[MISTWEAVER] 7.X Discussion Thread

[Montegomery]

The Mistweaver thread/community often feels like a bad Mafia/Werewolf game where Town is too busy immolating themselves and each other to notice the scum handing them more gasoline.

If you want Mistweaver to be better next expansion spend less time on recriminations and more time sending your feedback to Blizzard and convincing others to do so as well.

[Buildapanda]

The Mistweaver thread/community often feels like a bad Mafia/Werewolf game where Town is too busy immolating themselves and each other to notice the scum handing them more gasoline.

If you want Mistweaver to be better next expansion spend less time on recriminations and more time sending your feedback to Blizzard and convincing others to do so as well.

The problem is only people like suplift get invited to early alpha hopefully Sleepyheals#1983 gets invited so someone who actually likes playing the spec gets to give feedback on it. Because by the time beta comes or any kind of playable product comes they are pretty hard set in not changing anything mechanically wise. Hopefully this time is different.

[Montegomery]

The problem is only people like suplift get invited to early alpha hopefully Sleepyheals#1983 gets invited so someone who actually likes playing the spec gets to give feedback on it. Because by the time beta comes or any kind of playable product comes they are pretty hard set in not changing anything mechanically wise. Hopefully this time is different.

The feedback we give now, and have been giving all expansion, matters. You don't need to be invited to the alpha or beta to tell Blizzard what you like about Mistweaver, what you don't, and what you hope to see in the coming expansion. Maybe Blizzard won't listen to you specifically, but the more Mistweavers who actually give feedback, the better an idea Blizzard will have of what Mistweavers want, the better the result will be.

[Supliftz]

The Mistweaver thread/community often feels like a bad Mafia/Werewolf game where Town is too busy immolating themselves and each other to notice the scum handing them more gasoline.

If you want Mistweaver to be better next expansion spend less time on recriminations and more time sending your feedback to Blizzard and convincing others to do so as well.

in the grand scheme of things a few people arguing on an irrelevant internet forum makes no difference

[Deleted]

Tons of feedback have been given during 7.2.5 ptr (and before) and for what? Mana issues that should have been corrected since EN and buff of spells to compensate the bad scaling of the spec (which is still present on live). Sure I don't forget they add a CD to EF (which is fine) and up a talent in a row where we already get two good talents. Nothing about the lvl 45 talents, nothing about lake of utility, nothing about our crap single target CD. Yesterday my tank ask for a damage reduction during HM KJ trials and I reply to ask Blizzard to give me something useful for this kind of situation. Jesus 20 enveloping mist on this fight with 60% overhealing just to keep the tanks alive that was dumb.

I remember that in early legion Lifecycle was suppose to be the talent to always consider in raid. That sounds dub now but it should have been a hint for us that "something is not quit right!". Live this talent choice does not matter, you can get some mana back from lifecycle or spirit of the crane or some extra free healing and damage reduction from mist wrap but that's just roughly 2% extra healing. That is just not good game design. Talents choice should matter and a specific gameplay associated to those should make a large difference between a good MW and an average MW which is no the case.

MW lack of interactions between spells and the mana management is just too poor. The results is a spec that play mostly by itself and that's why the limit to the spec is reached quickly in mythic raiding and high mm+. I am convinced that the bad scaling is not the only reason behind the relative low output of the spec in the hardest content. At the moment it is useless to say that in the official forum all you will received in return from high end MW raider is: learn to play and go visit peak of serenity because all those who think the spec is not fine have rerolled or have leaved the game.

I wonder what the MW MVP (and not only Sup) will give as feedback during alpha or if the dev realized that the spec needs a lot of work to perform well. Because if it's like now it will be "everything is fine". If a dev think that it is not, he will hear: "go the peak of serenity and LTP" ^o^

[Rife]

in the grand scheme of things 4 people playing an irrelevant spec in any content that matters makes no difference to blizzard

ftfy......

[Floopa]

ftfy......

