High elves on the alliance?

[Anjerith]

I am sorry but, if any portion of the data is true, it will be void elves for Horde and Nightborne for Alliance. The visual relation of a purple elf on Alliance and a white elf on Horde is simply too strong.

Again, sorry to derail with fact.

[Enkrypt]

I am sorry but, if any portion of the data is true, it will be void elves for Horde and Nightborne for Alliance. The visual relation of a purple elf on Alliance and a white elf on Horde is simply too strong.

Again, sorry to derail with fact.

That would be the most epic Alliance troll ever, and I wholeheartedly support it. Give them another dark-skinned elf race, they'll love it.

[Daevelian]

I am sorry but, if any portion of the data is true, it will be void elves for Horde and Nightborne for Alliance. The visual relation of a purple elf on Alliance and a white elf on Horde is simply too strong.

Again, sorry to derail with fact.

There's already subtle hints in the game with Nightborne showing interest in joining the horde. Sure, the visual relation COULD be something but as we have seen many, many times throughout the games history, things are subject to change at any time.

Countered your fact with some other facts, sorry.

[Immitis]

Did you? Because the very point of that story is what a unique special snowflakes both him and Alleria are. She's literally the only other person capable of doing it Locus Walker ever found, and he's been looking for forever. And he personally is so unique the Legion was willing to waste tons of demons to perma death just to capture him. And Shadow Priests are not comparable in the level of Void dabbling.

we are an entire planet of unique and special snowflakes dude

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Do you even read a persons entire post or are you really that dense? High elves may be "one of the most requested features of all time" but that's not the point of this thread, the OP was about VOID ELVES joining as a subrace, which won't happen because of how Void magic works.

This thread has devolved into an argument about high elves which may be a highly requested item by the players but that does not mean that they will happen any time soon because they would literally be a clone of blood elves but with blue eyes. So what if we've had a ton of new models/animations in the last few years that does not mean that we are going to get a subrace that's a literal clone of another race.

The community would backlash so hard over the fact that the subrace was just a lazy reskin of a different factions race. Because that's literally what high elves are in WoW, a cheap reskin of blood elves that for some reason look over the fact that they were betrayed by the alliance after all of their sacrifices. But again that's not the point of this thread, it's about the fact that the OP was claiming that Void Elves are a 100% thing that's going to happen.

so high elves are blood elves but this isnt a high elf



so i guess shadow priest blood elves are void blood elves and not blood elves

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even in her void form which she can switch in and out of at will she still is a high elf

[Zulkhan]

Like it or not, the most believable "leak" states we are getting void elves who are basically high elves.

The "most believable leak" is usually the very leak you have to ignore. An original, outlandish and somewhat unexpected leak has more chances to be real than "safe" leaks trying to look "believable". Surely you can't tell me MoP and WoD were expansions you would have found "believable" before announcement.

They join alliance with Alleria and the argument of not enough high elf is irrelevant as Alleria and her rangers had thousad years to create new generations.

No High Elf or Human seem to have followed Alleria and Turalyon in the Twisting Nether, nor they had any more children (which would have been Half-Elves anyway, not High Elves).

Zulkhan Friendlyimmolation and Mehrunes are known diehard Sylvanas fanboys. Like i said they project their hatred for Vareesa character on High Elves. Save yourself from wasting time.

Again, I'm no Sylvanas fanboy nor @Mehrunes holds any particular hard feeling on Veeresa like me and Friendly may do. How I know this? I actually read the threads rather than listening the voices in my head and project them here. It's a weird practice I know.

Not sure what are you even doing on forum if you're ignoring everyone who you disagree with.

The Iron Fist is the equivalent of an unfunny joke shaped and molded into a MMO-C poster. Fine if he wants the three of us into his (I assume hefty) ignore list but this guy is seriously going far to ignore everyone who even barely offends his feelings and narrative. He must have built one hell of an echo chamber at this point.

I addressed your post rather than his hoping that if I get quoted from you, there's still a chance he can read it (unless he didn't ignore you already for real, which would be fucking hilarious).

Sylvanas fanboy detected \o\

One who only deserves to fall into the hefty ignore pit of @The Iron Fist.

Well, I suppose Macemoon is right in your case at least, no? I mean, your sig exists for a reason. The truth about you is out there!

<---- Cruel and vindictive Troll IRL detected.

Considering how vehement the opposition to High Elves being playable is, how would their hypothetical inclusion as playable diminish the game for you (asking in general), specifically?

I personally believe High Elves represent little more than a wasted spot holding absolutely zero objective value. It's not that I want another playable race in particular, I don't want High Elves specifically and I think literally anything would be a more valuable option. They are the same shit as Blood Elves physically and have no unique characteristics that Blood Elves do not possess as well. Nothing new, nothing interesting about them. The most "interesting" thing about them is the chance of playing a blue-eyed Blood Elf in a faction that isn't the Horde.

The number of Alliance races I like is already little, adding High Elves would worsen the situation by a mile.

