Let's talk about vanish (subtlety)

[shaunika123]

Is it just me, or has vanish lost all meaning as a dps cooldown for subtlety, when it used to be one of our best ones?

let's just take the shoulders out of the equation (since they're not part of class design)

and then vanish is basically an extra shadowstrike every 1.30 minutes

so once legendaries are gone and we get to the next expansion, we're gonna need some serious change to vanish

i know 8.0 isnt here right away but based on their response to subtlety in 7.0 we need about 1,5 years to get a reaction, so let's start spitballing right now.

vanish could cast symbols for example (if we're going off on what it used to be)
or they could bake the shoulders into vanish

these are just the first ideas that come to mind, but i think it's important that sub keeps vanish as an important dps cooldown

[elfporn]

Is it just me, or has vanish lost all meaning as a dps cooldown for subtlety, when it used to be one of our best ones?

let's just take the shoulders out of the equation (since they're not part of class design)

and then vanish is basically an extra shadowstrike every 1.30 minutes

so once legendaries are gone and we get to the next expansion, we're gonna need some serious change to vanish

i know 8.0 isnt here right away but based on their response to subtlety in 7.0 we need about 1,5 years to get a reaction, so let's start spitballing right now.

vanish could cast symbols for example (if we're going off on what it used to be)
or they could bake the shoulders into vanish

these are just the first ideas that come to mind, but i think it's important that sub keeps vanish as an important dps cooldown

You could say the same for Assination - Without a synergistic effect, vanish is going to move to a purely utility role for all three specs for the first time in....4? expansions. Mostly in that distant past it was another way for sub to apply find weakness, but atleast 1 spec could utilize it for a dps cd.

[shaunika123]

You could say the same for Assination - Without a synergistic effect, vanish is going to move to a purely utility role for all three specs for the first time in....4? expansions. Mostly in that distant past it was another way for sub to apply find weakness, but atleast 1 spec could utilize it for a dps cd.

here's the thing
even if it's just one shadowstrike you'll still use it, it'll just feel like shitty to use

and for assa/outlaw it was never really a significant ability, but ever since cata vanish has been a defining dps cd for sub, and i feel like it needs to stay that way

[Deleted]

Its also a cd you cant really use solo, unless there is some macro shenanigans you can do to not reset mobs?
Thats been a bit more irksome in some solo content the times when it was a stronger cd.

Still not been able to get my hands on that damn mantle...

[shaunika123]

Its also a cd you cant really use solo, unless there is some macro shenanigans you can do to not reset mobs?
Thats been a bit more irksome in some solo content the times when it was a stronger cd.

Still not been able to get my hands on that damn mantle...

there's about a 0.5 sec delay before a mob resets so if you're fast with vanish it wont reset

[Deleted]

Is it just me, or has vanish lost all meaning as a dps cooldown for subtlety, when it used to be one of our best ones?

let's just take the shoulders out of the equation (since they're not part of class design)

and then vanish is basically an extra shadowstrike every 1.30 minutes

so once legendaries are gone and we get to the next expansion, we're gonna need some serious change to vanish

i know 8.0 isnt here right away but based on their response to subtlety in 7.0 we need about 1,5 years to get a reaction, so let's start spitballing right now.

vanish could cast symbols for example (if we're going off on what it used to be)
or they could bake the shoulders into vanish

these are just the first ideas that come to mind, but i think it's important that sub keeps vanish as an important dps cooldown

i would love that shoulders would be implemented into vanish but that will never happen, its waaaaay to strong of a legendary effect.

[shaunika123]

i would love that shoulders would be implemented into vanish but that will never happen, its waaaaay to strong of a legendary effect.

bear in mind that stealth wouldnt have that affect, only vanish

it could also last for less

it was just an idea

the point is vanish needs to do something

[ro9ue]

I would prefer if Vanish remains a pure utility ability, or using it contributes such a small dps increase, most players won't have to use it.

If they want to make Vanish a DPS CD and add a shoulder-like effect in the future, I hope it's applied via a talent option so I can pick something else and keep Vanish as my get out of death free card.


Also as a side note, I got the shoulders but I normally play Assassin. For Sub, does that stealth crit bonus activate during Shadow Dance?

