Mythic plus killed the raiding scene.

[Doffen]

I would want them to make World Quest World Cup or something instead of mythic+ invitational. Do all World Quests fastest way possible etc. That would be so fun! Would definetely kill both the dungeon and raiding scene!

[Pull My Finger]

I think 1 main reason is this : Gaming currently has evolved to "adaptable sessions".

What this means is that gamers now prefer the freedom of being able to jump in or jump out of a game without feeling forced to spend 1 long session. This is why MOBAs (average game lasting 30 to 50 mins, and can be as short as 20 mins or less) and games like Overwatch are so popular.

One thing Blizzard can change is the 20 man Mythic requirement, which I do not know why it is there in the first place. I am sure they could find ways to introduce difficulty without the requirement of more raiders in it.

Another possible change is the amount of pointless (and sometimes annoying) trash in the raids. For eg. the trash before Desolate Host. Either reduce the walking in between bosses or reduce the trash involved to reach the bosses.

All this can reduce raid durations significantly and hence reduce time consumption.

Shorter gaming sessions is the new thing in multiplayer gaming. Blizz has to adapt to this to attract new or retain existing players.

Something needs to be done for sure. The last time I raided was Cataclysm, and one of the major reasons I just didn't wanna put up with it any more is because how insanely bored I was. It just takes too damn long, and as you said, often much of it is just completely pointless, dumb trash packs. And I don't know what kind of adult person actually has that kind of time.

One thing that is perhaps to be considered: age of video game players has increased across the board. It used to be kids and teens, then early twens, but by now, many people above the age of 25 play video games regularly. Even a lot of people above 35. And a lot of those folks were young raiders in early WoW, like me. But finding a spot during a normal day where you can just kick back for a while and do some gaming is already difficult. And when I do have the time and the opportunity, it's a window. I can't fuck around, wait for shit, organize shit or do something I'd probably have to to do for hours for it to show results. And then be obligated to do this 2 or 3 times a week.

I think increasing age of gamers has a part in how it has evolved in recent years.

[Eurhetemec]

I think increasing age of gamers has a part in how it has evolved in recent years.

There's no question about it, really. The sort of games that are viable for me and my friends (35+) are not ones where you can block out 4+ hour sessions multiple times a week. It's not that you never spend that long playing, it's that you can't just block it out, and think it will definitely happen - particularly as people tend to have conflicting schedules far more at 30+ than 16 or 25 or whatever (even without kids, work and social obligations can be a big deal).

M+ is far viable than raiding, for sure, because of this. Even if I can block out 2-3 hours two times fairly reliably, because I have a really steady job, a lot of my friends can't, my wife can't (and she's more pro than I am at MMOs), and so on, because many jobs, by the time you're in your late 30s, you're managing shit, and can't just "check out" at 5.30 and forget work exists (I can with my current role, but couldn't with my previous one).

Ironically enough, I feel like the pre-WoW, non-instanced approach to raiding was much more friendly to this kind of player. I remember in DAoC we had a bunch of 30-40-50-year old players (in 2002!), and they could make raids, and enjoyed raids, because you kinda COULD "drop in, drop out". A raid was a lengthy on-going process, which was essentially public (there were no instance-based raids, just huge, complicated, tough raids that actually existed in the world - imagine a gigantic super-dungeon zone full of mean trash - individual pulls were tougher than some bosses in WoW, in relative terms - and particularly mean world bosses, if you never experienced it). If you could only turn up for part of it, you could only turn up for part of it.

[primalmatter]

Titanforging hurt it more then anything... well not mythic raiding but heroic and normal.

Mythic is pretty much the stone in the river. It sits unchanging to the seasons.

[Kikazz]

Less and fewer people raid today, with mythic + gear being easier to obtain. It's just as good as mythic raiding gear. With how the mythic + esport is going we can expect from now on Mythic + will always be a thing and it wont change other than more dungeons and affixes. I love dungeons as much as the next guy, but getting better gear from mythic raidng is a joke. The dungeons are not hard enough to where they should get better gear, until you do a 17 key the content is a joke, assuming you do it on your main.

I cant link anything because Im new, it says "You are not allowed to post any kinds of links, images or videos until you post a few times." However you guys can look up what I just said through WQ and WoW progress.

no what killed raiding, was limiting the difficulty to a rediculous number and expecting the 10 man hardcore guilds to suffer trying to recruit. and the 25 mans to drop people.

some guilds did better other guilds struggle every tier.

blizzard fixing the raid size killed raiding.

10/25 split was better, yes it had its problems but people could do both, and compete at the top end.

[Deleted]

It hasn't but I wouldn't mind if it did, dungeons are much more fun than raids.

[Deleted]

Good thing that raids die, too many people play this game's content only because of the loot carrot at the expense of actually asking for a fun adventure, admiring the landscapes and immersing within the ecosystem that an MMO should create. Too bad WoW is a farce of an MMORPG for it to ever change

[Sansnom]

The rest of the game is shit. If raiding dies, you lose a lot of subs from the game and it will not survive.

Then why are people having this conversation about how M+ is killing raiding?

