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  1. #1
    Elemental Lord Tekkommo's Avatar
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    Sensible Discussion about Classic

    Classic was great for it's time.

    There is many things wrong with it (many things right) and I don't want to see many changes.

    But let's take a sensible approach to it.

    Questions
    -Do you really want to drink after buffing (when in sufficient gear, I still think classes should have the items in their bag)?
    -Do you really want crap UI addons? (by UI addons I mean graphic only, but don't kid yourself, all vanilla bosses are simple compared to today and we know all tactics. Addons like quest helper exist on private servers, so that means they will exist on the classic, what is missing is up to date graphic UI addons).
    -Raid drops, will you be happy raiding MC and bosses only dropping 2 items, sometimes for a Shaman/Paladin that you can't use? This means when BWL and other raids come out, it will still be a requirement to raid older tiers (which isn't really a bad thing).
    -As a warlock will you be happy grinding kills before every the raid, to hand out HSs and trade them individually?
    -Mages, will you be happy to trade your entire raid individually to give them water?
    -No dual spec? I remember having tanks do nothing but dps (well you can call it dps I guess) because a fight didn't require a certain amount of tanks. People didn't like respeccing due to the cost back in the day, but private servers have shown that it is easy to make gold when you know what to do.
    -I'm unsure about the length of Paladin buffs (I played Horde, but in TBC I always enjoyed annoying my Paladins for the Salvation buff to be renewed via macros).
    -Windfury totem should definitely remain

    I'm sure there are many more minor things that can be improved.

    I don't want any class balancing, changes to the talent trees, changes to the PVP system, changes to levelling speed, changes to gold income, I just think there is small issues which are more annoying than anything and will not change your experience at all, unless you consider not drinking after buffing game changing.

    I'll play regardless, I just think there could be minor improvements made which won't change the experience for new people.
    Last edited by Tekkommo; 2017-11-05 at 04:55 AM.

  2. #2
    Titan Arbs's Avatar
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    I think the best course of action would be fix what was exploits, game breaking & could cause big bad issues. AQ Gates constantly crashing servers & ZG Blood Plague are examples of stuff to fix.

    But I would say don't make any drastic changes, keep it to a purest mindset. But don't go to far like exploiting under Stormwind or Diremaul. Fix the shit that needs to be fixed & leave the rest. Like Prot Paladin being useless & only good with Thunderfury in PvP is fine to stay that way.

    But again making Prot Pallies viable can be a interesting twist & maybe add some flavour to Raids, but again that isn't Vanilla. So it is a whole bunch of questions, I'm sure that will be asked. I know private servers do some funky things, like if Addons that did exist back than add in QoL I think it is better than Blizzard doing it & make some change like that.
    Last edited by Arbs; 2017-11-05 at 05:29 AM.
    I don't always hunt things, But when I do, It's because they're things & I'm a Bear.


  3. #3
    Slippery slope, once you make any QoL changes it just opens the floodgates. Even among the points you mentioned there are some seemingly innocuous changes that would be more than QoL and detract from the vanilla experience.

    -Raid dropping only 2 pieces per boss should not be changed. The value of gear isn't just the stats but the effort put into getting it. Actually having epic gear means more when it's more scarce and considering there will be no new raid content added anyways, I don't see how having a long gear grind would be a bad thing since it will keep people around for longer.
    -No dual spec. The prohibitive cost of respeccing helped contribute further to a sense of player and class identity. There's also a bit of redundancy because for example, warriors still had stances so even without being prot spec, you could switch to def. stance and equip a shield and kind of tank, the reduced effectiveness was kind of the price you paid for being main-spec DPS. This is also kind of a non-issue for raiders since the majority of classes only have a single viable raiding spec.

    The only change you mentioned that would probably be acceptable is removing the possibility of shaman/pally gear dropping from bosses for the opposite faction.

