So, can we call Legion a bust for anyone who played Ret, and what's in it for 8.0?

[Wrecktangle]

Wrath is not holy power, holy power is a combo point system where as wrath would be equivalent to the way demonology warlock use to function while they have meta or spriests now. My idea is to have wrath as a build up mechanic...and when it fills up, wings (Avenging wrath) becomes available and many of our abilities change appearance and, of course, hit harder.

Lol that sounds like MY idea. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...bilities-etc-)

Quite literally identical to what I built from the sounds of it.

I'm not complaining about viability.
I'm talking about many of the core concepts, abilities, etc.
Consecration, Seals, Auras, Blessings (Wisdom, Might, Kings, etc) - watered down or removed.

Granted, we got some cool new stuff as time went by, but some design decisions are so bad...
The current Holy Wrath... no words.
Long Arm of the Law was a cool concept worth improving, but let's scrap it entirely.
So between...
a) D3's Falling Sword (Turalyon's Might)
or...
b) D3's Steed Charge (Divine Steed)
,,,screw Draenei, let's go with Divine Steed, because instantly summoning a mount for 3 seconds is hype.

To be fair as a career ret there's a lot of those abilities that just aren't interesting the way they were implemented. I dislike blessings because they're fire and forget. I dislike Seals because other than Blood/Martyr, they were just ST or AOE toggles, the ST version having some asinine ramp up. Auras were just more fire and forget passive buffs, that really didn't belong on Ret IMO in the first place. Consecration was boring, but a neat idea. Would like to have seen something more interesting built off this concept.

LAotL was great. I would have loved a no frills gap closer in Turalyon's Might, but not that triple click garbage we got in beta. I personally dislike the steed charge, but I understand why some do like it.

[Nurvus]

To be fair as a career ret there's a lot of those abilities that just aren't interesting the way they were implemented.

I agree.
But they could easily be improved.
Seals had issues in Vanilla (but back then a lot of damage was passive), but every change Blizzard made to them just focused on convenience instead of gameplay.
Consecration was extremely powerful when Paladin had few abilities. Now it's just a filler AoE.
In the meanwhile, both Defile and Death and Decay are given all sorts of cool iterations.
Blizzard had Aura Mastery in WotLK, and in Legion came up with a very cool concept for Holy, but didn't expand that concept to Prot or Retribution.

I just hate that Blizzard shove Divine Steed down everyone's throat instead of making it an option.

Paladin and Shaman are two of the classes that got most of their initial class fantasy butchered.

[Tyze]

I'm fine with Holy Power personally
Remove Judgement debuff, give back Judgement speed buff instead
Give back Hammer of Wrath
Make Consecration baseline (with the glyph for prot palas in wod)

[ComputerNerd]

Some people also find joining ISIS fun.
Some people fan justify anything and everything with rhetorics on how anything and everything is down to personal choice or feeling.
But there also must be a common sense somewhere in there.
A line in the sand.

To find fun in current version of retribution is to be a deviant, down there along with coprophilliacs.
But hey, once more I say this- I accept and tolerate deviants.Them times, much progressive.

Repeating the same flawed argument isnt proving anything.
Fun is entirely subjective.
Someone can find a spec fun when you do not, and you can't tell them they are wrong.
Yet that is what you are saying you can do.
So stop being upset that your opinion isn't actually universal, that someone can disagree with you.

It is a fact that something specific will not offer the same to everyone.
The same amount of fun, the same amount of immersion, the same amount of replayability or anything else.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Repeating the same flawed argument isnt proving anything.
Fun is entirely subjective.
Someone can find a spec fun when you do not, and you can't tell them they are wrong.
Yet that is what you are saying you can do.
So stop being upset that your opinion isn't actually universal, that someone can disagree with you.

It is a fact that something specific will not offer the same to everyone.
The same amount of fun, the same amount of immersion, the same amount of replayability or anything else.

No.
Fun is subjective.
Some people can find tapping their foot in an empty room to be fun.
Finding fun in a dull, castrated, differently abled spec does not make said spec good.
Now do you like tapping your foot? Disregard the fact you have no fething clue regarding Ret?

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Subjective fun, sure as sure.
Would you find fun in jumping into a BOILING CAULDRON OF SWINE EJACULATE?
Then surely you would find Ret to be fun.

[Osmeric]

I need to cast Lay on Hands to keep that guy from dying!

Oh wait, I get a dps buff if he dies. Never mind...

[BlakeArt]

Yeah, we get it, you dislike ret and you're free to feel that way, i'm not judging.
But may be it's time to move on, may be it's time for you to play something that might please you instead ? You know, instead of suffering and write down here how bad you feel for those that dare like this horrible spec and having fun from it.

This mental masturbation about how bad a spec you play is freaking going on since, like, ever ! I remember how people spit on WoD and MoP iteration of ret, and how good those became afterward, guess what, next expac, people will find Legion ret wayyyyy better than the new one.

[Ellarielle]

I need to cast Lay on Hands to keep that guy from dying!

Oh wait, I get a dps buff if he dies. Never mind...

hahahahahahaha!