Sort of akin to the population of the Sen'jin Village when the orcs showed up on Kalimdor (their other settlements came later on, as far as I am aware, as they followed the orcs on spare space on their ships from the archipelage where they originally resided).

Wrong. Darkspear Trolls claimed the Echo Isles as their home in TFT already and so it was very little time before WoW started. Sen'jin Village was created with the main purpose to work on reclaiming the isles stolen by Zalazane. The rest of the tribe found its place in Orgrimmar, at least until the Echo Isles weren't reclaimed right before Cataclysm.

Also, may I ask, that the opinions of others not be called as idiotic?

Maybe you should read the opinion in question, since it was argued that me and some others don't like High Elves because we "project" our deep hatred for Vereesa on them. Considered the fact that, in reality, none of the arguments made against High Elves (gameplay or lorewise) had fucks to do with Vereesa whatsoever, the opinion in question is indeed idiotic and the deliberate projection of someone's bias.

[Dagoth Ur]

The Iron Fist is the equivalent of an unfunny joke shaped and molded into a MMO-C poster. Fine if he wants the three of us into his (I assume hefty) ignore list but this guy is seriously going far to ignore everyone who even barely offends his feelings and narrative. He must have built one hell of an echo chamber at this point.

I addressed your post rather than his hoping that if I get quoted from you, there's still a chance he can read it (unless he didn't ignore you already for real, which would be fucking hilarious).

Happy to help.

Sharing opposing opinions is literally the basis for discussion. Ignoring everyone you disagree with is toddler-like and straight up laughable.

[Tycondriel]

On a change of topic a bit...if the horde get Nightborne, does that mean we have a new druid class that isn't cow or troll???

[lightofdawn]

really hope not, we dont need more elven races.... or races at all.

okay with subraces tho

[Zulkhan]

On a change of topic a bit...if the horde get Nightborne, does that mean we have a new druid class that isn't cow or troll???

Doubtful. Nightborne are removed from nature even more than Blood Elves. Gardeners aren't excatly in touch with the wilds.

[Immitis]

On a change of topic a bit...if the horde get Nightborne, does that mean we have a new druid class that isn't cow or troll???

there are no nightbourne druids as far as i can tell aside from possibly the one raid boss in nighthold. all of their "nature magic" seems to just be them using arcane magic to subdue/mind control things

[Mehrunes]

Not cherrypicking.

The numbers aren't what I referred to as cherry-picking. It was your insistence on game portrayal only, as if the games existed in a void. They are merely a part of a larger whole and things like books, comics and Blizzard's official statements affect the picture as well. And while yes, that wasn't technically fully the case for the Worgen, like @Tauror said, there was still legitimate potential for them existing in Gilneas and with that being a very common theory.

On the other hand, the Cataclysm revamp took any potential hideouts for the High Elves and other than Northem and their ilk's claims of QUEEN CALIA hiding a bajillion High Elves in her royal ass, there aren't even any popular theories that could explain an influx of High Elves that Blizzard could use as an inspiration.

The number of orcs that made it out could not have been high, as they were specifically shown ingame to flee via just one port that had a handful of ships. For a significantly higher population, that would've had to make it from a few ships to many dozen, otherwise we are still talking a few hundred to low thousands tops (I sincerely doubt orcs that have just escaped from interment camps would willingly subject themselves to conditions akin to slave ships through overpopulation of vessels), and while the game(s) do scale the world in general down, in this case, in order for said docks to contain that many ships, it would have to be a place of massive strategic concentration for Lordaeron, something that was both NOT implied in the game and it would be nigh impossible to take by the orcish refugees.

Again, W3 is not an accurate portrayal of anything. Pretending that it is is no argument. Because if the amount of troops or ships was accurate in any way, then the Alliance Expedition consisted of a handful of people, for example. Only a bunch of them High Elves. Making your later point about Alleria's forces moot. Again, Blackmoore wanted to overthrow the entire Alliance with the Orcs from internment camps. An Alliance of multiple kingdoms. The only Orc clans that did not join the New Horde were those who were never put in the internment camps like the Dragonmaw or the Blackrock. And, also again, not all of those either, because Frostwolves and Warsong who were also not imprisoned, still joined the New Horde.

And since you insist on in-game stuff, if there was only 3 ships worth of Orcs in the Horde, then the alliance between the Horde and the Forsaken makes no sense as it was presented in the game. Forsaken consisted of half of Scourge forces of Lordaeron at the time Ner'zhul was hit by Illidan's spell from Dalaran. With the entirety of them consisting of almost entire population of Lordaeron, i.e. the largest nation on the planet, Quel'thalas, Dalaran with bits and pieces from other nearby kingdoms. And while Archimonde took some to Hyjal, it was still a massive amount of undead. And yet Forsaken, a half of that massive amount of undead, were presented as someone in need of the Orc support. In-game. How does that make any sense whatsoever if there were three ships worth of Orcs?

I am not arguing their number to be sky high. I am arguing that the number argument is inconsistent and thus shouldn't be used. The tauren were specifically stated to be nearly extinct, yet that didn't stop them from being a playable race.

