If they keep titanforging... then add back valor item upgrade

[Athorha]

Say next expac theres a tforge cap of 1200.
Heroic raider get 1170
Mythic gets 1185 as a base.

Heroic raider is lucky and tforges bis trinket up to 1190, Mythic raider never even sees a warforge. End the patch has the heroic player ahead in terms of that slot,, solely because of luck.
By reimplementing the system that was in place in MoP (maybe even in WoD idk, didn't play they) allow for 2 +5ilvl upgrades per week.

1185 to 1200 is 15, so 1.5 weeks per item. If you assume around 154 days between content patches, that's 22 weeks, enough for 14 fully upgraded items. Factor in something is going to warforge / tforge and you should be at full 1200 by end of content patch if you consistently raid mythic. Then when the next content patch hits, old items are locked to their previous cap (ie you can't upgrade a convergence of fates to a TOS or even Argus ilvl)

[SFBayGamer]

Not really necessary. There is a false narrative that LFR heroes somehow due to TFing have overall better gear than Mythic raiders
which isn’t the case. If you look at wowprog and eliminate the high ilvl guys who are solely pvp/m+ literally all the top geared guys have at least some Mythic progression. Mythic clearing guys > everyone in terms of gear level aside from pvp/Team m+ hardcores. Until someone presents data (which they can’t which is why you never see it posted) that doing heroic/normal spam gears you better as a general rule than Mythic content, the system is working as intended. I don’t care about one slot on one random noob being better and neither should anyone else.

The problem is likely stemming from “Mythic” guilds wiping for a solid months at boss checkpoints instead of taking a breather and maybe coming back better geared through heroic and m+.

This is all moot though if consider how the M+ system works. The weekly chest has a huge increased chance of TFing and that combined with the chest gear and inherent ability to spam this makes this mode by far the most productive in terms of loot. Literally all my gear at max 955 ilvl come solely from that. 930 loots from current ToS Mythic is not motivating at all so if you are still progressing it’s because you want the achievements anyway, loot is secondary.

[Athorha]

Not really necessary. There is a false narrative that LFR heroes somehow due to TFing have overall better gear than Mythic raiders
which isn’t the case. If you look at wowprog and eliminate the high ilvl guys who are solely pvp/m+ literally all the top geared guys have at least some Mythic progression. Mythic clearing guys > everyone in terms of gear level aside from pvp/Team m+ hardcores. Until someone presents data (which they can’t which is why you never see it posted) that doing heroic/normal spam gears you better as a general rule than Mythic content, the system is working as intended. I don’t care about one slot on one random noob being better and neither should anyone else.

The problem is likely stemming from “Mythic” guilds wiping for a solid months at boss checkpoints instead of taking a breather and maybe coming back better geared through heroic and m+.

This is all moot though if consider how the M+ system works. The weekly chest has a huge increased chance of TFing and that combined with the chest gear and inherent ability to spam this makes this mode by far the most productive in terms of loot. Literally all my gear at max 955 ilvl come solely from that. 930 loots from current ToS Mythic is not motivating at all so if you are still progressing it’s because you want the achievements anyway, loot is secondary.

Well my basis for adding back upgrades would be to make it so you aren't constantly fishing for an upgrade from lesser levels. Yeah the option would still be there if you really want to / have the time, but atleast now you'd know if you're raiding mythic you WILL get a full set of max ilvl before the next patch, regardless of RNG. Making it so going into a new patch guilds from #1 in the world to #100 pretty much have the same average ilvl, so blizz can tune fights properly and not have the shit show where they either balance fights to be undertuned for the top 20, or on par with everyone in the top 100~.

[Gohzerlock]

But they love titanforge / warforge , it's the string that dangles the carrot in front of the donkey.

[Athorha]

But they love titanforge / warforge , it's the string that dangles the carrot in front of the donkey.

It's awesome for casuals. On my fresh rogue I got a 950 relic first week I was 110. But I can definitely see it being an annoyance for higher tier raiders. Part of the reason I enjoyed raiding back when I did seriously was knowing there was an end goal / BIS. Now it's not there / it's gated behind so much RNG. Why not have a system that gives casuals a way to gear up / play the lottery, but at the same time atleast make it so top tier raiders aren't relying on that lottery (albeit with better odds) to get their BIS.

[MisterBigglez]

The system itself favours alts and casuals but not so much semi hard and above due to the standard ilvl of gear being high. My main is currently 940 and I started playing my paladin recently and in a week I got to 936 ilvl because of titanforging :P

Also fuck Valor points

[Gaidax]

Well my basis for adding back upgrades would be to make it so you aren't constantly fishing for an upgrade from lesser levels.

Do you really have to do it?

Because you don't.