  4. #4
    Field Marshal Mindelan's Avatar
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    The thing is I don't want to make things any easier than they were. They don't need QOL changes. At most, do some visual upgrades here and there to keep things a tad fresher visually and fix the old bugs that broke things on a massive level. Other than that, the game should remain as it was all those years ago. Having to balance DPS with the fact that you will pull threat and get curb-stomped, buffing people one at a time, lack of mana between fights, etc, etc. Did it make life harder? Yes. But, it's how it was. And I won't cherry pick something I like when I want the actual experience again.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    -Raid drops, will you be happy raiding MC and bosses only dropping 2 items, sometimes for a Shaman/Paladin that you can't use?
    Are you suggesting that shaman loot can drop for alliance and paladin loot can drop for horde? because this isn't how it worked. this only existed for a brief period during the TBC pre patch(once blood elf paladins and draenei shamans became a thing even tho technically still locked away)

  6. #6
    Titan Arbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frybarek View Post
    Slippery slope, once you make any QoL changes it just opens the floodgates. Even among the points you mentioned there are some seemingly innocuous changes that would be more than QoL and detract from the vanilla experience.

    -Raid dropping only 2 pieces per boss should not be changed. The value of gear isn't just the stats but the effort put into getting it. Actually having epic gear means more when it's more scarce and considering there will be no new raid content added anyways, I don't see how having a long gear grind would be a bad thing since it will keep people around for longer.
    -No dual spec. The prohibitive cost of respeccing helped contribute further to a sense of player and class identity. There's also a bit of redundancy because for example, warriors still had stances so even without being prot spec, you could switch to def. stance and equip a shield and kind of tank, the reduced effectiveness was kind of the price you paid for being main-spec DPS. This is also kind of a non-issue for raiders since the majority of classes only have a single viable raiding spec.

    The only change you mentioned that would probably be acceptable is removing the possibility of shaman/pally gear dropping from bosses for the opposite faction.
    I will say I agree with the Shaman/Pally Shaman Gear not dropping. But I would disagree with only 2 pieces of gear dropping. It was indeed a pain in the ass back than even with 40 people. I would be willing to say 4 pieces of loot drop. 2 gear pieces & 2 Tier pieces or 3 gear drops 1 tier piece how ever it will work. If no Tier only 2-3 pieces drop.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenoathcarn View Post
    Are you suggesting that shaman loot can drop for alliance and paladin loot can drop for horde? because this isn't how it worked. this only existed for a brief period during the TBC pre patch(once blood elf paladins and draenei shamans became a thing even tho technically still locked away)
    Yes it worked this way, it was really shitty when it happened. Which why the faction lock was really dumb & glad it is gone.
    Last edited by Arbs; 2017-11-05 at 05:41 AM.
    I don't always hunt things, But when I do, It's because they're things & I'm a Bear.


  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbs View Post
    Yes it worked this way, it was really shitty when it happened. Which why the faction lock was really dumb & glad it is gone.
    No, it did not work this way, with the exception of the TBC pre-patch, horde could not get paladin tier items, and alliance could not get shaman tier items.

  8. #8
    The Patient Zaeyla's Avatar
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    To tell you the truth I'm perfectly fine with all of those things I made do with it in vanilla, I made do with it on vanilla servers already and I can make do with it when official classic servers are released.

    All of these little things while they are easily annoying at first glance enough to make you want to rage they most serve a greater purpose in the greater scheme of things, many make it so you value you're gold more (No Dual spec/expensive respec costs/ammo/regents etc) others cause to value when good drops happen in raids(Pally/shammy loot dropping for faction without) pally buffs not last very long made it so pally's needed to constantly pay attention and we're more needed since you couldn't just have a pally buff you at raid entrance and not be in the group etc.

  9. #9
    Titan Arbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenoathcarn View Post
    No, it did not work this way, with the exception of the TBC pre-patch, horde could not get paladin tier items, and alliance could not get shaman tier items.
    You seem to be the only one who thinks it didn't happen, When everyone else remembers it very clearly. But whatever you say dude.
    I don't always hunt things, But when I do, It's because they're things & I'm a Bear.