Except it's not just a number, it's also official Blizzard statements about them no longer constituting a race. And again, the Tauren nearly extinct due to the Centaurs were just Cairne's. He talked about the plight of his people in regards to centaurs when he met with Thrall. At the time, that was Bloodhoof Tribe. The unification of Tauren tribes happened only after Orcs solved the Centaur problem with the Tauren and helped Cairne get into Mulgore.

I do not see how inclusion of High Elves anywhere would do anything to faction ballance (as it would obviously come with a race for the Horde too, likely one more prominent), or why it would make the inclusion of Blood Elves in the Horde moot, as their faction allegiance is not put into question and, if I remember correctly, they are bitterly at odds with the remaining High Elves. There would not be any political or population change to the Blood Elves.

Because all races are equally popular now? Blood Elves surpass even humans in popularity. A version of them on the Alliance is more likely to attract people than a subrace of a much less popular race of Night Elves. Especially if the "High" Elves end up being the Void Elves, which even share a similar skin tone to the Nightborne and are equally fresh. And I said nothing of faction allegiance changing. I talked about the point of it. That point was Blizzard's attempt at fixing the faction imbalance. I think they even officially admitted it at some point.

Sort of akin to the population of the Sen'jin Village when the orcs showed up on Kalimdor (their other settlements came later on, as far as I am aware, as they followed the orcs on spare space on their ships from the archipelage where they originally resided).

I'm confused. How is pointing out that the population of Outland High Elves is comparable to one village for trainees supposed to work in your favor? When you previously made the argument that it was supposedly big?

Also, may I ask, that the opinions of others not be called as idiotic? We are not asking that your Blood Elf be taken away, or anything being done to the Horde, and while I may disagree with you, I would preffer a discussion, not another example of invective use.

You may ask all you want, it's not my business what you ask or not. But I'm under no obligation to adhere to your asks, am I now? Because the arguments I called idiotic had nothing to do with "taking 'my' Blood Elves (I don't really play Blood Elves, but whatever) away". I mean, I laid out what that argument was in the very same sentence, so I'm not sure why there's any confusion here.

But if you need a clearer picture, here it is. Both Jorah and Magnagarde made claims that people making arguments against High Elves (though from the context it appears to be more of judgment-based arguments in terms of lore rather than on the issue of their playability) only do so because of them having issues with Vereesa. While there were some differences between their claims, that's the gist of it.

But hey, let's delve even further and examine the specifics. Magnagarde, in all their brilliance, claimed that the only arguments against High Elves in general that they see are those against Vereesa. Only two arguments against her in particular, too. Specifically, that she married a human "animal" (because the argument is totally that Rhonin is an animal and not that Vereesa is reduced to a trophy wife for Knaak to make his self-insert all the more amazing) and that she has half-human children.

Given the amount of discussions about High Elves and/or Vereesa they participated in, for that to be the only arguments they ever see on the topic they either have to have rocks for eyes, memory of a sponge or to be full of shit. And here's a hint: they are full of shit. Because even when it comes to Vereesa alone, there are arguments like, I dunno, her emotional instability or the teeny tiny blemish of her participating in fucking ethnic cleansing.

And that's just Vereesa. High Elves in general? When it comes to the race itself, most of the arguments against them focus on the High Elves that Lor'themar had to exile. And for the third (or maybe even fourth already) time in this thread, Vereesa was not one of those Elves. And here's the grand proof of why Magnagarde is full of shit. In this very thread they were engaged in a lenghty argument with @Combatbulter about High Elves, with Combat making arguments against them based on the exiles.

Time for the proof. That argument started before Magnagarde made the brilliant remark of how they only ever see arguments about Vereesa's children and husband. And Combat wasn't even the only person making those arguments (in this thread alone), just the person that argued with Magnagarde the most. When I confronted them with this fact, they made a post entirely about Vereesa as if that was supposed to prove the claim about High Elves somehow. I'm sorry, but that level of dishonesty created only to dismiss the other side's arguments is patently idiotic.

And then there's Jorah the genius. They on the other hand made the claim in regards to specific posters. I.e. @Friendlyimmolation, @Zulkhan and me. And how we project our hatred of Vereesa onto High Elves. Not only is that inaccurate to begin with, due to the arguments about Vereesa and High Elfs being different like I outlined above, but it also conflates the three of us in our degree of interest and dislike of Vereesa and High Elves.

More than that, they didn't even address that remark to us, but to other people, in order to besmirch us and paint us as "unworthy to be discussed". Which on a side note, ended in a hilarious moment of complete triggering devoid of any self awareness, spine, coherence or reason of Iron Fist (or as Zulkhan put it, of the unfunny joke shaped and molded into a MMO-C poster). Which enters libel territory. Again, sorry, but that's abject horseshit of an argument. If you think libel is an attempt at "a discussion, not another example of invective use.", be my guest, but I don't have to disagree with that in the slightest.

