[Rant] ilvl issue and players skill

[david0925]

That's a good point and well worded. All 3 of my 110s are actually tanks so I am lucky in that I'm not forced to use a CoF, arcano, 2p+4pc etc. With that being said I think the general themes that have popped up in this thread of titanforging disincentivizing harder content, high IL gear being too easily obtainable, and it being harder (there have always been bad players with high IL but it's a lot more prevalent in Legion) to filter out bad players are accurate. What do you think?

I disagreed with because I never felt ilvl was a good metric ever since they introduced catch-up gear back in Sunwell in TBC. If you just farmed badges you can be using ilvl 141 items in most slots back then (when Sunwell dropped 154/156, forgot which). You always had to vet and it is always in your best interest in doing so.

Titanforge does inflate everyone's ilvl but I argue it does so universally and not really in favor of any particular demographic group. Only when you start considering quality over quantity, does the gap further close. And it is exactly because of such gap closer, and not really because of TF, that you really need to vet people. The stakes are also higher now with m+ since you can't change a group member during a run. So even if TF didnt' exist, the gap between "mediocre" and "cutting edge" people would still be closer than ever because of Legendaries and using items that are lower in ilvl but are stronger, such as CoF, Arcano, Whispers, etc.

[Deleted]

Yet you aren't actually an example of the problem, are you?

Because whilst one CHARACTER geared up outside that framework, you're an experienced raider, and presumably M+ PLAYER. Those are transferable skills. If you know how a boss or dungeon works, you know how it works. If you know how to tank, you know how to tank. Sure, an unfamiliar class may give you bad instincts, slow you down, or the like, but it won't make you incompetent.

And people are reporting actual incompetence. Like, drop me on a Pally tank right now, and I wouldn't have any M+ experience with a Paladin, but I would with DK and DH, and looooong experience in non-M+ tanking with Druid and Prot Warrior, and altogether, I'd be okay, I'd suggest. Not amazing, but if I was geared appropriately, no-one would be booing.

I'm sure it's similar for you.

DPS characters are bit more complicated of an issue, as the transferable skills are arguably smaller but...

The problem is that there are several points being discussed in parallel in this thread. I don't disagree with a single thing you said, but the discussion I was pitching into was the one with the following simple premise that I quoted:

See? The second part is in your head. You think you can titanforge your gear to level of Mythic Raider? Kk bro, feel free to try.

They were not discussing any fine details about transferable skills or optimization beyond ilvl. Someone made a blanket statement that someone who does no Mythic can't titanforge his way to the ilvl of someone who does. That, in and by itself, is simply false.

[david0925]

The problem is that there are several points being discussed in parallel in this thread. I don't disagree with a single thing you said, but the discussion I was pitching into was the one with the following simple premise that I quoted:

See? The second part is in your head. You think you can titanforge your gear to level of Mythic Raider? Kk bro, feel free to try.

They were not discussing any fine details about transferable skills or optimization beyond ilvl. Someone made a blanket statement that someone who does no Mythic can't titanforge his way to the ilvl of someone who does. That, in and by itself, is simply false.

agreed. These kind of threads usually diverge in discussion especially when the opening post is made intentionally vague.

[FrostyK]

agreed. These kind of threads usually diverge in discussion especially when the opening post is made intentionally vague.

Why are you still at it? It was made intentionally vague to encourage discussion from all angle.
Or should I just title it as "titanforges are bad, discuss"
If you think original post being made intentionally vague is a bad idea, then why the fuck are you posting here? You posted the most replies here, considering how you think the original post was bad. If you wish to discuss the ideas but you think this thread is bad, go make your own fucking post with your "coherent" argument. retard

Just get out from here. After your 2nd post, you're not saying anything relevant nor helpful. Go troll/hijack other threads instead.

[Danvash]

Having good gear has never made anyone a good player. Only experience makes someone better, and I'm not talking about just having an achievement either.

If you really want to pug your keys, require voice and look to see if they've completed similar keys on time.
I don't care about item level any more unless the applicant is super under geared for the content. Simply taking the highest ilvls available is a recipe for failure.

[Heladys]

With ilvl 935 gears given out weekly

Lol no.

I've hit every Greater Invasion and coined it and still not one piece of loot on my main (titanforged or otherwise), nor any good titanforges of the 910 tokens. Nothing but AP tokens and crap.

