Difficulty/Complexity

[Keashaa]

Remove the ability of DBM, Raid Tools, WA, etc to track things so well. /thread

I do not understand the hate for DBM / BW. Using tool to make things easier / accessible? Fuck, I hope you never used a calculator to get the integral and differential of a given formula. I hope you never used a hammer (because, come on, your mighty hand is enough for that task!). Or for god's sake a car.

[krl]

Banning Bossmods would have major consequences but not for mythic raiding guilds. We would develop our own external timers, some of them would get banned, some not.

However, normal/heroic pugging would become impossible. Let's face it, heroic pugs don't really progress because they explode after 1 or 2 fails and most puggers learn the fights through bossmods alerts.
And most people who use weakauras don't go further than rotation helper.

Banning those things would hurt the semi-casual crowd the most.

[Ahovv]

You think you want this, but you don't. Also your reasoning is flawed. The devs develop with DBM etc. in mind these days. breaking these addons would mean they wouldn't design raids as they do now. What it would mean is a return to Molten Core/BWL levels of "complexity"; it would remove complexity, not bring it back.

The funny thing is, other games have created raid encounters more difficult and complex than anything in WoW without any DBM-style addons available.

So sure, maybe they would make that design decision. But it's not necessary.

[Alvito]

Forcing me to squint to at the top right hand corner of my 27 inch monitor to look at rapidly changing icons is not real difficulty.

I can say watching buffs on myself or my target in other games without add on support made me very thankful we can customize things in WoW. Even more so for the specs that you want to keep buffs/dots up 100% of the time or as close as possible or only want to use certain abilities combo'd with other buffs or target debuffs.

[kamuimac]

I do not understand the hate for DBM / BW. Using tool to make things easier / accessible? Fuck, I hope you never used a calculator to get the integral and differential of a given formula. I hope you never used a hammer (because, come on, your mighty hand is enough for that task!). Or for god's sake a car.

the use of it is more then ok

designing fights with them in mind is not ok

thats what people mean

if players want to make their game artificially easier ? its ok - but designing game as harder because those things exist is fucking up huge part of community that doesnt use them

if they like it so much they should have put its functionaly into game to have everybody on equal footing.

[omeomorfismo]

and ? if people want to cheat the diffuculty by using addons its their choice - they hsouldnt complain then the game is too easy though and demand for it to be made harder just for them.

most of people do not use addons - and game should never be designed around them - its the crucial design flaw showing incompetence of people in charge of game.

blizard should have banned dbm and weakauras years ago instead making fight harder and harder to the point where in legion even world best guilds complain about game being to hard and not worth puting time into it.

who in mythic dont use DBM? or even heroic in progression? ok being hyperbolic, but liar to this point....

[Sencha]

Harder class mechanics (most specs have been dumbed down too much). Keep the current difficulty of raid mechanics.

[Keashaa]

the use of it is more then ok

designing fights with them in mind is not ok

Sorry but normal mode raiding is far away from being designed with addons in mind. The game itself shows all information needed and there's nearly no need for communication (like Mistress has only one shot). When it comes to harder content I'm totally fine with fights being designed with addons in mind. It's like choosing a course for a cross-country race. For the majority you choose an easy course but for the advanced and professional runners you choose a harder course because you know they have tools like special footwear or gps gear and so on.

[Spaze]

I feel harder class mechanics. Back when they removed snapshotting of DoTs they really pushed dpsing towards a easier style. WoD and their removal of spells also helped with this.

Ah snapshotting was fun! Sad that they removed it was a good feeling to hit that timings right

[VyersReaver]

ITT: people clamoring for raid addons removal that will QQ after they are actually removed.

Hypocrites are the easiest kind.

[Gaidax]

11 of 10 MMO-C users have played since vanilla in server first guilds.

Anything else I should provide? My blood type maybe?

I was in Twentyfourseven on Dunemaul.

BTW - Huhuran kill vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWaZyJFLNJQ
As you can see mods are there, also notice the very complex gameplay during raid encounter.


Look who's here standing there spamming Flash of Light for whole damn encounter, because that was all that really needed to be done. I was a healer back then - spamming smartheal FoL macro 90% of the time which automatically picked up lowest HP guy and tossed FoL on him - insanely difficult and yes macros were doing these things back then.

If I wanted to be sassy I'd pop Divine Favor and land uber Holy Light on whatever I wanted, usually tank. Then basically back to spamming FoL because it was mana efficient.


Ze hard encounter, everyone sitting with hands in their asses half the time waiting out 5 seconds casting rule. Heck I'm glad I was a pally, I could actually spamheal with FoL all encounter - super engaging compared to mages and such who were basically afking half the encounter panting for mana.

[Laqweeta]

WoW's raids and dungeons are doable by everyone, it's just most of the population is absolutely stupid they don't know what to do. This is 2017 WoW, so.

[Gaidax]

Banning Bossmods would have major consequences but not for mythic raiding guilds. We would develop our own external timers, some of them would get banned, some not.

However, normal/heroic pugging would become impossible. Let's face it, heroic pugs don't really progress because they explode after 1 or 2 fails and most puggers learn the fights through bossmods alerts.
And most people who use weakauras don't go further than rotation helper.