5*

:wheelchair: nymzee coming through :wheelchair:

[cqwrteur]

I did nothing but highlight your awful attitude. In the end you tanked your reputation entirely on your own.

Support myta at all cost and that is why I think myta should be our moderator.

[pseudoJ]

I wasn't aware you were providing criticism towards me. I thought you were just making a story tbh. It's a good story and it is very entertaining.

Nah sups.. everyone is just jealous of your enlightenment so they attack you on purpose.... or are they?
The thing is, you are factually correct in a lot of things you say. The issue is mostly how you say it.

99% of players engage with heroic, and if mistweaver is fine in heroic the reality is mistweaver is in an acceptable state.

"It's ok if MW is the only class not viable for mythic raiding"... is essentially what you are arguing about with this comment. Gee.. I wonder why that makes people annoyed.

For me it's more import what than how you say it, however not everyone is that way.

BTW: Your whole rhetoric about the state of MW reminds me this other healing class which was kinda unique since it was meant to do healing through damage. Almost everyone was complaining that the class is in a bad shape except few extremely skilled individuals who could make it work -- and since they enjoyed the class they refused to be objective and admit that if they played another healer with the same effort they would be able to do so much more. Fortunately in this case Blizzard listened and did some changes -- moved talents around, tweaked some mechanics a little, even added a talent. What was important, they did that while keep the essence of the spec intact. All of sudden basically everyone was talking about how the class is in better shape now including the people who previously very loudly preached about how there is no need to change anything and that the class is totally fine as is and people are just incompetent idiots for not being able to perform... I can't blame them for changing their minds since it would be pretty hard to keep the old rhetoric against factual evidence of logs and people's overall satisfaction with the spec.... I can call them hypocrites though.

... yes that's discipline priest

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.I wonder what the MW MVP (and not only Sup) will give as feedback during alpha or if the dev realized that the spec needs a lot of work to perform well. Because if it's like now it will be "everything is fine". If a dev think that it is not, he will hear: "go the peak of serenity and LTP" ^o^

According to Peak of Serenity people there are no mana issues with MW.. you just play it wrong. I was told the other day to play mainly aroound RJW and EF + ReM. Casting vivify only with TFT and EnM only with T20 proc.... it helps, however it feel like I'm ignoring half of my kit (because I am...)

level 45 talent: Ehm....Even if the talents achieve the same in the end, they do it in a different manner. That makes it a choice... of playstyle.

Lack of interaction between spells? Uplifting trance, Life cycles, EF + Gust, TFT, TotM... these are all interactions between spells and the reason why I find MW really entertaining. Go play some paladin and see how many interactions you will find.

This is really so similar to pre-ToS discipline priest... I really believe the class really needs just minor changes
- make EnM hot tick faster for less
- lower the mana cost on vivfy and EnM (maybe lower the total healing of EnM?)
- move power from raw numbers into scaling
- maybe have a look if mastery could be made more
- personally I'd lower the CD on life cacoon / provide way to incrementally lower it / reset it. Not really important

Then MW is fine. The class has unique play style. Great mobility. Revival while no so potent is a great cooldown due to it's instant portion and short cooldown.
Holy priest doesn't have anything significantly special about it too and is just fine based on it's throughput -- lets see how they with T21 (smells like Druids and T19 vs T20).

[Supliftz]

"It's ok if MW is the only class not viable for mythic raiding"... is essentially what you are arguing about with this comment. Gee.. I wonder why that makes people annoyed.

That's actually not the point. The point is all blizzard really cares about is if a spec is viable in heroic.

Right now mistweaver is more than viable to clear content with. Limit got world 11th? with a mistweaver, and that's pre major KJ nerfs. Now, Mistweaver is likely not world first viable, but it is certainly viable for top 10 mythic. That level of raiding is far beyond what most people in this forum (including myself) engage with so that means mistweaver is fine to play.

fwiw I can't really fault people for believing that Blizzard truly cares about Mythic Raiding. The unfortunate reality is heroic performance matters a lot more than what 1% of players do. This was the reason why Disc Priest/Mistweaver got reworked this expansion.