My alts have been luckier, granted, but not dramatically so.

[FrostyK]

Lol no.

I've hit every Greater Invasion and coined it and still not one piece of loot on my main (titanforged or otherwise), nor any good titanforges of the 910 tokens. Nothing but AP tokens and crap.

My alts have been luckier, granted, but not dramatically so.

Weekly order hall cache =.=

[david0925]

Why are you still at it? It was made intentionally vague to encourage discussion from all angle.
Or should I just title it as "titanforges are bad, discuss"
If you think original post being made intentionally vague is a bad idea, then why the fuck are you posting here? You posted the most replies here, considering how you think the original post was bad. If you wish to discuss the ideas but you think this thread is bad, go make your own fucking post with your "coherent" argument. retard

Just get out from here. After your 2nd post, you're not saying anything relevant nor helpful. Go troll/hijack other threads instead.

I'm having a great discussion with 3-5 other people in this thread who are able to articulate their idea and acknowledge difference in philosophy. If you can't handle that perhaps don't start threads.

You can keep getting mad at me though, it makes the thread more amusing.

[FrostyK]

I'm having a great discussion with 3-5 other people in this thread who are able to articulate their idea and acknowledge difference in philosophy. If you can't handle that perhaps don't start threads.

You can keep getting mad at me though, it makes the thread more amusing.

Good for you my man, good for you. Keep up the good work my boy. The easiest way to spot someone with bad argument and lack of understanding is

1) Attacking the person rather than the topic
2) Attacking the language

You seems to be doing both. So yah. Feel free to articulate more here. Unlike you, I don't flame people base on their language. As long as I get their point, I dont be a dick about it. Enjoy your stay. You seems like that little kid who afraid to start his own thread, the moment someone does, you jump in and hijack the entire thing. And you also fail to notice the [Rant]. Its a fucking rant. Its not a thesis. So much for your articulation.

[Deleted]

Quit.

You are obviously too good for the game. I can tell because after seeing these people make these mistakes you took no action to remedy it. Why the fuck should you, a top tier player, help others to correct their mistakes? I mean, how dare they not know what to do.

Everything that has happened is your fault. You're too stupid to communicate. You deserve to be in wipe-fests.

This is a well written Post. Maybe you should try and understand it just a little bit before giving such a useless Answer

[Achilles55]

Good for you my man, good for you. Keep up the good work my boy. The easiest way to spot someone with bad argument and lack of understanding is

1) Attacking the person rather than the topic
2) Attacking the language

You seems to be doing both. So yah. Feel free to articulate more here. Unlike you, I don't flame people base on their language. As long as I get their point, I dont be a dick about it. Enjoy your stay. You seems like that little kid who afraid to start his own thread, the moment someone does, you jump in and hijack the entire thing. And you also fail to notice the [Rant]. Its a fucking rant. Its not a thesis. So much for your articulation.

I think there's just a general misunderstanding here. I think the thread is very well written and actually not overly vague. That being said I don't think david has done anything wrong or even close to what you've suggested here. His responses to me and others from what I've seen have been civil and articulated. There have been some shitty brainded comments on this thread but I don't think they've been from him.

[Eurhetemec]

Weekly order hall cache =.=

You have to be doing M10+ reliably to get that "weekly".

If you are doing M10+ reliably, you are probably NOT one of the people you mentioned in the OP.

[FrostyK]

I think there's just a general misunderstanding here. I think the thread is very well written and actually not overly vague. That being said I don't think david has done anything wrong or even close to what you've suggested here. His responses to me and others from what I've seen have been civil and articulated. There have been some shitty brainded comments on this thread but I don't think they've been from him.

I had no issue with him nor have I provoked him until he posted this,

"I actually don't even know what side he wants to take and it seems looks like a mixed bag of random flaming, humble bragging, and constant side flipping.

Maybe Trump does play this game."

and


"agreed. These kind of threads usually diverge in discussion especially when the opening post is made intentionally vague."


And he mentioned that I am flaming people, when he drew the first flame on me personally. Before this, I have no issue at all. I don't even know why he was provoked and posted that trump shit. I wasn't even replying to his posts because I thought it was well written.

[FrostyK]

Not true. It's quite easy to sneak into a +10 once a week or have people carry you.

