of Justice and hardly anyone sees it because Divine Hammer is so much better overall.

[Tyze]

Ret was one of my favourite specs pre legion. It was soo fun!

Judgement speed
Seals
Holy Avenger/SW
Hammer of Wrath