The Russian T-50 PAK FA is trash, and India wants out.

[Akka]

Pretty surprised India were in a contract with Russia tbh.

Then again they hate the US but surprised they don't get stuff from the rest of the EU i.e Germany, France and the UK.

Wasn't the IAF precisely buying Rafale from France ? Or is it still mired in bureaucracyland ?

[Skroe]

Fighter jets aren't exactly the countries' forte and as a german I find that comment rather cringe worthy. Frankly at this point I have the feeling that when it comes to renewing military equipment no country seems up to the task, especially aeronautics and space travel devices. Every of those face-lifts seem to be steeped in scandals and general issues.

The biggest reason is that the capabilities demanded beyond advanced 4th Generation Aircraft (late model F-16s, Eurofighters, that sort of thing) are expensive and difficult to achieve.

The F-35 is the best example of this. Consider the F-15 vs the F-16. The F-15 came first. The F-16 arrived a few years later and while it incorporated some new technologies (fly-by-wire) that the F-15 did not, was squarely within the same broad generational concept. By contrast the F-35, while designed to be more numerous and more multi-role than the F-22, in so many ways incorporates what you'd expect a full blown successor of the F-22 to have in every way except the shape of the airframe. In some regards it is like a 6th generation fighter implemented with 5th generation technologies, 15 years too early.

One of my personal beliefs about the F-35 is that, if it had been done again, would have and should have far closer related to the F-22 - much more a half step up than a full step - just in a smaller package. And that much of the difficult "moonshots" of the F-35 would be left to the F-22 successor, which is a program we'd start about now. Basically the big air superiority fighter should be the "technological leap", and the smaller, cheaper "low fighter" should have been "modest improvements, cheaper price, smaller package" implementation.

This proposal has some serious issues though, because the F-22 has some serious problems on the software side that will never be rectified.

I think in general it is not really appreciated by the general public exactly how many crazy, contradictory things the Pentagon asked in the F-35 in particular, and how big a step up it is from the F-22. The next 20 years of US military fixed wing aviation will all owe something to the F-35. It's proven not just to be a fighter jet, but a major technological development program.

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ULA still has a monopoly on any KH-11/Orion/etc. launches, at least until SpaceX decides to put in the effort to become able to handle satellites of that length.

With the Falcon Heavy, they'll start to make their attempts to first certify, and then entice the NRO to do just that.

Putting a enormous spy satellite in orbit with the Falcon Heavy or another super heavy lift rocket would be very much in the Air Force's interests. It's why they just dropped $40 million more on Raptor engine development yesterday.

[Elim Garak]

Vaijinder K Thakur, retired IAF squadron leader and defense analyst disagreement with the Air Force assessment of capability, saying that the current Russian FGFA prototype, known as Su-57, features the AL-41F1 engine. But the production variant of FGFA would be fitted with the Product 30 engine which is 30 percent lighter, features improved thrust, and has better fuel efficiency and fewer moving parts. That results in improved reliability and 30 percent lower life-cycle cost, Thakur said.

Without having operated U.S. fighters, the IAF is hardly in a position to pronounce judgment on the comparative long-term operating costs of Russian and U.S. fighters, Thakur added.

They are bargaining. That's all. That's the way it works in that part of the earth.

Also I find it funny for someone who says that Russia sucks to constantly compare it to USA as if they were on the same level.

[Deleted]

Stealth plane conspiracies to discussions about AKs to space rockets. Yup, this is mmo-ot fer sure.

[ParanoiD84]

India should buy from israel instead like they usually do.

[Deleted]

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017...m-with-russia/

Bad news for the ailing Russian aerospace / defense industry.

Their Su-35S in a F-22/Movie Prop costume has fallen far, far under the performance targets and gone way, way over budget. Doing an F-22 (much less an F-22 beater) on the cheap turns out to be a nonsense proposition.

Would not be surprised if the T-50 / PAK FA program never goes much further than the handful of prototypes and pre-production aircraft Russia has, and they end up just buying Su-27 variants forever.

India will look domestically, or to future US or European designs.

Good news for Western interests in Asia was we tighten our relationship with India. But how many Russian defense jobs will be lost? And how can Russia compete on an international market that is going to see a surge of 5th generation designs over the next 15 years?