The cherry on top of Jorah's horseshit was presenting us as Sylvanas' fanboys as some kind of proof of us partaking in that projection. Which not only once again conflates the three of us (Zulkhan doesn't like Sylvanas all that much), but has fuck all to do with either Vereesa or High Elves. And when @Dagoth Ur tried to point out the logical bankruptcy of that, even though they tried to be impartial (they didn't even rule out the possibility of us indeed being Sylvanas' fanboys), instead of even a slightest moment of self-reflection on behalf of these shitposters, they got called out by Iron Fist for "stirring the pot" that should also be ignored.

A side note on the whole Sylvanas thing, us correcting abject fanfiction about her does not make us fanboys. And even though Zulkhan doesn't even like her (same goes to Combat and Tauror, who sometimes get lumped in in the fanboy crowd), he still gets branded as one because the headcasecanon peddlers like Jorah, Magnagarde or Iron First are unable to deal with any degree of criticism or being proven wrong with actual sources.

And as I said twice in the thread already, the very desire to create fanfiction about how Sylvanas is bad just to make an argument about her being bad is beyond ridiculous since there's plenty of actual canonical material out there that says the same goddamn thing. But these brilliant minds still feel the need to conjure crap like Sylvanas mind controlling the new Forsaken (which is outright arguing against the Word of God), the idea that rising new Forsaken dooms their souls to hell which is supported with nothing, or in Magnagarde's case, to make an argument how her destroying some trees makes her Hitler, because Universal Values™ (again, as if there was a lack of her bad deeds).

Back to the issue of "projecting hatred of Vereesa onto High Elves". That disingenuous, fallacious and intellectually dishonest nonsense, created only to dismiss opposite arguments (in case of the both of them) and to (in Jorah's case) outright besmirch other users to convince others to dismiss them, is an example of argumentative bankruptcy on their part. It's nothing more than a silencing behavior (that ironically proves they are the actual posters that discussion with whom is worthless). The very opposite of the discussion you crave.

And while calling their (disingenuous, fallacious and intellectually dishonest and bankrupt) argument "idiotic" may be presented as silencing mechanic as well, it's also merely calling spade a spade. Plus, they reap what they sow. I mean, I could sarcastically call it brilliant just to appease you, but I neither feel the need to, nor do I really see the point of it if the substance doesn't really change.

Speaking of Jorah the genius, oyyy @Jorah boi, still waiting on you to substantiate your horseshit with anything tangible. I know you can make it, you being the apotheosis of a worthy poster and all.

We really don't know yet how Void Elf would work, if it is indeed going to be a thing. We're missing all of the lore and story involved. We can't assume it'll be the same as Alleria, who underwent hundreds of years of training and absorbed a Void God. Clearly, something big and different is going to have to happen if the High Elves are going to be transformed into Void Elves.

Because the already established lore of how Void makes you insane, with an entire race worth of examples, where only a handful of unique people like Locus-Walker and Alleria are able to withstand it (in Alleria' case, even not fully) doesn't exist? And if they are below Alleria in Void-dabbling, what would make them not High Elves in Shadow Form?

As for High Elf numbers, I wouldn't worry so much about it. There's enough of them to be a faction with a standing army. We've seen them make military moves in Northrend, Dalaran, Zul'Aman, Suramar. If there's enough of you for an army, there's enough of you to be playable. Not like there's thousands of Demon Hunters and Death Knights. I've seen no one arguing about there only being two villages of Mag'har, when it comes to them being a viable sub-race.

All of which was just Silver Covenant, which always was in support role to a larger group, be it Kirin Tor, Blood Elves and the Darkspears, or the Night Elves. And comparison to Demon Hunters and Death Knights is comparing apples to oranges. One is basically a military order of some kind, the other is a race. Neither Death Knights not the Demon Hunters are even the entirety of their groups. Demon Hunters are the elite force of the Illidari, consisting of Blood Elves, Naga, Broken and Shivarra forces. Death Knights have supporting skeletons, abominations, banshees and the like. If you invert the Blizzard statement of how High Elves are not a race beyond the biological sense, you get unity and some sort of a societal structure for their definition of a race. Vereesa's militia doesn't really fit it.

As for people claiming there's no difference between Blood Elves and High elves genetically as an argument against them being a credible sub-race: the same goes for Brown Orcs. Green Orcs are just Orcs that were touched by Fel for a time. Doesn't mean they aren't considered their own thing.

For the most part that is the argument against them being a credible race though.

we are an entire planet of unique and special snowflakes dude

So every Orc peon is a unique special snowflake now? Because that's what a race of them would entail. Not just the singular players being them, every single individual. And not your average unique special snowflake even, but one surpassing even the big lore characters leading the charge. And that's not really the case even for players.

[Serenais]

The numbers aren't what I referred to as cherry-picking. It was your insistence on game portrayal only, as if the games existed in a void. They are merely a part of a larger whole and things like books, comics and Blizzard's official statements affect the picture as well. And while yes, that wasn't technically fully the case for the Worgen, like @Tauror said, there was still legitimate potential for them existing in Gilneas and with that being a very common theory.

I have been merely debating a previous post, in which the in-game presentation was used as an argument. Nothing more, nothing else. I do not insist on using in-game representation as the sole argument, I was only trying to debate what was stated.

