Mythic plus killed the raiding scene.

[Glorious Leader]

Good

Raiding gets the majority of dev time and money and energy. It gets the best gear bar none including ridiculously powerful tier and trinkets. It tells all the major lore and basically carries the story forward. All this and raiding STILL CANT FUCKING CARRY THIS GAME WHEN THEY THROW EVEN A LITTLE BIT OF COMPETITION AT IT.

Good. Fucking. Riddance. Raiding snowflakes should know their place. And it's at the back of the line.

[Gaidax]

I disagree. Social guilds used to exist in substantial numbers and that's where someone could learn a little bit about raiding. Now they're impossible to find thanks to Blizzard killing social guilds with their perk system a few years ago. So raiding now demands players that are ready-to-raid but opportunities to step in and learn as you go are very limited. That's a change and a big one.

That's nonsense. Compared to how it was in the past - raiding has never been more accessible. You can get raid ready gear in a matter of a couple of weeks and apply to a simple Heroic guild, which does raiding but not on the level to demand ludicrous demands, all the while you can do normals that are pugged easily or M+.

In past a guild had to gear the guy, unless he jumped ship from another guild with similar-ish progression and in past past there was whole attunement thing.

Raiding still offers considerable benefits for those who want to do it and specifically due to accessibility it is perfectly possible for a fresh guy to find a spot in a guild that does not have its nose glued to the ceiling and work it up from there.

[Aaronioslo]

you must get high to get a ilvl955 from WQ or relinquished vendor after grinding 5000h of trivial stuff?

But yeh I do get my kicks from killing challenging stuff without outgearing it. For me gear is a tool to accomplish my goal of killing harder stuff. People who play this game to get gear for epeen purposes without using it properly, are the people I tend to avoid.

just a natural conclusion from your statement, while you made an assumption about me.

are you seriously arguing that people shouldn't be rewarded for doing challenging content and the challenge itself is enough?

all the athletes must be doing whatever they do for the challenge.

get real

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Good

Raiding gets the majority of dev time and money and energy. It gets the best gear bar none including ridiculously powerful tier and trinkets. It tells all the major lore and basically carries the story forward. All this and raiding STILL CANT FUCKING CARRY THIS GAME WHEN THEY THROW EVEN A LITTLE BIT OF COMPETITION AT IT.

Good. Fucking. Riddance. Raiding snowflakes should know their place. And it's at the back of the line.

everyone who is not you must be snowflakes.

[Glorious Leader]

just a natural conclusion from your statement, while you made an assumption about me.

are you seriously arguing that people shouldn't be rewarded for doing challenging content and the challenge itself is enough?

all the athletes must be doing whatever they do for the challenge.

get real

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everyone who is not you must be snowflakes.

No not everyone. Only the raiders who complain that other content has destroyed what they like to do. Or that they are forced to do that content.

[Marrilaife]

No one much believes in the "Let's find good people that are a good fit with the team and we'll gear them up" business any longer.

Guilds that were forced in the past to pick up people from the street and gear them up often ended up as a gear up factory for the higher-up guilds who were poaching from them, common in vanilla and TBC. If you have low progress, you have to pick leftover players no one else picked, you're stuck gearing them up instead of progressing, so the players who have the gear and skill are gonna hop to guilds who actually progress.

That's why Blizzard changed it that nearly every raid tier is a gear reset and gearing up is more on the player than on the guild (and it's also easier for players to gear themselves up if they put effort, gear was never so plentiful outside of raids as it is in Legion).

[MORGATH99]

Haha good joke I laughed. 0/10

[Gaidax]

No not everyone. Only the raiders who complain that other content has destroyed what they like to do. Or that they are forced to do that content.

Really? Because the raiders I know could not care less.

What is the more usual thing is various shitter pretend-raiders are crying about how things are tough, how titanforge is mean and unfair and how DBM molested them when they were kids and they are now on the road of vengeance against it and of course how WoW and raiding are dying. The usual.

[Deleted]

True the rewards for doing things other than raiding have never been so good, but Mythic+ doesn't get you your set bonuses.

Raiding is still alive and well because not only is the reward still there but people continue to raid for the environment that comes from the raid itself and the guild your in and the challenge associated with raids.