BTW: Your whole rhetoric about the state of MW reminds me this other healing class which was kinda unique since it was meant to do healing through damage. Almost everyone was complaining that the class is in a bad shape except few extremely skilled individuals who could make it work -- and since they enjoyed the class they refused to be objective and admit that if they played another healer with the same effort they would be able to do so much more. Fortunately in this case Blizzard listened and did some changes -- moved talents around, tweaked some mechanics a little, even added a talent. What was important, they did that while keep the essence of the spec intact. All of sudden basically everyone was talking about how the class is in better shape now including the people who previously very loudly preached about how there is no need to change anything and that the class is totally fine as is and people are just incompetent idiots for not being able to perform... I can't blame them for changing their minds since it would be pretty hard to keep the old rhetoric against factual evidence of logs and people's overall satisfaction with the spec.... I can call them hypocrites though.

I know what you're trying to do here but this isn't a comparable example. For one, Mistweaver performance is overall better than Disc Priest back in 7.0-7.2. The spec doesn't require high level play to achieve comparable output, and the spec did not have a major drop-off in players coming off the last expansion.

I also would like to point out that the disc priest rework was very different to the Mistweaver rework. It's not like they just put a CD on PW:R and buff a few spells, like they did with Mistweaver.

I'm happy you're trying to be clever and one up me here. Makes for more interesting decision beyond just "hurr durr mistweaver has been bad since mop"

EDIT: I'm actually a bit confused why you're saying this to me specifically. Shouldn't you be saying this to people who die hard defended disc? all I remember doing was correcting people.

move power from raw numbers into scaling

I just want to point out there is no such thing as "raw numbers". The power of spells is directly tied to spell power coefficients. If mistweaver has issues with scaling, that means the spell power co-efficients on spells is far too low.

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ftfy......

i know ur memeing but this is 100% true

[Deleted]

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According to Peak of Serenity people there are no mana issues with MW.. you just play it wrong. I was told the other day to play mainly aroound RJW and EF + ReM. Casting vivify only with TFT and EnM only with T20 proc.... it helps, however it feel like I'm ignoring half of my kit (because I am...)

level 45 talent: Ehm....Even if the talents achieve the same in the end, they do it in a different manner. That makes it a choice... of playstyle.

Lack of interaction between spells? Uplifting trance, Life cycles, EF + Gust, TFT, TotM... these are all interactions between spells and the reason why I find MW really entertaining. Go play some paladin and see how many interactions you will find.

This is really so similar to pre-ToS discipline priest... I really believe the class really needs just minor changes
- make EnM hot tick faster for less
- lower the mana cost on vivfy and EnM (maybe lower the total healing of EnM?)
- move power from raw numbers into scaling
- maybe have a look if mastery could be made more
- personally I'd lower the CD on life cacoon / provide way to incrementally lower it / reset it. Not really important

Then MW is fine. The class has unique play style. Great mobility. Revival while no so potent is a great cooldown due to it's instant portion and short cooldown.
Holy priest doesn't have anything significantly special about it too and is just fine based on it's throughput -- lets see how they with T21 (smells like Druids and T19 vs T20).

Thanks but I have no mana issues in raid even with relative high haste amount and I don't need to go to the discord/peak of serenity to hear/read what I already know. I don't pretend to be excellent, I just know how to do my job as a MW.

The problem of the level 45 talent is not that they are not associated to a playstyle. The problem is that these talents are too weak (roughly 2% additional healing) which is not enough to make a difference between someone who succeed to keep the right playstyle and someone else who simply pick the talent randomly.

Uplifting trance is a random buff you cannot wait for this buff to press vivify in the hardest content. You can use RJW in between yes but RJW is a talent, not a core spell of the spec, it is supposed to be situational even if it can be used on most of the fight in ToS (except avatar). You are suppose to use effuse/SG between two uplifting trance but the cast time of SG with low haste is just too long. It has been asked more than 9000 time to reduce it to 1.5s for a good reason. In heroic and below you can use higher haste values and make a relative good use of SG (and the clouds) but good luck in mythic raiding with cc/vers gear.