On the other hand, the Cataclysm revamp took any potential hideouts for the High Elves and other than Northem and their ilk's claims of QUEEN CALIA hiding a bajillion High Elves in her royal ass, there aren't even any popular theories that could explain an influx of High Elves that Blizzard could use as an inspiration.

I have never argued for either.

Again, W3 is not an accurate portrayal of anything. Pretending that it is is no argument. Because if the amount of troops or ships was accurate in any way, then the Alliance Expedition consisted of a handful of people, for example. Only a bunch of them High Elves. Making your later point about Alleria's forces moot. Again, Blackmoore wanted to overthrow the entire Alliance with the Orcs from internment camps. An Alliance of multiple kingdoms. The only Orc clans that did not join the New Horde were those who were never put in the internment camps like the Dragonmaw or the Blackrock. And, also again, not all of those either, because Frostwolves and Warsong who were also not imprisoned, still joined the New Horde.

I did use Warcraft III only for things that would have to be lorewise massively different, in this instance, the Orcs using ships in only one port. There is nowhere any mention of any additional ports being assaulted by orcish refugees that I would remember, nor was it mentioned that there would be a meeting of additional ships afterwards. On top of that, there is no single mention of the port in question being guarded or strategicaly important. On top of that, the orcs taking a port is not mentioned anywhere ever again, be it Warcraft III, the books regarding estabilishment of Thrall's Horde or WoW itself afterwards, which suggests that either everyone forgot about the orcs suddenly running away with all of Lordaeron navy, or the port not being significant enough and thus not containing that many ships. Which in turn puts limits on how many orcs could've made it out of Lordaeron.

And since you insist on in-game stuff, if there was only 3 ships worth of Orcs in the Horde, then the alliance between the Horde and the Forsaken makes no sense as it was presented in the game. Forsaken consisted of half of Scourge forces of Lordaeron at the time Ner'zhul was hit by Illidan's spell from Dalaran. With the entirety of them consisting of almost entire population of Lordaeron, i.e. the largest nation on the planet, Quel'thalas, Dalaran with bits and pieces from other nearby kingdoms. And while Archimonde took some to Hyjal, it was still a massive amount of undead. And yet Forsaken, a half of that massive amount of undead, were presented as someone in need of the Orc support. In-game. How does that make any sense whatsoever if there were three ships worth of Orcs?

Please, see above.

Except it's not just a number, it's also official Blizzard statements about them no longer constituting a race. And again, the Tauren nearly extinct due to the Centaurs were just Cairne's. He talked about the plight of his people in regards to centaurs when he met with Thrall. At the time, that was Bloodhoof Tribe. The unification of Tauren tribes happened only after Orcs solved the Centaur problem with the Tauren and helped Cairne get into Mulgore.

Obviously, the argument about Tauren numbers does not include the Taunka, the Highmountain, Yaungol or any other Tauren population external to Kalimdor. While Cairne's tribe wasn't the only one, it was, per Warcraft III, the dominant tribe during the time. The game or any other lore source that I am aware of (or WoWpedia, for the matter) does not mention that the Tauren would be high enough in number, just with the Bloodhoof tribe being near extinction.
In fact, it would make Cairne's subsequent leadership and Bloodhoof dominance among the Tauren nearly impossible, if they were massively outnumbered by other present Tauren tribes - and they would have to be, considering that in Warcraft III, Cairne uses "village" and "tribe" interchangeably when meeting Thrall.

Because all races are equally popular now? Blood Elves surpass even humans in popularity. A version of them on the Alliance is more likely to attract people than a subrace of a much less popular race of Night Elves. Especially if the "High" Elves end up being the Void Elves, which even share a similar skin tone to the Nightborne and are equally fresh. And I said nothing of faction allegiance changing. I talked about the point of it. That point was Blizzard's attempt at fixing the faction imbalance. I think they even officially admitted it at some point.

If you believe the Horde playerbase to be as unstable that it would unravel by the hypothetical inclusion of High Elves as playable, then the Horde playerbase has a problem much larger than a potential of a popular Alliance race becoming playable; had that been the case, any succesful design on the Alliance side would cause a massive shift, not just the High Elves. Besides, the Alliance-Horde bases have remained largely in ballance since the numbers reached stable levels.
Or is there any example of a faction suddenly depopulating before, due to a new player race? There might be a temporary small-scale switch, to play a new thing, but I sincerely doubt there would be scores of guilds suddenly migrating to Alliance because High Elves became playable.

I'm confused. How is pointing out that the population of Outland High Elves is comparable to one village for trainees supposed to work in your favor? When you previously made the argument that it was supposedly big?

Again, I do not argue the numbers being sky high. I compared the number of high elves under Alleria's command in Outland to Sen'Jin village. We know of additional High Elves making it there after the second time the Dark Portal opened (very well, we know of ONE; considering she is one of six named High Elves present, that either means that there are nearly none there - in which case I don't see why Auric Sunchaser was important enough to be included on Sunwell Plateau when Quel'Delar is reforged - and she was the only new arrival, or that there might be an influx of High Elves of some level to a population we simply don't see, due to the game scaling everything down to minimalistic levels).