[Sharby]

M+ is the one of the best features of this xpac.

[Deleted]

Mythic plus is actually one of the better features of the entire expac. Sure it has it's problems, but there are a couple much bigger problems that "killed" raiding. Titanforging, Randomness of legendaries, and forced class stacking are all bigger reasons for me, as a long-time raider to stop raiding this expansion. M+ just showed me that I enjoy 5man content which I can approach my way a lot more than the soakfest that was ToS

[Deleted]

I would want them to make World Quest World Cup or something instead of mythic+ invitational. Do all World Quests fastest way possible etc. That would be so fun! Would definetely kill both the dungeon and raiding scene!

Welcome one and all, to the North America Pet Battle Invitational Tournament!

We've got an exciting match for your viewing pleasure today! In the blue corner we have the orc mage XxThrallsballsxX and his team containing Mr. Ruffles, Cookie, and Steve! An impressive and versatile lineup indeed, all leveled from level 1 all the way to 25!

In the red corner we have the tauren shadowpriest, yes they do exist aparrently, Beefstew with his min maxed auction house bought team containing Kill3r, Grillidan and 420slayit

We go now to our commentators at the esports desk for our pre-match snalysis, stay tuned!

Imagine what that would do to raiding dude!

[Deleted]

Since i came back to the game in March this year, i've had to jump through 3 guilds who could not get enough numbers to fill a mythic roster after clearing heroic ToS, most leaving to play other games (PUBG being the main candidate) others just quitting the game out of burnout/frustration.

When i finally made it into a guild with around 35 active people about to start Mythic progression, we obviously had to bench a few people(me included) and on our way to 5/9 Mythic that roster of 35 quickly became 20 as egos came into the picture and people getting benched started leaving. Then 3 of the active/core raiders left for IRL reasons and now were stuck with 17 people, farming heroics and more people dropping hints about leaving for other mythic guilds or quitting for other games like Destiny 2, Diablo 3 season 12, etc.

I don't know whether it's an attitude problem with players today were they just want instant gratification and aren't willing to wait their turn or it's the strict 20 person restriction on Mythic raids that's causing this, but i never faced this problem raiding through TBC and Wrath where the roster requirements were higher(25) and more people would get benched more often.

This, this and even more this. Seen 3 horde mythic guilds on Doomhammer EU collapse this tier due to roster issues, we had a very similar experience to yourself where we merged with another mythic guild and had close to 40 members, within weeks we had 23 active members and what you described came to fruition within another 3 weeks. As far as I'm aware there will be no mythic raiding guilds on horde doomhammer EU for the last tier. With someone that has 15+ level 110 characters its not easy to just "suck it up" and move to a different server as I love having my mobile economy of alts, but Legion has drained my time so much that I have unsubbed for the first time in about 8 years, time has slowly killed wow for me, time and the recruitment boss

If the transfers were cheaper and you could bundle multiple characters for a discount, I think we'd see more raiding guilds. At the moment it just feels like you've got lots of people playing on smaller servers with about 15-18 raiders who can't/won't move due to financial restrictions or misplaced loyalty to their online friends

my 2 cents

[HyperJay]

Underwhelming Trinkets like BTI, COF, Foci, Whispers, Draught, Glaives, Engine, Medallion, Sea Star, Grand Design, Most Tank Trinkets.

Underwhelming Relics?? They give the same traits they just have different item names lol.

Underwhelming Sets?? I play Arms Warrior and T20 is great. T19 was great for Fury and T21 for Prot and Fury. My Resto Shaman will enjoy T21 as it enjoyed T20 too. Mage is doing fine with all the great 2 pieces. I rarely meet people that do better with slightly higher non tier compared to tier... until T21 Arms comes out.

Titanforging as a problem needs to stop. I don't see that many people with insane titanforges. My highest item is a tier helm at 955 but it dropped on Mythic so... Sure it's annoying seeing people walking around with super high titanforged arcano's I'd love but if all their other gear is 915-920 from heroic and M+ and they aren't that good it won't matter if they have 1-4 high af titanforges.

I have 2 M+ pieces of loot equiped, 1 is my bracers and the other is a ring because I'm unlucky in raid.

And restating. Relics aren't different. They give traits to your weapon they just have different ilvl and name. And with trinkets, the most likely way to get a good trinket at good ilvl is your weekly chest from a 10. I got a Horn 935 from it, but it randomly selects from any dungeon and item so chances of getting that Memento, Horn or EoC is pretty low.

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No? Strict 20 man makes balancing for those mechanics easier on the devs. If a guild can't cope with getting 20 players together and communicating about benched players then maybe they shouldn't do Mythic? And if the benched players are leaving thats not a Mythic Raid problem thats a Player Base problem.