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017...m-with-russia/

Another military hardware thread. Can you guys not do this sort of thing privately?

[CostinR]

It isn't particularly shocking to see relations break down between Russia and India on this matter: India has for a long time demanded access to the top secret manufacturing information behind the SU-57 and Russia has said hell no again and again.

Why? Because Russia already has seen much of their modern arsenal or variants of it fall into the hands of Western Nations and/or China ( like how China conveniently got access to SU-33s courtesy of Ukraine ).

Would not be surprised if the T-50 / PAK FA program never goes much further than the handful of prototypes and pre-production aircraft Russia has, and they end up just buying Su-27 variants forever.

Now THIS is a real fantasy to believe. Russia is quite eager to replace much of their ground and air forces in large part because their rivals have had access to those technologies for years and know exactly how they work.

Then again if I was following western media sources on national security/defense I'd believe all kinds fantasy scenario about the capabilities of the Russian military:

That was before Crimea, before the War in Donbass, before Russia intervened in Syria and turned the tide and before Russia fired dozens of cruise missiles from corvettes.

So no Russia will buy a whole bunch of SU-57s, probably around 200 or so, and maintain it's place as the dominant air power of Europe ( minus Turkey since they are smart enough to buy enough of them and of the best version to make a difference, not that Turkey will fight Russia anytime soon ).

[Skroe]

No the problem is the russians want 32 billion in the end and India has sticker shock. We (usa) are building carriers for them currently. To suggest "we won't share" is absurd. India doesn't want to provide the entry fee. The same problem they have with russia at far less entry price than we'd ever charge. If they are crying over 32 billion what makes you think they could ever join in our project that is estimated well over 1 trillion in cost in the end? Do they just want spare parts for no plane at that price?

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/i...1/1039202.html

India could just buy from china instead?

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the...-stealth-14299

Correction. The US isn't building carriers for India. The US gifted India critical technology for carriers that India will have to implement on its own as part of its own domestic carrier.

The US vision is for India to have 4-5 50,000-70,000 ton carriers of it's own in coming decades that implement the US electromagnetic launch system, and use US arresting wires and other systems. This will force China to factor in Indian carriers into its defense equation and make it difficult for China to expand its influence into the Indian Ocean.

Furthermore by implementing the launch and landing systems, US / Western carrier based aircraft (such as the F/A-18, F-35 and Rafale) will be able to launch and land on any Indian carrier, much like the US lands F/A-18s on the French Carrier DeGualle, which impliment's America's launch and landing systems. This will promote India and Western countries training together. And allow Indian owned fighters (be it an imported design, or a new domestic design) to land on western carriers.

The icing n the cake is that this would pull India's defense needs sharply into the Western domain in its most critical areas. This is an enormous boon for the US and a catastrophe for Russia, for whom India has been one of its largest customers for decades. Unlike the US, Russia's defense industry is largely state downed and dependent on exports. Losing India would be a cataclysm for their reliable cashflow, and one not easily fixed considering that China is debuting aggressive designs to dominate the "lower" end of the market (countries that can't afford expensive western platforms).

It is the West's interests to do anything and everything to chip away at, and ultimate collapse the Russian defense industry. By targeting on of their biggest customers, India, the West (and the US in particular) is killing a lot of birds with one stone and making aggressive strides in this respect.


Remember: the most reliable, effective way to to beat the Russians and keep them down is not with guns or missiles, but with economics.

[Deleted]

Pretty surprised India were in a contract with Russia tbh.

Then again they hate the US but surprised they don't get stuff from the rest of the EU i.e Germany, France and the UK.

Russia offered a much cheaper deal for comparative aircraft.

Sadly it turns out they might as well be biplanes

[Skroe]

It isn't particularly shocking to see relations break down between Russia and India on this matter: India has for a long time demanded access to the top secret manufacturing information behind the SU-57 and Russia has said hell no again and again.

Why? Because Russia already has seen much of their modern arsenal or variants of it fall into the hands of Western Nations and/or China ( like how China conveniently got access to SU-33s courtesy of Ukraine ).



Now THIS is a real fantasy to believe. Russia is quite eager to replace much of their ground and air forces in large part because their rivals have had access to those technologies for years and know exactly how they work.