Life cycle is a joke talent as long as ReM cost and spell power are not reduced like you suggest.

EF+gust is something you do without even realizing it. You do it on purpose only in mm+ which in this case, I agree, is an interesting interaction between spells

TFT has been very disappointing for me. It looks to be an awesome spells with deep decision making but ... it ends up only in vivify and renewing mist empowering. The 3 other choices are almost never worth the cost of a free vivify or an additional renewing mist. Don't repeat to the other MW but I have macro TFT to vivify and renewing mist that makes almost no difference in the output and I can focus on the fire below my feet.

TotM is a nice buff to track to optimize your dps. It could be a a deep and important mechanic if the mana back from spirit of the crane (and all talents of the line) was double.

If think that for next expansion TFT, talents row 45, 90 and 100 should be revamp or up.
-Reduce SG to 1.5 cast for a better and smother follow up of uplifting trance

-Lower the mana cost on EnM and yes reduced its total healing

-TFT only interact with vivify, renewing mist and EF. Vivify: add Gust of the mist on all vivify target, renewing mist: add gust of the mist on all target affected by renewing mist, EF let's triple the effect of gust of the mist on target with hots

-Talent row 45 (mana oriented approx +5% output): change on EnM will already up lifecycle but maybe tuned up (for heavy ST playstyle), double the mana back from spirit of the crane (versatile melee playstyle), remove mist wrap and replace it with a boring mana reduction of EF cost (for high AOE healing playstyle)

-Talent row 90 (ST, AOE or fistweaving approx +5% output): RJW, Statue or a talent base on the pvp version of way of the crane

-Talent row 100 (CD based row): Revival reduce to 2min, LC reduce to 1min30 or TFT CD reduced to 24s

[Floopa]

i agree in that i think the 45 row is the biggest problem MWs have right now. it's very weird, and very poor (in terms of output)

lifecycles should be reworked for effuse/vivify, but instead of a mana cost reduction on both it should read something like: "Casting Effuse causes your next Vivify to cost 50% less mana. Casting Vivify causes your next Effuse to additionally heal an injured friendly target within 25 yards." (this would also proc GoM)

SotC should be reworked to make DPS a viable part of your healing strategy, reading something like: "Rising Sun Kick now has 2 charges, no longer costs mana, and instead regenerates 2% mana. Teachings of the Monastery now stacks 5 times, and Teachings of the Monastery increases your healing done by 1% per stack. Each time Blackout Kick deals damage, you have a 20% chance to gain a charge of Rising Sun Kick."

mist wrap should read: "Increases the duration of Enveloping Mist by 2 seconds and it's healing bonus by 20%, and reduces the mana cost by 10%, additionally Soothing Mist can now be channelled while moving and heals for an additional 50% while Enveloping Mist is active on the target.

[Caprix]

I find sotc a decent talent. Returns about the same mana as a wisdom buff when standing in melee is possible/desirable.

[Rife]

I find sotc a decent talent. Returns about the same mana as a wisdom buff when standing in melee is possible/desirable.

It feels counter-intuitive because you're only spamming BoK when there is nothing to heal and thus no need for mana but when people are eating damage you cant BoK.

Even in situations where those times are cyclical and you can BoK when no damage is going out for more mana when it is going out it's still a talent that only returns mana for some fraction of the fight whereas Mist Wrap and Lifecycles are useful always.

[Deleted]

is that a real post

[Myta]

MW is a garbage spec that heals through garbage means. The class rework in Legion utterly failed, and Essence Font is a poor replacement for Uplift (It's like Rushing Jade Wind but wider this time!). In attempt to make the spec easier, they made it the most awful and unintuitive spec that requires you to ignore half your spellbook, and you have to take Mana Tea just to heal properly because Blizzard forgot to remove our inflated spell costs after losing infinite mana.