  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbs View Post
    You seem to be the only one who thinks it didn't happen, When everyone else remembers it very clearly. But whatever you say dude.
    So why was it a big deal during the pre patch, when everyone started complaining about this very issue, since blood elves and draenei were still technically locked away but the loot started dropping.

    https://www.engadget.com/2006/12/07/...g-as-intended/

    "A few different folks have reported in the Blizzard forums that some pally gear has been dropping for the Horde in the raid instances, and shammy gear has been dropping for the Alliance. Is it January 16th yet? Can I go ahead and make that Blood Elf pally? Uh....no. "

    I guess I'm just remembering it wrong.

  11. #11
    Titan Arbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenoathcarn View Post
    So why was it a big deal during the pre patch, when everyone started complaining about this very issue, since blood elves and draenei were still technically locked away but the loot started dropping.

    https://www.engadget.com/2006/12/07/...g-as-intended/

    "A few different folks have reported in the Blizzard forums that some pally gear has been dropping for the Horde in the raid instances, and shammy gear has been dropping for the Alliance. Is it January 16th yet? Can I go ahead and make that Blood Elf pally? Uh....no. "

    I guess I'm just remembering it wrong.
    Oh ya your remembering it wrong. Because it happened in Vanilla Whether it is 1.0 or 1.12, It Happened.

    We will not have Blood Elf Paladin or Draenei Shaman.

    Blizzard will define the ruleset of where the game sits, it will not in most cases have all the changes Vanilla had from 1.0 to 1.12. It will prbly sit on a stable 1.12 patch like all private servers do. With raids & BGs brought out accordingly.

    That was the whole point of this discussion, don't have the Paladin / Shaman drops at all for the other faction.
    Last edited by Arbs; 2017-11-05 at 06:07 AM.
    I don't always hunt things, But when I do, It's because they're things & I'm a Bear.


  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbs View Post
    Oh ya your remembering it wrong. Because it happened in Vanilla Whether it is 1.0 or 1.12, It Happened.
    And yet there's a news article that backs up my recollection of events, and not yours. This happened during 2.0, a.k.a for all intents and purposes it happening during the burning crusade and not vanilla.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbs View Post
    That was the whole point of this discussion, don't have the Paladin / Shaman drops at all for the other faction.
    And my point was that this never happened anyway, So don't worry about it
    Last edited by kenoathcarn; 2017-11-05 at 06:11 AM.

  13. #13
    Titan Arbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenoathcarn View Post
    And yet there's a news article that backs up my recollection of events, and not yours. This happened during 2.0, a.k.a for all intents and purposes it happening during the burning crusade and not vanilla.

    And my point was that this never happened anyway, So don't worry about it
    Oh no you don't worry
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  14. #14
    I would love to see respec costs go away/way down. The "character identity" thing is nonsense. I was forced to play holy or disc on my priest in raids. However, I was shadow by choice otherwise. I'd have to spend silly amounts of time farming enough gold for raid mats/repairs, only to have to spend even more gold on a respec back to shadow for bgs/world pvp/farming.

    Back then I did pve to get good pvp gear. In my experience back then, shadow power/spell power gear from raids was more useful than the high stamina gear from pvp (for a shadow priest).
    Bandwagon sports fans can eat a bag of http://www.ddir.com/ .

  15. #15
    Fix bugs, but leave everything else alone. It wouldn't be vanilla if they started changing things.

  16. #16
    Brewmaster Deztru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrackerzod View Post
    Fix bugs, but leave everything else alone. It wouldn't be vanilla if they started changing things.
    Then again it will be WoW Classic, not necessarily Vanilla.

    They talked that having to drink after a couple buffs is a bit iffy and they have to work it out if they want to change anything at all.
    Last edited by Deztru; 2017-11-05 at 09:44 AM.

  17. #17
    High Overlord Thrax's Avatar
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    The announcement literally was a reference to Vanilla ...