Then again if I was following western media sources on national security/defense I'd believe all kinds fantasy scenario about the capabilities of the Russian military:

That was before Crimea, before the War in Donbass, before Russia intervened in Syria and turned the tide and before Russia fired dozens of cruise missiles from corvettes.

Russia wanted to replace it's entire army with T-14s Armata tanks and AFV derivitives too. And that vision is kaput for the same reason: these things cost money, yo. And Russia doesn't have enough.

So it's back to the good old Russian staple - making it Soviet handmedowns last forever.

Nobody doubts Russia wants an F-22 beater. Nobody doubts that Russia could, with enough money and time, make an aircraft that, if not beat it, could be a more serious challenge to it than the laughable PAK FA (which again, is little more than a Su-35S in an angular costume). But could Russia afford to manufacture 200 copies of a $180 million fighter? Hell no.

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Another military hardware thread. Can you guys not do this sort of thing privately?

No. Too bad.

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They are bargaining. That's all. That's the way it works in that part of the earth.

Also I find it funny for someone who says that Russia sucks to constantly compare it to USA as if they were on the same level.

Bargaining was earlier in the year:

https://thediplomat.com/2017/05/indi...-deal-is-lost/

India and Russia have hit another hurdle in moving forward with one of their most prestigious joint defense projects, the co-development and production of the the Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), known in India as the Perspective Multirole Fighter (PMF).

A senior Indian Air Force official revealed last week that Russia is demanding “an unaffordable price for the aircraft,” Defense News reported on May 24. According to the official, Moscow is allegedly demanding $7 billion from India as part of its share in the development of the fifth generation fighter jet, given that a work-sharing agreement currently under negotiation includes the transfer of sensitive Russian defense technology.

“India is not in a position to pay this kind of money, and the aircraft project appears to be lost,” the official said. India has been driving a hard bargain and the Indian Air Force official’s comment are likely intended to strengthen New Delhi’s bargaining position vis-à-vis Russia. Indian officials in May announced that the deal would not include tech transfers. “We are co-developers. There is nothing called technology transfer in this project,“ a government official said.

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The transfer of sensitive defense technology from Russia to India has been one of the most contentious issues between the two sides right from the start, as I explained in March:

Before moving on, India wants a guarantee that it will be able to upgrade the fighter jet in the future without Russian support, which would require Moscow sharing source codes (sensitive computer code that controls the fighter jet’s various systems — the key to an aircraft’s electronic brains). In addition, the FGFA should directly support India’s advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) program — a separate Indian fifth generation fighter project.

At the beginning of the month, the issue appeared to have been resolved, according to Indian accounts, although Russia refused to comment on the negotiations publicly.

Following the official kickoff of the joint project in 2007, both countries concluded a preliminary $295 million design contract for the co-development of the FGFA/PMF in 2010. Right from the beginning both sides were at loggerheads, as I reported elsewhere:

Delays were caused by New Delhi and Moscow disagreeing over many fundamental aspects of the joint development project including work and cost share, aircraft technology, as well as the number of aircraft to be ordered. After evaluating the first PAK FA T-50 prototype (the Russian prototype of the PMF), the Indian Air Force (IAF) wanted more than 40 changes addressing, among other things, perceived weaknesses in the plane’s engine, stealth, and weapon-carrying capabilities.

India and Russia also disagreed over the number of aircraft to be produced:

Russia announced in late 2015 that it would only induct a squadron (18-24 aircraft) of PAK FA fighter aircraft, and procure additional Sukhoi Su-35 aircraft instead. The original deal involved Russia procuring 250 and India 144 aircraft at a cost of around $30 billion by 2022. As a result, India threatened to abandon the project in its entirety. Russia in turn made a number of concessions, including an offer to cut down its financial contribution from $6 to $3.7 billion for three PAK FA T-50 prototypes and substantial technology transfers.

According to senior Russian defense officials, the Russian Air Force could possibly start receiving the first serial-produced fifth-generation T-50 (PAK FA) multi-role fighter jet in 2018.

This is the end. It's over.

[Deleted]

But how many Russian defense jobs will be lost? And how can Russia compete on an international market that is going to see a surge of 5th generation designs over the next 15 years?