How anyone can think Mistweaver is 'fine' is beyond me. Now it's not just the least played spec of the least played class, now it's not even fun OR good.

And the sooner people realize this the sooner we can have actual changes made. But this requires shouting Blizzard's ear off during 8.0, and ignoring literally everything Sups has to say because he hasn't said anything relevant or interesting about Mistweavers in over a year.

[cqwrteur]

MW is a garbage spec that heals through garbage means. The class rework in Legion utterly failed, and Essence Font is a poor replacement for Uplift (It's like Rushing Jade Wind but wider this time!). In attempt to make the spec easier, they made it the most awful and unintuitive spec that requires you to ignore half your spellbook, and you have to take Mana Tea just to heal properly because Blizzard forgot to remove our inflated spell costs after losing infinite mana.

How anyone can think Mistweaver is 'fine' is beyond me. Now it's not just the least played spec of the least played class, now it's not even fun OR good.

And the sooner people realize this the sooner we can have actual changes made. But this requires shouting Blizzard's ear off during 8.0, and ignoring literally everything Sups has to say because he hasn't said anything relevant or interesting about Mistweavers in over a year.

I love you myta. xd

Buff MW = Make op specs players (like me) unhappy = more unsubs = Lose profit for blizzard. HAHAHAHA

[Rife]

Lol @ all this Sups hate. Blizzard should give him a job as MW manager because he cops all the flak for the spec anyway.

In MoP Blizzard introduced MW which changed the healing paradigm.
In Legion Blizzard redesigned Disc which changed the healing paradigm again.

MoP MW and Legion Disc are my favourite specs in the game but it seems like Blizzard only want 1 nutty healing spec at a time.

Does this mean in 8.0 Blizz are going to change the whole healing paradigm again with a new spec? Cos if the beautiful bastard that designed original MW and the Disc revamp makes something else nutty I'm going to be torn between that and Disc.

But if they do the same thing with Disc in 8.0 as they did with MW in 7.0 i'll be sad. I don't know if I can deal with the roller coaster of emotions and heart-break again. Blizzard pls.

[Supliftz]

It's extremely unlikely they change anything fundamental about specs in 8.0. Mostly because the way in which most healing specs is fine.

The healing i'm predicting for a mini rework is actually holy priest. Mostly because the spec doesn't really make sense

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MW is a garbage spec that heals through garbage means. The class rework in Legion utterly failed, and Essence Font is a poor replacement for Uplift (It's like Rushing Jade Wind but wider this time!). In attempt to make the spec easier, they made it the most awful and unintuitive spec that requires you to ignore half your spellbook, and you have to take Mana Tea just to heal properly because Blizzard forgot to remove our inflated spell costs after losing infinite mana.

How anyone can think Mistweaver is 'fine' is beyond me. Now it's not just the least played spec of the least played class, now it's not even fun OR good.

And the sooner people realize this the sooner we can have actual changes made. But this requires shouting Blizzard's ear off during 8.0, and ignoring literally everything Sups has to say because he hasn't said anything relevant or interesting about Mistweavers in over a year.

hey man if i didn't say anything relevant, why did blizzard choose to agree with me when I provided feedback about obviously overpowered things :thinking:

i also find it sorta ironic that you said I haven't done anything relevant on mistweaver, when you, yourself haven't done anything relevant on your mistweaver for a while.

what happened to you myta, you've become so jaded and toxic in your old age. is something wrong?

[Caprix]

It feels counter-intuitive because you're only spamming BoK when there is nothing to heal and thus no need for mana but when people are eating damage you cant BoK.

Even in situations where those times are cyclical and you can BoK when no damage is going out for more mana when it is going out it's still a talent that only returns mana for some fraction of the fight whereas Mist Wrap and Lifecycles are useful always.

I don't care when mana is returned, as long as it doesn't make me reach 100%. It's like saying a mana pot only returns mana for 1s or 10s (if channeled pot) over the whole fight. Who cares?