[Morally Grey Storm]

Yeah, we get it, you dislike ret and you're free to feel that way, i'm not judging.
But may be it's time to move on, may be it's time for you to play something that might please you instead ? You know, instead of suffering and write down here how bad you feel for those that dare like this horrible spec and having fun from it.

This mental masturbation about how bad a spec you play is freaking going on since, like, ever ! I remember how people spit on WoD and MoP iteration of ret, and how good those became afterward, guess what, next expac, people will find Legion ret wayyyyy better than the new one.

Suffering is a choice, and we can refuse it.
That is the wisdom of Qun.

Which is why I play arms.
But as far as I can tell, these forums are used for conversation, hence as conversations go, I Telegraph my feelings regarding the spec I cared for the most, the one I dedicated 9 years of playing, and which has a special spot in my heart.
Would you be as kind as not deny me this privelege?

[Shelly]

When the only downtime we have is for mandatory abilities that don't interact with it, it still counts as nulifying downtime. It's still a passive buff.
I'd rather the window was bigger, with a bigger buff.
I'd like abilities like Execution Sentence to make sense - when it main advantage is using it outside Mastery and hit during Mastery, yet you always have Mastery around when you need it, that advantage is gone.

If you're not going to be using your spender anyway, and judgment doesn't effect your builders then why are you judging?

Build around the deadtime.

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Mind you I don't play rogue, but I thought they changed that last expac didn't they? I agree that a lot of resources are functionally similar, but assuming my Rogue knowledge is correct, CB is clearly the closest comparison. If I'm wrong about that, it's up to debate for sure.

I think you are correct and I am mistaken.

I understand what you're saying here, but you're wrong. DP would be great, if it was even remotely competitive with Crusade. Since it's not, it's not an option. Blade of Wrath and Divine Hammer are your only talent choices in that tier. And that choice is 100% dependent on whether or not there are 2(+) targets, or 1. It is not a decision based on fluidity or fun, or anything else. It's AOE or ST.

It's going to be situational. I would never grind my dailies using Crusade. It's pretty much terrible outside of a raiding context (although I do love having Soul since it means I don't need to swap talents for World Bosses - not that I ever did.) When you need to kill 10 boars just getting a lucky streak of 5 or 6 TV is far more useful than blowing through a 2 minute CD when your next quest is 30s away.

Not in scope of the discussion.

Tier being baked in is certainly speculative, however the benefits given by current tier to our rotation are certainly worth talking about. Having a 3HP generator removes a significant amount of dead space in our rotation and allows us to use judgment more often since we don't need to hold it for an extra global when rebuilding to 5 HP.

So you're in LFR gear, using feely math, rather than actual hard evidence to make generalizations?

Yup. Unabashedly.

And yes, I am probably making a few hyperboles in my speculation. That said if you have access to much better gear I challenge you to bring your mastery up to at least 58% if not higher.

Although if your character name is also "wrecktangle" you've got a long way to go.

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People preferring Wrath is just the nostalgia talking. That and the huge buffs and the tier set from ICC. MoP (and to a lesser extent, Cata) were objectively just better for Ret overall. More utility, more ability to offheal effectively without completely gimping your DPS, higher skill ceiling in general but especially for council fights, more mobility options.. yeah.

MoP and Cata had one huge problem.

Inquisition.

Sorry but keeping up a 30% mastery buff was far less engaging or interesting than our current judgment window.

[Reith]

MoP and Cata had one huge problem.

Inquisition.

Sorry but keeping up a 30% mastery buff was far less engaging or interesting than our current judgment window.

Inquisition was fine, at least it wasn't tied to a target, and it got significantly better when it was changed to 60 seconds instead of 30. I'd take 30 second Inquisition over the current Judgment any day. The current way our mastery interacts with multiple targets is just sloppy. It's not meaningful gameplay. It's just annoying. It was better as a passive, at least you could rely on it then instead of having yet another layer of RNG.

[Eurytos]

Inquisition was fine, at least it wasn't tied to a target, and it got significantly better when it was changed to 60 seconds instead of 30. I'd take 30 second Inquisition over the current Judgment any day. The current way our mastery interacts with multiple targets is just sloppy. It's not meaningful gameplay. It's just annoying. It was better as a passive, at least you could rely on it then instead of having yet another layer of RNG.

Agree.

This is another one of thie things Ret once had that made things interesting, but should have been a talent.

Seal Swapping, Inquisition, and other things like this are cool. The ideas are cool. Make them talents.

Honestly, I think talents should be tailored in a way that there is a viable choice of talents that make a given spec fairly simple to play. And also choices that make things harder to play. Obviously, the harder way to play would have the added benefit of a higher top end. Like, we have three talents per row, we have three main difficulties of raiding, normal, heroic and mythic. Make them correspond-ish. At least where the damage talents are concerned. Skill should have a payoff. It takes some skill to seal swap, it takes some skill to optimize inquisition. It takes some skill to optimize divine purpose procs. Some more or less than others.