[Video Games]

Titanforging doesn't make sense in legion since they made it so a lower ilvl piece is usually better. I haven't gotten a single upgrade from my weekly chest because of this even though i keep getting 945 trinkets and I'm still using a 895 sob.

[D3athsting]

so if you are still progressing it’s because you want the achievements anyway, loot is secondary.

Too bad you need m for tier pieces that are vital to some classes/specs

[ruuBEN]

this may sound stupid, but reading this kinda gave me an idea.

what do people think of adding an 'obliterate' for raiding epics next expac? for example, instead of just DEing the useless epics you get from running older content, or DEing the mythic loot off of the first half bosses people don't want to keep running, why not award those to people who can obliterate said items to potentially add one/two upgrades like the valor item upgrades were?

this would increase the value of enchanting items (because crafting/dungeons/potential WQ's would be the source for crystals)
this would also give an even bigger incentive to run old raids to help with LFR/general pugs
this would, however, be toxic in the sense of people not wanting to donate their gear they obtain in older raids to someone in need.

i dunno. i feel like having this mechanic in place would make some of the mandatory item farms (warriors and CoF during NH) a little less mind-numbing, and feel even a little bit more rewarding on the chance you don't get the *one* item you're after.

[Rioo]

Valor upgrades has always sucked. Just a system for keeping people doing boring stuff outside of raids. It would also go against their new philosophy of being able to equip almost all items as soon as you get them. Then again they did implement the artifact forge so they might ignore their own design principles again.

[Nize]

Not RNG enough by Blizzard standards.

[Noah37]

I had been trying to push re-introducing item upgrading for a while. To me it just sucks to have to wait on RNG to give you the titanforged version of whatever item you want. So I like being able to either get lucky with a drop, or be able to spend a few weeks and upgraded a base line item to the titanforged version without RNG.

[Socialhealer]

Not RNG enough by Blizzard standards.

simple each week you start with a random valor cap 0-5000.

and everything you do gives a random amount of valor.

unlucky those weeks your valor cap is 32 while LFR hero gets 4986 valor cap and his first WQ awards 4500 valor.

[dakalro]

Titanforging doesn't make sense in legion since they made it so a lower ilvl piece is usually better. I haven't gotten a single upgrade from my weekly chest because of this even though i keep getting 945 trinkets and I'm still using a 895 sob.

Except in very few cases for affli/destro warlocks that's not true. You have Arcano and until patch Whispers that are much better than higher ilvl trinkets. Then you have some trinkets that will be 10-20 ilvls better than others. But for the rest of the items ilvl simply wins when talking about 10ilvls or more.

That's not true for all classes but it's certainly not a rule intended by Blizz. They even made some tuning changes so that ilvl matters more.

[Deleted]

Not really necessary. There is a false narrative that LFR heroes somehow due to TFing have overall better gear than Mythic raiders
which isn’t the case. If you look at wowprog and eliminate the high ilvl guys who are solely pvp/m+ literally all the top geared guys have at least some Mythic progression. Mythic clearing guys > everyone in terms of gear level aside from pvp/Team m+ hardcores. Until someone presents data (which they can’t which is why you never see it posted) that doing heroic/normal spam gears you better as a general rule than Mythic content, the system is working as intended. I don’t care about one slot on one random noob being better and neither should anyone else.

The problem is likely stemming from “Mythic” guilds wiping for a solid months at boss checkpoints instead of taking a breather and maybe coming back better geared through heroic and m+.

This is all moot though if consider how the M+ system works. The weekly chest has a huge increased chance of TFing and that combined with the chest gear and inherent ability to spam this makes this mode by far the most productive in terms of loot. Literally all my gear at max 955 ilvl come solely from that. 930 loots from current ToS Mythic is not motivating at all so if you are still progressing it’s because you want the achievements anyway, loot is secondary.

A principle can sometimes make the game less enjoyable than the actual effect. Especially for an RPG the current system is outright sordid. Though effective in terms of money-grabbing, sure.

Still, the gap between casuals and mythic raiders has never been lower than it is. It has never been easier to be in high item level gear as a casual. Heck, I myself have 7 955 items, two of which procced from level 8 weekly chests...

Leftist ideology does not belong to an RPG.

[kamuimac]

Say next expac theres a tforge cap of 1200.
Heroic raider get 1170
Mythic gets 1185 as a base.

Heroic raider is lucky and tforges bis trinket up to 1190, Mythic raider never even sees a warforge. End the patch has the heroic player ahead in terms of that slot,, solely because of luck.
By reimplementing the system that was in place in MoP (maybe even in WoD idk, didn't play they) allow for 2 +5ilvl upgrades per week.