You may ask all you want, it's not my business what you ask or not. But I'm under no obligation to adhere to your asks, am I now? Because the arguments I called idiotic had nothing to do with "taking 'my' Blood Elves (I don't really play Blood Elves, but whatever) away". I mean, I laid out what that argument was in the very same sentence, so I'm not sure why there's any confusion here.

But if you need a clearer picture, here it is. Both Jorah and Magnagarde made claims that people making arguments against High Elves (though from the context it appears to be more of judgment-based arguments in terms of lore rather than on the issue of their playability) only do so because of them having issues with Vereesa. While there were some differences between their claims, that's the gist of it.

But hey, let's delve even further and examine the specifics. Magnagarde, in all their brilliance, claimed that the only arguments against High Elves in general that they see are those against Vereesa. Only two arguments against her in particular, too. Specifically, that she married a human "animal" (because the argument is totally that Rhonin is an animal and not that Vereesa is reduced to a trophy wife for Knaak to make his self-insert all the more amazing) and that she has half-human children.

Given the amount of discussions about High Elves and/or Vereesa they participated in, for that to be the only arguments they ever see on the topic they either have to have rocks for eyes, memory of a sponge or to be full of shit. And here's a hint: they are full of shit. Because even when it comes to Vereesa alone, there are arguments like, I dunno, her emotional instability or the teeny tiny blemish of her participating in fucking ethnic cleansing.

And that's just Vereesa. High Elves in general? When it comes to the race itself, most of the arguments against them focus on the High Elves that Lor'themar had to exile. And for the third (or maybe even fourth already) time in this thread, Vereesa was not one of those Elves. And here's the grand proof of why Magnagarde is full of shit. In this very thread they were engaged in a lenghty argument with @Combatbulter about High Elves, with Combat making arguments against them based on the exiles.

Time for the proof. That argument started before Magnagarde made the brilliant remark of how they only ever see arguments about Vereesa's children and husband. And Combat wasn't even the only person making those arguments (in this thread alone), just the person that argued with Magnagarde the most. When I confronted them with this fact, they made a post entirely about Vereesa as if that was supposed to prove the claim about High Elves somehow. I'm sorry, but that level of dishonesty created only to dismiss the other side's arguments is patently idiotic.

And then there's Jorah the genius. They on the other hand made the claim in regards to specific posters. I.e @Friendlyimmolation, @Zulkhan and me. And how we project our hatred of Vereesa onto High Elves. Not only is that inaccurate to begin with, due to the arguments about Vereesa and High Elfs being different like I outlined above, but it also conflates the three of us in our degree of interest and dislike of Vereesa and High Elves.

More than that, they didn't even address that remark to us, but to other people, in order to besmirch us and paint us as "unworthy to be discussed". Which on a side note, ended in a hilarious moment of complete triggering devoid of any self awareness, spine, coherence or reason of Iron Fist (or as Zulkhan put it, of the unfunny joke shaped and molded into a MMO-C poster). Which enters libel territory. Again, sorry, but that's abject horseshit of an argument. If you think libel is an attempt at "a discussion, not another example of invective use.", be my guest, but I don't have to disagree with that in the slightest.

The cherry on top of Jorah's horseshit was presenting us as Sylvanas' fanboys as some kind of proof of us partaking in that projection. Which not only once again conflates the three of us (Zulkhan doesn't like Sylvanas all that much), but has fuck all to do with either Vereesa or High Elves. And when @Dagoth Ur tried to point out the logical bankruptcy of that, even they tried to be impartial (they didn't even rule out the possibility of us indeed being Sylvanas' fanboys), instead of even a slightest moment of self-reflection on behalf of these shitposters, they got called out by Iron Fist for "stirring the pot" that should be ignored.

A side note on the whole Sylvanas thing, us correcting abject fanfiction about her does not make us fanboys. And even though Zulkhan doesn't even like her (same goes to Combat and Tauror, who sometimes get lumped in in the fanboy crowd), he still gets branded as one because the headcasecanon peddlers like Jorah, Magnagarde or Iron First are unable to deal with any degree of criticism or being proven wrong with actual sources.

And as I said twice in the thread already, the very desire to create fanfiction about how Sylvanas is bad just to make an argument about her being bad is beyond ridiculous since there's plenty of actual canonical material out there that says the same goddamn thing. But these brilliant minds still feel the need to conjure crap like Sylvanas mind controlling the new Forsaken (which is outright arguing against the Word of God), the idea that rising new Forsaken dooms their souls to hell which is supported with nothing, or in Magnagarde's case, to make an argument how her destroying some trees makes her Hitler, because Universal Values™ (again, as if there was a lack of her bad deeds).

Back to the issue of "projecting hatred of Vereesa onto High Elves". That disingenuous, fallacious and intellectually dishonest nonsense, created only to dismiss opposite arguments (in case of the both of them) and to (in Jorah's case) outright besmirch other users to convince others to dismiss them, is an example of argumentative bankruptcy on their part. It's nothing more than a silencing behavior. The very opposite of the discussion you crave.