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Why are you here then? People like raids because it's a challenge with a reward. I also enjoy High M+ for same reason. Exploration is why theres levels, quests and lore in the game

[Eurhetemec]

If the transfers were cheaper and you could bundle multiple characters for a discount, I think we'd see more raiding guilds. At the moment it just feels like you've got lots of people playing on smaller servers with about 15-18 raiders who can't/won't move due to financial restrictions or misplaced loyalty to their online friends

That's certainly true (though "misplaced loyalty" is pretty funny), and not just at Mythic level, but I'm not sure how Blizzard feel about it, because if they made transfers a lot cheaper, and/or allowed bulk discount transfers (with a big discount), I think we'd see people increasingly flooding to a relatively small number of servers, which has a lot of negative impacts for Blizzard on both ends.

I know they can see the conflict between actual server communities and cross-server stuff, but I strongly suspect that they're coming to see the latter as the future, and, if anything, will move in that direction, i.e. making servers less relevant, rather than making it easier to move around.

[Iflash]

Mythic plus didn't kill raiding, but it certainly did not help keep it alive.
Mythic plus is really fun, and you don't have to give up going out 3 nights a week.

[Deleted]

That's certainly true (though "misplaced loyalty" is pretty funny), and not just at Mythic level, but I'm not sure how Blizzard feel about it, because if they made transfers a lot cheaper, and/or allowed bulk discount transfers (with a big discount), I think we'd see people increasingly flooding to a relatively small number of servers, which has a lot of negative impacts for Blizzard on both ends.

I know they can see the conflict between actual server communities and cross-server stuff, but I strongly suspect that they're coming to see the latter as the future, and, if anything, will move in that direction, i.e. making servers less relevant, rather than making it easier to move around.

I've just said it on another thread, but it really does feel like the lack of server-merging and the reluctance to fix some of these relatively dead servers is only because they know that the profits from even 10% of that playerbase paying for transfers is enough to cover the cost of people unsubbing. At the end of the day if it fits with the profits then thats the model they'll go with as a business. Wow is no longer there main source of cash so why would they care

[Eurhetemec]

I've just said it on another thread, but it really does feel like the lack of server-merging and the reluctance to fix some of these relatively dead servers is only because they know that the profits from even 10% of that playerbase paying for transfers is enough to cover the cost of people unsubbing. At the end of the day if it fits with the profits then thats the model they'll go with as a business.

Cheap transfers would probably make more money, at least in the short-term, than the current pricing, because lowered cost but massively increased volume is a win.

However, I think Blizzard are worried about two things:

1) Under-populated or moderately-populated servers and server-clusters would take a BIG hit from this. Basically anyone remotely serious about raiding would leave them for more-populated servers. This would impact a lot of stuff, including the AH/economy in general for those, and make them even worse to be, which would lead to even more people leaving them, or just quitting the game.

2) Heavily-populated servers would see even more queues and frustration and so on, leading to a lot of complaining and potentially quitting, both from players already on the servers and from those joining them.

Both of these could be very bad, so I think Blizzard would prefer to look at ways of making servers matter less, as much that is arguably "un-MMO".

Wow is no longer there main source of cash so why would they care

We don't know if that's true, actually, and even if WoW isn't #1, it's #2, so yeah, they care about keeping it making money. When Activision mentioned their "top three earners" last time they did a report, it was a mobile game (I forget which), Overwatch, and WoW. So if you're thinking it's not a big deal, it is a big deal.

[Doffen]

Welcome one and all, to the North America Pet Battle Invitational Tournament!

We've got an exciting match for your viewing pleasure today! In the blue corner we have the orc mage XxThrallsballsxX and his team containing Mr. Ruffles, Cookie, and Steve! An impressive and versatile lineup indeed, all leveled from level 1 all the way to 25!

In the red corner we have the tauren shadowpriest, yes they do exist aparrently, Beefstew with his min maxed auction house bought team containing Kill3r, Grillidan and 420slayit

We go now to our commentators at the esports desk for our pre-match snalysis, stay tuned!

Imagine what that would do to raiding dude!

haha, love it!

[Hotsforyou]

no what killed raiding, was limiting the difficulty to a rediculous number and expecting the 10 man hardcore guilds to suffer trying to recruit. and the 25 mans to drop people.

some guilds did better other guilds struggle every tier.

blizzard fixing the raid size killed raiding.

10/25 split was better, yes it had its problems but people could do both, and compete at the top end.

I have to agree with this 100% as well. It is a serious struggle to maintain a 20 man roster and i hate it. I want 10 Man back or i may not resub next expansion. Tired of recruiting being like a 2nd job at this point. Can't do it anymore.

[Deleted]

Raiding's been kept alive on life support by LFR for years.
It's about time it died for good.

Rading scene was healthy without LFR. LFR is reason why raiding scene is dieing. Hell i quit raiding becouse of LFR. What kind of sane person would ever bother with normal, heroic or mythic when you can faceroll that content in LFR. Yeah sure you get better gear and some useless achievemts but it still isnt worth of that time what you have to put into mythic raiding.

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What's wrong with Mythic +? Probably the best end game feature they have added to WoW since...raiding. It's like raiding, but with a much tighter group, less time commitment (per run) and infinitely scaling challenge.

Pretty sure people would rather have hard dungeons like those back in vannila and TBC where players run 1 dungeon for 3 hours instead of facerolling 20 dungeons per day.