Can't really say that the thought would make me feel sorry.

[Skroe]

Yet the Eurofighter is an outstanding jet.

The Eurofighter is one of the great achievements of European defense procurement.

I would love to see a Su-35S go up against a Eurofighter with the MBDA Meteor. The Su-35S would do all sorts of students. The Eurofighter would send the Russian pilot home in several small boxes.

If the Eurofighter did not exist, the US would need hundreds more F-22s to defend Europe. Because it does, the US can just get by with the mostly inadequate number we have. Europe needs to keep building them and teaming them with F-35s as they enter service.

[Deleted]

No. Too bad.

It was just a thought because, you know, it makes you look infantile. You sound like a four-year old shouting "big tank!" repeatedly. This is coming from a guy who plays a game with space goats and cow people in it. That's how bad this shit sounds, you make me feel like a grown-up.

Even without much interest in the subject it is fairly obviously that your comments on the actual issue are fairly worthless because you are so deeply wedded to your own military-industrial complex and nationalist bias. You sound like you are getting off on this, which is never a good way to sound.

To state the fucking obvious: it doesn't matter who has the best tanks, planes or whatever because there hasn't been a conventional war since Desert Storm.

[Skroe]

Can't really say that the thought would make me feel sorry.

Me neither.

This has absolutely enormous implications for Russia though. Aircraft programs don't just happen over night.

The US has an item it'll be hawking around - the F-35 from Lockheed Martin. Boeing will probably put on the market it's own stealth fighter in the next 15 years too.

Europe is in the last decade of Eurofighter sales, but has modern upgraded versions of the Gripen and Rafale doing good business. And there is likely going to be a 5th generation program starting in the next five years.

China's J-31 is the worst of all worlds for Russia. It targets the market segment that Russia does.

Russia needs an item to sell to keep its factories open. Selling Su-27 variants isn't going to get it very much further, which is why the PAK FA program existed in part.

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It was just a thought because, you know, it makes you look infantile. You sound like a four-year old shouting "big tank!" repeatedly. This is coming from a guy who plays a game with space goats and cow people in it. That's how bad this shit sounds, you make me feel like a grown-up.

Even without much interest in the subject it is fairly obviously that your comments on the actual issue are fairly worthless because you are so deeply wedded to your own military-industrial complex and nationalist bias. You sound like you are getting off on this, which is never a good way to sound.

To state the fucking obvious: it doesn't matter who has the best tanks, planes or whatever because there hasn't been a conventional war since Desert Storm.

If you don't like this thread, there's others. Go discuss insecure teenagers emotional instability, people justifying being creepy cyberstalkers, gaming chairs or something else entirely boring.

Just a thought.

[Deleted]

If you don't like this thread, there's others. Go discuss insecure teenagers emotional instability, people justifying being creepy cyberstalkers, gaming chairs or something else entirely boring.

Just a thought.

As you have the freedom to start such threads I have the freedom to question them, whether you like it or not.

[Mavett]

Surprised it didn't happen earlier, Russia doesn't really have the money to procure a counterpart 5th gen stealth fighter, i believe it will be the same with the T-14 and all vehicles based on its chassis, it will remain mostly as May 9th parade vehicle.

They will stick to making a better Anti-air and Anti-ship systems to somehow counter Western Air and Naval power and upgrade its old fleet of T-72's and T-80's with new FCS's engines and Relikt based armor kits to have a relevant ground force, because frankly that's the only course of action they can afford.

[Slant]

As you have the freedom to start such threads I have the freedom to question them, whether you like it or not.

You've done that. Good job. Now move on. Nobody's forcing you to click on the thread title.

[Elim Garak]

Bargaining was earlier in the year

You just don't know how bargaining works. It's not done after the first instance of it. Especially if you see that the seller is willing to lower the price, you push it to the limit.

All the stuff you are linking is normal process in any project development that involves two teams. If that meant "the end" - nothing would've been done jointly on this planet.

Also PAK FA >> F-35

[Deleted]

You've done that. Good job. Now move on. Nobody's forcing you to click on the thread title.

Do you boys want to be alone with your toys?

[Deleted]

dont think they need well put together cars, but we'll call you if they do.

America wouldn't have landed on the moon without german scientists.
That among many other things..