1185 to 1200 is 15, so 1.5 weeks per item. If you assume around 154 days between content patches, that's 22 weeks, enough for 14 fully upgraded items. Factor in something is going to warforge / tforge and you should be at full 1200 by end of content patch if you consistently raid mythic. Then when the next content patch hits, old items are locked to their previous cap (ie you can't upgrade a convergence of fates to a TOS or even Argus ilvl)

there is fairly big chance that blizzard will do itlv reduction with legendaries hitting 1000 already in legion - because the numbers on gear are getting to quite high numbers.

and its psychologicaly less incentivizing to get 5 itlv upgrade to gear that has 100 or 200 itlvels then add +5 itlv to level 1000.

just compare

"hm do i farm this dungeon for +5 itlv to get chest level 105 " compared to " hm do i farm this dungeon for +5 itlv to get chest level 1005" - and answear is simple in second case " f... it its not worth only 5 itemlevels"

- - - Updated - - -

A principle can sometimes make the game less enjoyable than the actual effect. Especially for an RPG the current system is outright sordid. Though effective in terms of money-grabbing, sure.

Still, the gap between casuals and mythic raiders has never been lower than it is. It has never been easier to be in high item level gear as a casual. Heck, I myself have 7 955 items, two of which procced from level 8 weekly chests...

Leftist ideology does not belong to an RPG.

congrats - you were super lucky - i have 12 toons on level 110 and highest titanforged i've seen so far was 945 from world bosses 930 loot .

not eveyrone is as lucky as you .

[Deleted]

Not really necessary. There is a false narrative that LFR heroes somehow due to TFing have overall better gear than Mythic raiders
which isn’t the case. If you look at wowprog and eliminate the high ilvl guys who are solely pvp/m+ literally all the top geared guys have at least some Mythic progression. Mythic clearing guys > everyone in terms of gear level aside from pvp/Team m+ hardcores. Until someone presents data (which they can’t which is why you never see it posted) that doing heroic/normal spam gears you better as a general rule than Mythic content, the system is working as intended. I don’t care about one slot on one random noob being better and neither should anyone else.

The problem is likely stemming from “Mythic” guilds wiping for a solid months at boss checkpoints instead of taking a breather and maybe coming back better geared through heroic and m+.

This is all moot though if consider how the M+ system works. The weekly chest has a huge increased chance of TFing and that combined with the chest gear and inherent ability to spam this makes this mode by far the most productive in terms of loot. Literally all my gear at max 955 ilvl come solely from that. 930 loots from current ToS Mythic is not motivating at all so if you are still progressing it’s because you want the achievements anyway, loot is secondary.

Second this.

If players consume most of (70%) of all the content they can do in a reset, a mythic player will always come out on top with gear.

The only occassion this may not be the same is if you look at players who are stuck at 3/9M and dont go into heroic, or many M+.

Ive seen the odd player that has been very lucky with TF, having mythic 8-9 gear and some crazy TF LFR / Normal pieces but those players are extremely rare and not worth working about. just be like, wtf is this guys luck and move on. He wont get that sort of luck in another tier so he will eventually fall be behind the gear curve and be placed with gear appropriate for level of content he is consuming.

I experienced some of this luck on my third tank, my bear (My alt) which i cleared NM NH and a little bit of HC on caught up to my monk (my main) that did NH mythic with 7 farm bosses at the time. It he eventually got ahead again just due to the TF/WF chances my monk got.

[XDurionX]

Not really necessary. There is a false narrative that LFR heroes somehow due to TFing have overall better gear than Mythic raiders
which isn’t the case. If you look at wowprog and eliminate the high ilvl guys who are solely pvp/m+ literally all the top geared guys have at least some Mythic progression. Mythic clearing guys > everyone in terms of gear level aside from pvp/Team m+ hardcores. Until someone presents data (which they can’t which is why you never see it posted) that doing heroic/normal spam gears you better as a general rule than Mythic content, the system is working as intended. I don’t care about one slot on one random noob being better and neither should anyone else.

The problem is likely stemming from “Mythic” guilds wiping for a solid months at boss checkpoints instead of taking a breather and maybe coming back better geared through heroic and m+.

This is all moot though if consider how the M+ system works. The weekly chest has a huge increased chance of TFing and that combined with the chest gear and inherent ability to spam this makes this mode by far the most productive in terms of loot. Literally all my gear at max 955 ilvl come solely from that. 930 loots from current ToS Mythic is not motivating at all so if you are still progressing it’s because you want the achievements anyway, loot is secondary.

True. People tend to get irrational and hysterical when it comes to titanforging. Sure, an lfr hero can get an ilvl 955 item and a mythic raider can get "just" a 930 one. But this is so damn rare and has no impact on the bigger picture whatsoever. People don't understand statistics and how miniscule the impact really is. Someone who raids mythic for 8 weeks will ALWAYS be on top of someone who "raids" lfr for 8 weeks.

[Deleted]

I want to get rid of extreme TF because it usually hits the wrong items. Too many bad items get TF and good loot does not.