[shaunika123]

I would prefer if Vanish remains a pure utility ability, or using it contributes such a small dps increase, most players won't have to use it.

If they want to make Vanish a DPS CD and add a shoulder-like effect in the future, I hope it's applied via a talent option so I can pick something else and keep Vanish as my get out of death free card.


Also as a side note, I got the shoulders but I normally play Assassin. For Sub, does that stealth crit bonus activate during Shadow Dance?

if it did you'd see a lot more sub rogues on top rankings :P

[Seliar]

I disagree. Vanish is a defensive cooldown, just cause you can use it for dps it won't be a dps cd. It's like saying that evasion needs to give you high threat because you can tank for a short time while it's active (I know it's a bit exxageration but you get my point). Btw you'll be able to use vanish for 3 ss with increased dmg, one with a teleport and/or gain 25 energy from it and you'll be able to use vanish exatly the same way for pvp purposes as right now.

I personally hate that I have to use vanish in my rotation, so I can't escape death on progress bosses when the raid wipes and I hope they won't ever try to make it a dps cooldown again.

[Finear]

You could say the same for Assination - Without a synergistic effect, vanish is going to move to a purely utility role for all three specs for the first time in....4? expansions. Mostly in that distant past it was another way for sub to apply find weakness, but atleast 1 spec could utilize it for a dps cd.

not really

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=14062/nightstalker

[shaunika123]

I disagree. Vanish is a defensive cooldown, just cause you can use it for dps it won't be a dps cd. It's like saying that evasion needs to give you high threat because you can tank for a short time while it's active (I know it's a bit exxageration but you get my point). Btw you'll be able to use vanish for 3 ss with increased dmg, one with a teleport and/or gain 25 energy from it and you'll be able to use vanish exatly the same way for pvp purposes as right now.

I personally hate that I have to use vanish in my rotation, so I can't escape death on progress bosses when the raid wipes and I hope they won't ever try to make it a dps cooldown again.

you'd be right, if vanish hasnt been one of the most important offensive cooldowns of the sublety spec since 2010

if it still has shadowstrike baked into it(as well as the other minor perks), you'll still need to use it as an offensive cooldown so it'Ll be worthless as a defensive one, the only differnece is it's gonna be a super boring offensive cooldown with almost no impact

it deepends the gameplay and adds to the skillcap, there's nothing wrong with that

[Seliar]

you'd be right, if vanish hasnt been one of the most important offensive cooldowns of the sublety spec since 2010

if it still has shadowstrike baked into it(as well as the other minor perks), you'll still need to use it as an offensive cooldown so it'Ll be worthless as a defensive one, the only differnece is it's gonna be a super boring offensive cooldown with almost no impact

it deepends the gameplay and adds to the skillcap, there's nothing wrong with that

Since you can use stealth abilites from vanish it will always have some minor perks which translates into some minor dps increase. You could vanish-ambush every 5 minutes in vanilla too (a little bit more often with prep), but if it only gives you like 0,2% increase in dps it might be worth to save vanish for times when you need to disappear and not attack (like a wipe or when you pulled aggro in vanilla and had to reset with vanish). Before the shoulders came, vanish wasn't considered as an ultimate dps cooldown, it was just a shorter shadow dance, but now one fucked up vanish combo and your dps falls behind significantly. It's especially frustriting when dfa bugs out and you just fall down without hitting with evis..

[shaunika123]

Since you can use stealth abilites from vanish it will always have some minor perks which translates into some minor dps increase. You could vanish-ambush every 5 minutes in vanilla too (a little bit more often with prep), but if it only gives you like 0,2% increase in dps it might be worth to save vanish for times when you need to disappear and not attack (like a wipe or when you pulled aggro in vanilla and had to reset with vanish). Before the shoulders came, vanish wasn't considered as an ultimate dps cooldown, it was just a shorter shadow dance, but now one fucked up vanish combo and your dps falls behind significantly. It's especially frustriting when dfa bugs out and you just fall down without hitting with evis..

it was an "ultimate dps cooldown" because it applied find weakness for 10 second (or 13 with subterfuge), which was fucking huge
it wasnt just a shorter shadow dance, it was a shorter shadow dance and the pre legion equivalent of symbols of death for 10-13 seconds

[Varolyn]

If you want to talk about vanish being an ultimate dps cooldown for sub, you have to look back at HFC/t18. I believe the set bonus gave a damage buff when you used vanish, and the other bonus was sort of like restless blades for vanish. Combine that bonus, with the ring, Soul Cap, and find weakness, and boom, sub has extremely high burst only beaten by Arcane mages.