Banning those things would hurt the semi-casual crowd the most.

People just live under illusion that bossmods is some modern thing. They existed literally forever, it's just in past - Vanilla and like - bosses barely had anything going on so it appeared as if the mods were very basic, but that's all you needed because bosses were literal tank and spank with maybe 2-3 abilities that half the raid may not even give a damn about.

Only in very late AQ (Twin Emps+) and Naxx some actual mechanics started to appear and even then by today's standards - lol - even dungeon bosses are more complex. Really C'thun, IMO, was pretty much the first boss that had actual basic complexity about it and much of it was countered by range checker addon, because chaining that shit beam was a wipe right away.

And even with that - pretty much everyone was spamming 1-2 buttons and most casters sitting regening mana half the bloody encounter. Basically one can see the video above.


TLDR: Boss Mods existed forever, it's funny seeing people asking to remove what existed already in Vanilla.

[Millyraynge]

Anything else I should provide? My blood type maybe?

I was in Twentyfourseven on Dunemaul.

BTW - Huhuran kill vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWaZyJFLNJQ
As you can see mods are there, also notice the very complex gameplay during raid encounter.


Look who's here standing there spamming Flash of Light for whole damn encounter, because that was all that really needed to be done. I was a healer back then - spamming smartheal FoL macro 90% of the time which automatically picked up lowest HP guy and tossed FoL on him - insanely difficult and yes macros were doing these things back then.

If I wanted to be sassy I'd pop Divine Favor and land uber Holy Light on whatever I wanted, usually tank. Then basically back to spamming FoL because it was mana efficient.


Ze hard encounter, everyone sitting with hands in their asses half the time waiting out 5 seconds casting rule. Heck I'm glad I was a pally, I could actually spamheal with FoL all encounter - super engaging compared to mages and such who were basically afking half the encounter panting for mana.

Sorry. I dont want to trigger you. But its completely meaningless to claim something what happend some years ago. You can't do anything to fundamentally proof your story. Maybe you have played in vanilla, 97.5% of the player base never managed to overcome razorgore or vael before 1.12. Your story (with all the details) seems in my eyes like experiences from a private server.

[Gaidax]

Sorry. I dont want to trigger you. But its completely meaningless to claim something what happend some years ago. You can't do anything to fundamentally proof your story. Maybe you have played in vanilla, 97.5% of the player base never managed to overcome razorgore or vael before 1.12. Your story (with all the details) seems in my eyes like experiences from a private server.

Kay, if you say so. /shrug

Private server, lul.

[kamuimac]

who in mythic dont use DBM? or even heroic in progression? ok being hyperbolic, but liar to this point....

5 % of players do mythic - which means "only" 95 % dont do it - why care about irrelevant difficulty that you mentioned - its issue mostly Affecting lfr/normal.

[krl]

The funny thing is, other games have created raid encounters more difficult and complex than anything in WoW without any DBM-style addons available.

There was a discussion on reddit about that, were players from top guilds coming from other games such as Wildstar talked about their move to WoW and how modern WoW's raid are up there regarding complexity. Videos of high lvl encounters were linked, that was the consensus.

WoW's raids and dungeons are doable by everyone, it's just most of the population is absolutely stupid they don't know what to do. This is 2017 WoW, so.

Devs have told they designed encounters nowadays with very experienced players in mind. And world first guilds interviews confirmed it. Some modern WoW encounters are complex.

Dissing mythic raid encounters as easy, brainless, or anyone can do, is delusional. We don't lack applicants but a good part of them fail, even some with supposedly good experience with "skilled" games.

[Laqweeta]

There was a discussion on reddit about that, were players from top guilds coming from other games such as Wildstar talked about their move to WoW and how modern WoW's raid are up there regarding complexity. Videos of high lvl encounters were linked, that was the consensus.



Devs have told they designed encounters nowadays with very experienced players in mind. And world first guilds interviews confirmed it. Some modern WoW encounters are complex.

Dissing mythic raid encounters as easy, brainless, or anyone can do, is delusional. We don't lack applicants but a good part of them fail, even some with supposedly good experience with "skilled" games.

So out of the 1.8m active that's about 200K? o.o... (USA, of course)

[Swiftshadow]

Pve should be like PVP. You choose on what to use when you think its appropriate. Not just do a rotation and avoid fire.

Rotation = Choosing the correct skill to use at the right time. i think thats what you just said!
Avoid fire = Use whatever skill I have or move to avoid damage. you also have to do this to "outplay" your pvp opponent

just kidding. I get what u mean. Pvp is more dynamic compared to raid mechanics that are mostly scripted.

Btw even with these addons and research, ALOT of raid groups are still wiping @ a few of ToS mythic bosses. It's still significantly difficult.

Anyways imo, its both Blizz encounter design and severely outdated UI that makes these addons necessary. Until this changes, expect DBM/BigWigs etc to still be almost mandatory for raiders.

[omeomorfismo]

5 % of players do mythic - which means "only" 95 % dont do it - why care about irrelevant difficulty that you mentioned - its issue mostly Affecting lfr/normal.

since when normal need DBM?