    Only bug fixes (like C'Thun).

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    -Do you really want to drink after buffing (when in sufficient gear, I still think classes should have the items in their bag)?
    Yes. Regen was a small but integral part of the leveling. Spirit was actually useful for people who knew their stuff (breaking news : spirit is a great stat for a leveling warrior, and yes, really). Each class had its own way to deal with attrition, and this was part of it (for example : mages emptied quickly their mana, but could drink/eat ; rogues had to use lots of CC to not take a lot of damage, as their regen was very bad ; warriors had very strong regen, but took a lot of damage in every fight ; priests would kill very slowly, but would have healing and big mana regen so they would never need to stop ; etc.).
    -Do you really want crap UI addons? (by UI addons I mean graphic only, but don't kid yourself, all vanilla bosses are simple compared to today and we know all tactics. Addons like quest helper exist on private servers, so that means they will exist on the classic, what is missing is up to date graphic UI addons).
    No add-on is needed, though I wouldn't mind a better log to have a decent Recount (Damagemeter was really, really rough and barely functionnal).
    -Raid drops, will you be happy raiding MC and bosses only dropping 2 items, sometimes for a Shaman/Paladin that you can't use? This means when BWL and other raids come out, it will still be a requirement to raid older tiers (which isn't really a bad thing).
    Yes. Slow gearing is an integral part of Vanilla, and a major difference with the McDonald gearing (easily come, easily thrown away) of today's retail. DO NOT TOUCH THIS.
    -As a warlock will you be happy grinding kills before every the raid, to hand out HSs and trade them individually?
    Yes. Same with hunter food and arrows. Fluff making classes distinct instead of a reskin of each other is also an integral part of Vanilla's charm.
    -Mages, will you be happy to trade your entire raid individually to give them water?
    Yes. Utility is fun. See right above.
    -No dual spec? I remember having tanks do nothing but dps (well you can call it dps I guess) because a fight didn't require a certain amount of tanks. People didn't like respeccing due to the cost back in the day, but private servers have shown that it is easy to make gold when you know what to do.
    Spec being an actual decision that had weight was also part of the roleplay aspect in Vanilla. I wouldn't mind a way to make it easier to switch spec, but slippery slope being what it is, I'd prefer Blizzard to not try to be clever.
    -I'm unsure about the length of Paladin buffs (I played Horde, but in TBC I always enjoyed annoying my Paladins for the Salvation buff to be renewed via macros).
    Late Vanilla included 15 mn buffs already.

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbs View Post
    You seem to be the only one who thinks it didn't happen, When everyone else remembers it very clearly. But whatever you say dude.
    You're wrong, he is right.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deztru View Post
    Then again it will be WoW Classic, not necessarily Vanilla.

    They talked that having to drink after a couple buffs is a bit iffy and they have to work it out if they want to change anything at all.
    If they start this shit, they can just spare themselves the work and us the rage, and stop developping these servers.
    Keep it as it was. Fuck them for even considering it.

  19. #19
    I remember WoW vanilla and it was immersive as hell!
    You had to chose your spec and stick to it, level up your weapon skills.
    Do you remember that magic classes equipped with a wand could auto-attack with it?

    The Warlock mount quest!!! This will be painful (again) but ooooooooOoooOoh that was good :P Same as the quests to unlock the pets.

    I think WoW classic will be a good feature, aside the main WoW expansion X releases, that could gather a solid core of old players.

  20. #20
    Deleted
    I think the answer to that should not be based on arguments, but on a simple look to audience's demand. Tons of people played vanilla classic realms that were accurate to actual vanilla with all the imbalances, difficulties etc. That means people want THAT experience, not some kind of hybrid.
    Im not even sure that bugs should also be fixed, or exploits like wall jumping, cause that was huge part of MY experience and that would be something I would look forward to if it appeared again on these realms. Same for other bugs, they were also part of experience and gave flavor to the game.

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