[Trend]

I disagree. Social guilds used to exist in substantial numbers and that's where someone could learn a little bit about raiding. Now they're impossible to find thanks to Blizzard killing social guilds with their perk system a few years ago. So raiding now demands players that are ready-to-raid but opportunities to step in and learn as you go are very limited. That's a change and a big one.

EDIT: But, single reason threads for why something is happening are always wrong and sometimes quite stupid. Especially when it relates to human behavior and why players do what they do.

Sounds very anecdotal. I've been raiding since the very beginning and I have had a very different experience than you. I do not remember any period of time in which more than a handful of raid leaders wanted to bring along noobs and sing Kum ba yah. All of the raids I have seen personally have been either somewhat demanding or total failures. That's just my experience.

Right now I have an alt on a different server & faction than my main to play with some casual RL friends and I've had no issues finding raids ... and I have not a single time linked an achievement from my main because I think that would be misleading. I don't want to be expected to do 1.4M and come in at 800-900k on an inferiorly equipped alt.

And this comes back to what I asked before: how many hundreds of thousands of people need to be raiding before people stop acting like Blizzard ruined raiding somehow? Nothing is every perfect and I don't agree with how Blizzard has implemented some things, but overall I am amazed how alive the raiding scene is.

[MoanaLisa]

Guilds that were forced in the past to pick up people from the street and gear them up often ended up as a gear up factory for the higher-up guilds who were poaching from them, common in vanilla and TBC. If you have low progress, you have to pick leftover players no one else picked, you're stuck gearing them up instead of progressing, so the players who have the gear and skill are gonna hop to guilds who actually progress.

As bad as poaching was that more or less demonstrates my point. There were lots of guilds doing lower level raiding that acted as training grounds for higher level raiding. I don't raid anymore. I'll be upfront about that. My impressions about raiding in 2017 is that recruitment ads are nearly all about mythic. And the requirements are quite understandably high.

A lot of people simply won't pug because that's a high chance of entering a cesspool. And guilds running recruitment ads for normal/heroic are practically non-existent.

If you are inside the circle of the raiding community and have been for a while I would argue that it's possible that you're missing just how difficult it is to find those normal/heroic guilds without consulting outside sites, etc. Just a perception though. I've had some experience trying to actually locate a very loose low requirements guild to hang out with. They're really difficult to find and most of the ones you do find can't really field a raid team a lot of the time. If that's the case it has to have some effects on upstream raiding. And frankly, I've heard pretty much nothing but bitching about how hard it is to recruit and field a 20-member raiding team for mythic. Logically all that hangs together. Hell, even pro sports know the value of farm teams.

=====================

Sounds very anecdotal.

It is. Not trying to claim it isn't. And it's highly dependent on your realm and a lot of other things. No argument there. Last time I raided with any real seriousness was Tier 11 (Cataclysm). But you could find social guilds then that were trying to build 10-man teams. But yes, it's all anecdotal.

[Deleted]

Raiding's been kept alive on life support by LFR for years.
It's about time it died for good.

Agreed, about time LFR kicked the bucket.

[Blayze]

Agreed, about time LFR kicked the bucket.

I knew going in someone would be a smartarse.
I just didn't expect it'd take as long as it did.

[Trend]

No not everyone. Only the raiders who complain that other content has destroyed what they like to do. Or that they are forced to do that content.

You are very confused. Raiders aren't complaining. People who are not good enough to raid are pretending that X has killed the raiding scene, just like they've been doing for the past 13 years.

And for a raider doing a 10 key each week is irrelevant and trivial. LOL, you really have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe show us on the doll where the bad raider touched you?

[Gaidax]

Agreed, about time LFR kicked the bucket.

That's one thing I don't understand... why? I am genuinely curious why LFR is so hated by some people. So some people get to see the raid in story mode and maybe get a trash epic or two, o no, unacceptable!

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You are very confused. Raiders aren't complaining. People who are not good enough to raid are pretending that X has killed the raiding scene, just like they've been doing for the past 13 years.

And for a raider doing a 10 key each week is irrelevant and trivial. LOL, you really have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe show us on the doll where the bad raider touched you?

This basically.

[Marrilaife]

I disagree. Social guilds used to exist in substantial numbers and that's where someone could learn a little bit about raiding. Now they're impossible to find thanks to Blizzard killing social guilds with their perk system a few years ago. So raiding now demands players that are ready-to-raid but opportunities to step in and learn as you go are very limited. That's a change and a big one.