And while calling their (disingenuous, fallacious and intellectually dishonest and bankrupt) argument "idiotic" may be presented as silencing mechanic as well, it's also merely calling spade a spade. Plus, they reap what they sow. I mean, I could sarcastically call it brilliant just to appease you, but I neither feel the need to, nor do I really see the point of it if the substance doesn't really change.

Speaking of Jorah the genius, oyyy @Jorah boi, still waiting on you to substantiate your horseshit with anything tangible. I know you can make it, you being the apotheosis of a worthy poster.

It appeared to me that you reffered to my arguments being idiotic as well, or, any statement that didn't outright disagree with High Elf playability for the matter. Apparently, I misunderstood what was being stated. You do imply a handful of people in general, and not having read their posts, I shall refrain from commenting either way.
It appears that you do take this matter very seriously, however (which is somewhat hypocritical of me, considering I didn't remove myself from this thread yet). I would like to inquire. Considering that I seem to disagree with you on apparently quite a few points, where would you categorise my input (or attempts at such)?

Before we move any further, I would like to point out that I never (in this thread, anyway) stated that High Elves should indeed be playable, I was just debating the points being used, and I do believe that they will never become so. My primary point of interest in this debate - and other similar ones - is that Blizzard has effectively ran out of existing races that could be potentially playable without a massive protest from the playerbase (or problems with their playability in general, before anyone comes up with the Naga or Ethereal). Thus, considering that timewise, we are due for a new race or more thereof, this is a topic that does not have a trivial solution.

[Jorah]

Battle of Wall Text. 2017

[Combatbutler]

If you believe the Horde playerbase to be as unstable that it would unravel by the hypothetical inclusion of High Elves as playable, then the Horde playerbase has a problem much larger than a potential of a popular Alliance race becoming playable; had that been the case, any succesful design on the Alliance side would cause a massive shift, not just the High Elves. Besides, the Alliance-Horde bases have remained largely in ballance since the numbers reached stable levels.
Or is there any example of a faction suddenly depopulating before, due to a new player race? There might be a temporary small-scale switch, to play a new thing, but I sincerely doubt there would be scores of guilds suddenly migrating to Alliance because High Elves became playable.

Nowadays factions mean pretty much nothing, most people aren't really attached to them, they just play what they want to play alongside their friends. But such an exodus did happen before, the moment the blood elves were introduced people left the Alliance for the Horde in droves. If it would happen today is not certain though, especially with so many toys that change ones appearance.

[Serenais]

Nowadays factions mean pretty much nothing, most people aren't really attached to them, they just play what they want to play alongside their friends. But such an exodus did happen before, the moment the blood elves were introduced people left the Alliance for the Horde in droves. If it would happen today is not certain though, especially with so many toys that change ones appearance.

I generally believe such a move wouldn't happen (or repeat), because the core of one's community in WoW nowadays is the guild (and not a speciffic faction, bar for some outright fanatics); considering that faction-changing an entire guild is quite a radical option, I do not see it as very likely among the general playerbase.
I do admit that you might have a point, however, "back then", before TBC the Horde didn't have the option of a "pretty race". That, I believe, was one of the reasons stated for the Blood Elves being introduced as a Horde race. The situation today is not akin to that, as both "pretty" and "rough" options are available for either faction. In fact, I believe that a shift specifically from Horde to High Elves would not happen (in numbers significant enough) simply because there already are Blood Elves.

[OverFanNisseFrasse]

*Deep inhale*
No more elves, PLEASE. Sorry, but not sorry. We got Night Elves and Blood Elves, we don't need more varity of elves. What we need is a deeper content of the elves we actully got. Add more or deeper lore to the Night Elves, such as the Sentinals, the Druids and the Wardens, likewise with the Blood elves, The Sunreavers, Reliquary and what not.

I don't really know, but I think Blizzard should focus on the elves they already got, rather then just throw in more ELVES.
... tired of elves everywhere.

[Combatbutler]

I generally believe such a move wouldn't happen (or repeat), because the core of one's community in WoW nowadays is the guild (and not a speciffic faction, bar for some outright fanatics); considering that faction-changing an entire guild is quite a radical option, I do not see it as very likely among the general playerbase.
I do admit that you might have a point, however, "back then", before TBC the Horde didn't have the option of a "pretty race". That, I believe, was one of the reasons stated for the Blood Elves being introduced as a Horde race. The situation today is not akin to that, as both "pretty" and "rough" options are available for either faction. In fact, I believe that a shift specifically from Horde to High Elves would not happen (in numbers significant enough) simply because there already are Blood Elves.

I wouldn't call faction hopping that radical, my guildies and I do it from time to time. Factions are more or less meaningless nowadays anyways, since most of the story is identical. I see high elves simply as a wasted spot, due to pretty much being identical to an already existing race, they don't even have a different skin color just eyes and even that is not set in stone, blood elves just had to be away for a few years from both Quel'thalas and Outland and they wouldn't have green eyes.