This. It's easy if you have 2 or 3 other who can carry you. I usually M+ with a guildie tank and a healer. For a +10 key, we don't really care what the other 2 people are as long as they contribute some form of trash damage to quicken things up. I usually have dps dying on most boss fight but we can still get our key done in time. And we don't mind carrying people as long as they do something. Or sometime we boost 2 of our guildie's alt.

But for +15 and beyond though, its when shit you don't even notice before starts one shotting you.

[Eurhetemec]

Not true. It's quite easy to sneak into a +10 once a week or have people carry you.

Every week, week after week? And not know basic stuff about your character? Fucking colour me SUPER SKEPTICAL. I can buy you getting away with that a few times, or being kinda bad and dragged through it by good players, but every week, week after week like you'd need to, to more or less fully gear that way? Pffffft.

[david0925]

I had no issue with him nor have I provoked him until he posted this,

"I actually don't even know what side he wants to take and it seems looks like a mixed bag of random flaming, humble bragging, and constant side flipping.

Maybe Trump does play this game."

and


"agreed. These kind of threads usually diverge in discussion especially when the opening post is made intentionally vague."


And he mentioned that I am flaming people, when he drew the first flame on me personally. Before this, I have no issue at all. I don't even know why he was provoked and posted that trump shit. I wasn't even replying to his posts because I thought it was well written.

The Trump thing was more of a joke at my thought about your random rambling (which you even admitted to in one of your retaliating posts as "this is a rant can't you read?". I don't really think it's appropriate looking back and I don't think there's anything there to justify that comment. That was my fault for sure, although the comment was made because I think your initial post and follow-up response have inconsistencies about your thought and contains humble bragging about progression (this may have translated from your artificial difficulty thread) and being vague about points does not actually make the discussion more open-ended, as there is a distinct difference between vague and impartial.

The second quote wasn't even a derogatory remark. You chose to interpret it as much because "shots have been fired", as with all of your retaliatory follow-up response afterwards even when I didn't "double down" on that remark (because it was a half-serious comment that did more damage than I anticipated)

[Deleted]

Every week, week after week? And not know basic stuff about your character? Fucking colour me SUPER SKEPTICAL. I can buy you getting away with that a few times, or being kinda bad and dragged through it by good players, but every week, week after week like you'd need to, to more or less fully gear that way? Pffffft.

As a decent player doing +10 on 5 chars every week since 3-4 weeks, it's very easy to get into +10 groups nowadays with the ilvl inflation. With decent players (+10 are easy nowadays), it takes me less than 2 hours a week.

[david0925]

As a decent player doing +10 on 5 chars every week since 3-4 weeks, it's very easy to get into +10 groups nowadays with the ilvl inflation. With decent players (+10 are easy nowadays), it takes me less than 2 hours a week.

doing 10s are very easy. It's getting into them as DPS without a high ilvl that is hard, since even most Mythic raiders are content doing a 10-12 for their weekly chest, so that bracket is filled with high ilvl people.

Of course, if you have guildies or friends that are tank/healer to get you into a group, you can easily pull your weight even at a drastically lower ilvl.

[Eurhetemec]

As a decent player doing +10 on 5 chars every week since 3-4 weeks, it's very easy to get into +10 groups nowadays with the ilvl inflation. With decent players (+10 are easy nowadays), it takes me less than 2 hours a week.

Sure, but you're a decent player.

Oh well I dunno, it isn't hard to get in to one, I agree, I just feel like a player as utterly awful as the ones the OP and Taeldorian mentioned would have difficulty. Maybe not though?

[Deleted]

Just throwing this out here. I completely agree with your point.

One thing though... I'm a heroic raider and we do a bit of mythic (Are on 3 bosses killed now with Sisters at ~20% HP best attempt). I personally don't really care about M+. I mainly run it for the weekly cache. I go with my guild on ~13 keys although the guys that really do like M+ run M15 and keys like that, I believe some have cleared a +16 or even attempted a +17. I don't know these tactics very well even though I'm one of the main tanks in our guild.

Just a different perspective, I've been playing my Prot Warrior since classic and I am not a bad tank by a longshot. Just inexperienced at M+. Perhaps some of the people you ran M+ with are like me. Obviously baddies remain baddies and you can't cure stupid.