I don't think they don't exist, in group finder especially for normal difficulty raids I've met a few "semi guild runs" that were the quintessence of casuals / inexperienced raiders trying to tackle the content, and tbh contrary to the hate "4 raid difficulties" get I believe that normal mode was a good addition for these types of guilds.

Ease of pugging did draw some portion of players away from normal / hc mode guilds, but on the other hand it seems too many people are "cba playing on a schedule" they win in numbers over people who want to be in casual raiding guilds, so the lfg tool was to satisfy more at the expense of fewer.

[Trend]

I don't raid anymore. I'll be upfront about that. My impressions about raiding in 2017 is that recruitment ads are nearly all about mythic. And the requirements are quite understandably high.

...

And guilds running recruitment ads for normal/heroic are practically non-existent.

Not trying to be a dick, but you're talking about things you don't know about. Try raiding and then talk about raiding.

I was playing with casual friends, they quit (what ended up being temporarily), so I wanted to start raiding, which I would have done all along. At that point there was no way I could have raided mythic, so I was looking for a group progressing through heroic. I went through hundreds of posts advertising guilds looking for players for heroic. Most were on Blizzard realm forums but some were on MMO-C I'm pretty sure. In any case, there are a lot of them. Go look at wowprogress and see how many heroic raids are still progressing. You don't think they're looking for players who can help them?

And of course mythic gets more focus for recruitment. Those raids don't flex. If you are a player or 2 short, that means you're either going to have a night off or have a much harder time. Normal/heroic doesn't matter, there are no empty slots unless you're short of 10 or you don't have role flexibility. Don't assume that because you don't notice the openings for normal and heroic that they're not there. There are tons of opportunities for people to raid no matter what their skill level and experience is.

[Deleted]

The 4 difficulties and multi mode raids killed the raiding scene.
Much better when it was ONE difficulty/mode, period.

Better for who?

[Aggrophobic]

The raiding scene is fine



Raid designs and rewards are fine.

No, the raids have not been "fine" in Legion.

[Marrilaife]

I've had some experience trying to actually locate a very loose low requirements guild to hang out with. They're really difficult to find and most of the ones you do find can't really field a raid team a lot of the time. If that's the case it has to have some effects on upstream raiding. And frankly, I've heard pretty much nothing but bitching about how hard it is to recruit and field a 20-member raiding team for mythic.

That's where group finder comes in, I've seen it in WOD already, guilds who can't fill the quota for an evening pick spares from the lfg tool. Yes, the transition from "12 people on a good night" heroic guild into a mythic one is extremely hard, but at the moment I doubt these guilds have much reason to actually go into mythic. If we're talking about chill relaxed guilds with low entry requirements and expectations, trying to go into mythic might actually scare off the people who joined in the first place expecting stress free environment and "raiding for fun".

I'm pretty sure you've seen a few threads around about the drama that arises when few ambitious individuals try to "drag the guild upwards" especially from heroic to mythic but even from normal to heroic while the players participating just wanted the casual approach.

Allowing normal / heroic to scale was great for guilds who don't enforce high attendance so can't know upfront how many people will show up on a given night.

I think the 20man requirement bites the hardest for the guilds who end up the tier around 30-70% mythic completion, they're already out of "heroic only" zone and want to stay in mythic, but they aren't prestigious enough to attract players, players who aim for mythic aim for guilds above them, so they're stuck in some form of limbo. I see guilds trying to pug missing people for things like mythic sisters etc. every week, I kinda feel bad for that bracket of playerbase - too good for hc, not good enough for clearing mythic.

[sam86]

raiding died (for me at least) because of token wow, spend 1502 hour raiding and a guy who doesn't live in a shit of country buy some tokens, get gold in-game, buy boost, and here gear far superior than me with zero effort
and if u don't believe check twisting nether EU trade chat, they sell every raid u want on every difficulty
I raided hardcore during wrath, managed few server firsts with my guild, strict schedule 3 nights 25 raids 3 10 men etc, trying to do all there is, back then i felt rewarded for what i do, now i see ppl just because game sub don't cost them over 10% of their salary can spare few more $$, buy tokens, and get everything and more than i bust my ass trying to get, so now for me game is just altoholic very casual sh8t and nothing else