They talk all about choices being interesting. A pick three of inquisition, empowered seals, crusade, divine purpose, final verdict, justicars vengeance, guardian of the ancient kings...would be interesting. Something like DP, FV, GotAK is likely a pretty easy play style. Whereas, Inquisition, DP, and GotAK might take a bit more skill. Inquisition, EmpSeals, and Justicar's Vengeance might be a wholly different play style that might be tedious, and tough to manage, requiring more skill to optimize, but it might result in the highest output. Say the dps difference between these two talent choices is 3-5%, with perfect execution. Whats the average player gonna pick? Maybe the dps difference is more significant for a less skilled player. They may even do less dps with the higher skill cap play style.

This is the interesting choices Blizz always talks about, I think. I've been playing Ret for almost 10 years now, I've raided mythics, but I only really do heroic raids these days...I might go with a different play style every week! But theres got to be choices, and right now, as much as they have talked about it, I don't think there is a whole lot of interesting choices going on with Ret. Hell, they could even make colossus judgment a talent choice. I would probably never take it, personally. Even if it was the "best" talent. For my raiding purposes, I probably wouldn't need to. And unless I really had to, i would go with something else.

[ComputerNerd]

No.
Fun is subjective.
Some people can find tapping their foot in an empty room to be fun.
Finding fun in a dull, castrated, differently abled spec does not make said spec good.
Now do you like tapping your foot? Disregard the fact you have no fething clue regarding Ret?

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Subjective fun, sure as sure.
Would you find fun in jumping into a BOILING CAULDRON OF SWINE EJACULATE?
Then surely you would find Ret to be fun.

Some people find something different to how you find it.
And that is what you seem to have a problem accepting.
What makes a spec good isn't universal.
You saying that something is or isn't fun is a personal opinion only, and as much as you want to think otherwise does not simply make it true.
Nearly every change to a spec is going to be divisive.
Some will prefer it before, some will prefer it afterwards.

You simply preferred it before, and that is fine.
Just don't tell people they are wrong for feeling different only because you say so.

[tru]

Fun is subjective BUT fun is not stolen concepts. We have enough combo points (no matter what color or what you call em they are combo points) and we didn't need or want another cs dbuf window gameplay it was already unique to wars.

I like someones idea I seen in here about maybe building a wrath gauge.. then i think well it will work no different than energy/rage/focus.
I know im beating a dead horse here but I was never a pally until legion(i did level mine in bc and kept level cap in every xpac) where so many BAD class designs made me finally explore other options, I remember rets design in Wrath and... it just takes the cake. You think of a Pally as the good guy wanting to protect..stuff n things and in order to do damage they have to sacrifice some of themselves (do damage to yourself to do damage to the target). I mean that was a unique concept and hell only other class that has ever damaged themselves that I know of are locks with hellfire(gone) and lifetap.

I don't HATE the playstyle now.. I just feel like the c-team was in charge of to much of implementation and the interns told them what to make for just about every class.

Last tidbit why have I not seen anymore people complaining about the new judgement visual? Its just a odd hammer of wrath... Man I want the old judge visual back.

[xxcloud417xx]

Yeah, we get it, you dislike ret and you're free to feel that way, i'm not judging.
But may be it's time to move on, may be it's time for you to play something that might please you instead ? You know, instead of suffering and write down here how bad you feel for those that dare like this horrible spec and having fun from it.

This mental masturbation about how bad a spec you play is freaking going on since, like, ever ! I remember how people spit on WoD and MoP iteration of ret, and how good those became afterward, guess what, next expac, people will find Legion ret wayyyyy better than the new one.

Idk if it's the OP that you're referring to but you're simply wrong on a few accounts and your post is just unnecessary. I like Ret, I believe I actually mentioned that I like the less proc-heavy feel of the rotation and just the overall feel of the spec is nice to me, I think it feels more deliberate than just RNG proc whack-a-mole with glowing buttons. The spec is far from perfect though right now and it's been unbalanced and messy in quite a few ways since Legion launch but that's never been properly addressed. That's fucking frustrating and yeah makes you feel like this expac is a bust for getting your favourite spec actually be competitive this expansion at some point.

That's what I'm talking about here. Wondering if maybe Blizzard has a fix up their sleeve or it's just bust for Ret now that we're so close to the end here, and also asking people what they expect out of 8.0.

[Fight4Fun]

WoD Ret was best and smoothest rotation for me, Legion on Cata lvl of clunkiness

[Kobor]

I like the spells and playstyle as it is now, just need some dps buff (currently in last 2 weeks log we are dead last), maybe 10% will put us into middle and we need more mobility.

[Reith]

Last tidbit why have I not seen anymore people complaining about the new judgement visual? Its just a odd hammer of wrath... Man I want the old judge visual back.

Oh yeah, another thing they raped judgement with is fricken TRAVEL TIME. It used to come from above the target. No no no we can't have that. So basically, you can't use it on distant targets without a major dps loss, you can't use it without facing the target, you have to rely on RNG to spread the judgment debuff to multiple targets, and it has travel time. What were they thinking, seriously?

[Morally Grey Storm]

What were they thinking, seriously?

"That's some good shit, pass it up".

[Nightwinds13]

I feel like the biggest problem with Ret at the moment is the blandness to it and the fact that outside of horse it feels like you move at the speed of smell.