[Seliar]

it was an "ultimate dps cooldown" because it applied find weakness for 10 second (or 13 with subterfuge), which was fucking huge
it wasnt just a shorter shadow dance, it was a shorter shadow dance and the pre legion equivalent of symbols of death for 10-13 seconds

I meant that in legion vanish was only a short sd, not in wod.

[shaunika123]

I meant that in legion vanish was only a short sd, not in wod.

yes for like 4 months before the shoulders

so that's 4 months out of 7 years where it wasnt a big dps cd

and hell, at least in those months you could use it to refresh symbols of death, which was actually very useful (and thematically similar to old vanish and FW)

[elfporn]

not really

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=14062/nightstalker

Not really what? In Legion the shoulders turned vanish into a hue dps cooldown for all three specs. Before the advent of the legendary shoulders, vanish was only a big cooldown for sub. It was useful for the other two specs for a large attack once every 2/3 minutes, in other words: not a major dps CD.

- - - Updated - - -

I disagree. Vanish is a defensive cooldown, just cause you can use it for dps it won't be a dps cd. It's like saying that evasion needs to give you high threat because you can tank for a short time while it's active (I know it's a bit exxageration but you get my point). Btw you'll be able to use vanish for 3 ss with increased dmg, one with a teleport and/or gain 25 energy from it and you'll be able to use vanish exatly the same way for pvp purposes as right now.

I personally hate that I have to use vanish in my rotation, so I can't escape death on progress bosses when the raid wipes and I hope they won't ever try to make it a dps cooldown again.

Vanish was initially designed (back before the 2004 release) as a utility CD to drop threat. Early in wow's history threat management was a HUGE YUGE deal. Vanish let rogues do shitloads of dps without pulling agro off the tank.

As threat management has faded away (unfortunately imo), vanish became just a combat drop, useful in open world pve and in pvp, and in raids/dungeons to survive a wipe....not very important gameplay-wise, but very important thematically (how many people would lose their shit if it went away?)

Cata(i think) swings around, shadow dance and find weakness are created, and suddenly it's a decent, if long, DPS cd for sub. Still fairly shitty for the other two specs. Eventually nightstalker gives it some minor burst capability for ass/combat - it still sucks as a dps cd for those specs.

Legion appears, FW goes away, the shoulders appear, vanish is $$$ for all three specs.

My point? Vanish began as a defensive utility CD allowing for a combination of survivability and the ability to continue at full throttle dps. It's evolved in usage because of changes to the game, but only recently became a strong dps CD. And it is definitely a dps CD right now, though it can be used for other purposes (remember it's pretty versatile as a CD)

Hating that you have to use vanish as a dps cd instead of using it to avoid dying when you wipe to bosses sounds like you're a whiny bitch. (No offense intended)

Having the ability continue to be versatile in usage for every aspect of play is great - to do that they would need to add a synergistic effect similar to the way the shoulders buff crit while stealthed.

It could be anything, it doesn't have to be crit. They could even add an interesting talent (or row) that lets you choose an effect, and have different ones for each spec.

[Feali]

You could spec into Subterfuge and get a mini ShD out of it.

[Leetbeartank]

Hating that you have to use vanish as a dps cd instead of using it to avoid dying when you wipe to bosses sounds like you're a whiny bitch. (No offense intended)

He is right though. Vanish is now no longer available as a utility cool down. There are a ton of uses for vanish (in addition to saving durability). Vanish was also unique to rogue class design. It's still used as a threat dump (skittish). It increases rogues survivability (lol). There are a lot of uses for vanish still... But you can't use any of them because it's too big of a dps cool down. It's poor design and doesn't feel great using it as a dps cool down.