Blizz always could make the high elves look more sickly reflecting their choice, but still I'd say that is not quite enough

[Serenais]

I wouldn't call faction hopping that radical, my guildies and I do it from time to time. Factions are more or less meaningless nowadays anyways, since most of the story is identical. I see high elves simply as a wasted spot, due to pretty much being identical to an already existing race, they don't even have a different skin color just eyes and even that is not set in stone, blood elves just had to be away for a few years from both Quel'thalas and Outland and they wouldn't have green eyes.

Blizz always could make the high elves look more sickly reflecting their choice, but still I'd say that is not quite enough

My personal opinion is that the time for inclusion of High Elves has come and gone; the latest time was at the start of WoD (as a followup on the 5.2 questline), since then, there really isn't a possible opening or lore-related oportunity for them to appear. I can see some potential in their inclusion as a sub-race, but that also has its own pitfalls that would be difficult to address.

As by radical option, I didn't mean it in a negative way (and thus should've chosen a better word, my apologies); I simply meant that it would be done frequently, definitelly not for racial aesthetics.

As for looks, this is purely subjective on my part, I thought they could look less thin, while taller, than Blood Elves, considering that since they were cut off from the Sunwell, they were forced to find more physical ways of sustenance, which in most cases would simply have to be food. (obviously, that has massive problems as a hypothesis, therefore I have mentioned it only once - twice now).

[Caerule]

@Mehrunes and others.
I agree that indeed, there aren't enough High Elves to make them a viable stand-alone race. It is one of many reasons I have been against their inclusion in the past. However, I don't think sub-races require high numbers to be valid. I'm not going to complain if Blizzard decides to give us mag'har orcs or mecha-gnomes, even if lorewise their numbers are low. There only need to be enough presence of them to justify seeing them around in lore moments. And that is definitely the case for High Elves, of which we actually see quite a lot.

The main races represent the majority presence, and pillars of the Horde and Alliance. The pillars of strength that support it all. Introducing a sub-race percentage within that population isn't something that needs to meet the same standards.

@Mehrunes.
This is nitpicking, and I'm not looking to make it seem like in heavy disagreement on this or something. But using Void and Shadow doesn't actually make you insane. No more than any power, at least. It's why you see plenty of people and races use Shadow abilities on occasion without signs of madness. Anduin did. There's the shadow arrow hunters can do. A host of rogue abilities. And Discipline priests. The problem is that if you delve deep into the void, you encroach on the domain of the Void Lords and get exposed to their influence. That, is where things get very risky.

In many ways, void is like fel. Draw it in too much, and only the strongest, most trained and disciplined minds can resist its power, and avoid becoming twisted monstrosities. But there are a lot of lesser levels to it. A (hypothetical) void taint tearing through the High Elf race would certainly place them at risk. But how high that level of risk is, we can't yet be certain. What level of corruption will they be at, is unknown. It can be as "mild" as when the Blood Elf eyes turned green. As gripping as when the orcs drank demon blood and turned green, or as devastatingly hard to remain sane as it was for the Demon Hunters. The Void is a danger because of what lurks within. But the energies itself aren't more dangerous than dabbling in the Light.

[Immitis]

So every Orc peon is a unique special snowflake now? Because that's what a race of them would entail. Not just the singular players being them, every single individual. And not your average unique special snowflake even, but one surpassing even the big lore characters leading the charge. And that's not really the case even for players.

there is only a handful of pandaren that pledged themselves to both sides and theyre playable. and this thread isnt even about a playable race its a sub race.

we dont know how they'll implement subraces. maybe they'll be like hero classes where they start out as a somebody already. everything in this thread is speculation based off what is likely work in progress

if its void elves then we can likely assume they will be from allerias band of elven rangers.

theyve spent 10,000 years on multiple worlds and planets fighting the legion. maybe its not just alleria but high elves in general that like ethereal have an affinity towards the void. after all, high elves not only have the blood of a titan empowering them from when azeroths blood transformed their race from dark trolls to night elves but also might have been affected by the old god/twilights hammer/void influence from tirisfal glades where some of them went mad before moving to quel'thalas where AGAIN they spent thousands of years being bathed in titan blood magic albeit in the lesser form of the sunwell.

perhaps it is that magic they have been bathed in that allows them to resist the whispers in larger numbers.

we dont know how the void works. all we know is that it IS possible to use its powers and remain sane. player shadow priests do it, alleria does it, locus walker does it.

we dont know if the army of the light can wield it as alleria does. xera apparently locked alleria up just for attempting it with xera gone the xenophobic light corrupted army of the light cant stop alleria. and with them seeing alleria is sane, and illidan, and the more pragmatic the army is forced to become, fighting fire with fire as illidan did with the fel might seem like a better idea and we might see more of them reaching out to the voids powers.

they wouldnt introduce a character that is very clearly meant to show the void is not a one sided power whos trying to recruit followers and show the corruption of the light only to then not recruit anybody. its clearly foreshadowing, whether thats void elves, or a class, or even just a new plot hook clearly SOMETHING is going to involve locus walker and more void people