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  1. #941
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irlking View Post
    Sigh it was sarcasm. Takes all the fun away when I have to explain it.
    It was pretty obvious too

  2. #942
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Not sure what you're trying to say here. I've never said the EU is a place full of saints where nothing bad ever happens. What I've said is that it's a safe place and every record and statistic in the book agrees with me.

    Suicide by gun is really an American thing, to be honest. Mostly, because our cops don't pull the gun and shoot at the slightest provocation. See, since our cops can expect most people to not have guns, they're really relaxed about shit and are super cool at deescalating situations. And since most people don't have access to guns on a regular basis, anything gun related really isn't the first thing that jumps to mind when people think about doing bullshit here.

    When you think "gun", we think "big ass kitchen knife". A gun crime in Europe with only 1-2 casualties is big enough to actually make the news. That's how few of those we get. In the US? News doesn't even report on gun deaths anymore. Because that's normal routine.

    Here, random headline today:

    http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justi...a-1176619.html

    This is one of our weekly magazines reporting about a hostage situation on their homepage. He's armed with "at least" a knife. That's how crime typically looks like in Europe. We still have bad dudes, just like you do. But unlike you, we know already that this dude won't be able to get more than 2, maybe 3 before he's overpowered and in custody.
    No I'm talking about the one thousand or so germans every year that suicide by gun. It might not seem like that a big of number but it happens in every country. Unfortunately here it is the number for of death by gun. I think we are around twenty one or twenty thousand per year. I think suicide by gun is something that needs to be addressed more than just trying to penalize people for lawfully owning guns.

  3. #943
    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    No I'm talking about the one thousand or so germans every year that suicide by gun. It might not seem like that a big of number but it happens in every country. Unfortunately here it is the number for of death by gun. I think we are around twenty one or twenty thousand per year. I think suicide by gun is something that needs to be addressed more than just trying to penalize people for lawfully owning guns.
    This isn't and has never been about penalizing people for lawfully owning guns. It's always been about making it less desirable and easy to own guns. Suicide rates are really not the issue here. Although, without looking, I know our statistics on suicides per 100k overall are probably lower than the US due to the general lack of guns in Europe. The lethality rates of gun suicides is much higher than that of knife or drug related suicides.

    But... that is a different topic, really. I don't have much sympathy or see the need to protect society from suicide by guns. That's a matter of protecting that individual from himself. If that fails, you have one victim that actually got what it wanted, so yeah not really concerned about that while talking in a thread about a mass shooting inside a church.
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  4. #944
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    This isn't and has never been about penalizing people for lawfully owning guns. It's always been about making it less desirable and easy to own guns. Suicide rates are really not the issue here. Although, without looking, I know our statistics on suicides per 100k overall are probably lower than the US due to the general lack of guns in Europe. The lethality rates of gun suicides is much higher than that of knife or drug related suicides.

    But... that is a different topic, really. I don't have much sympathy or see the need to protect society from suicide by guns. That's a matter of protecting that individual from himself. If that fails, you have one victim that actually got what it wanted, so yeah not really concerned about that while talking in a thread about a mass shooting inside a church.
    Well it's related because the past two mass shootings have ended in suicide. It's a common feature that ties all of them together.

  5. #945
    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    No I'm talking about the one thousand or so germans every year that suicide by gun. It might not seem like that a big of number but it happens in every country. Unfortunately here it is the number for of death by gun. I think we are around twenty one or twenty thousand per year. I think suicide by gun is something that needs to be addressed more than just trying to penalize people for lawfully owning guns.
    Suicide by gun is <300 / year in germany. It happens, but it's very rare. Total number of suicides is ~10k/year.

  6. #946
    there's nothing to debate about gun control, bearing arms is a constitutional right and the first politician that tries to deny that right is going to be starting a civil war. Even if hypothetically they banned guns, it would just create a lucrative black market trade that would run them across the mexican border. If the war on drugs is considered a failure then so would any war on guns be considered just as impossible. There's no answer to stopping people doing heinous acts if they choose to, much like there is nothing stopping people renting a truck and driving it through a crowd of people, it's a mental health issue.

  7. #947
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    how many people in the US do you think own guns??
    because i can tell you it is nowhere near as many as you think
    That's actually pretty well known.. One third of the US households..
    320 million people, incl every baby every elder people who certainly don't have any.
    About 1 gun per person statistically. 1/3 of all US households have at least 1 firearm.
    If we attribute 1.5 people per household, we have about 213 million households. One third of that have firearms, that's 71 million households. That makes it roughly 106 million people with firearms in their homes.
    https://qz.com/1095899/gun-ownership...-three-charts/
    http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/...gun-ownership/
    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...cs-maps-charts

    It is really not hard to delve into the topic, and look at all the various data that's already existing.
    Doesn't matter if the current administration effectively cancelled/prohibits any further research on the matter.
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  8. #948
    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Well it's related because the past two mass shootings have ended in suicide. It's a common feature that ties all of them together.
    I'm not sure if suicide is really the obvious angle of attack here. Sure, it's there, and hey, do something about it, because it needs to be addressed. But it's a tough sell to tell the families "We feel your loss, we will make sure that mental health issues are addressed, so we will treat potential mass murderers with more care in the future."

    Couple things that jump to my mind about this...

    1. You don't know who's going to suicide like that before hand. Good luck weeding them out.
    2. Guns are much, much easier to regulate than mental health issues.
    3. GUNS are tying them together. Occam's razor is your friend here, as well. It's in the name: Mass SHOOTING. Not mass random weapon related suicide.

    What you want is immediate solutions, not long term medical plans that may or may not work out for you guys in the future.
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  9. #949
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    No I'm talking about the one thousand or so germans every year that suicide by gun. It might not seem like that a big of number but it happens in every country.
    mhmm...


    that's a 7 years old data.. however the trend may still be the same.
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  10. #950
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by btorz View Post
    there's nothing to debate about gun control, bearing arms is a constitutional right and the first politician that tries to deny that right is going to be starting a civil war. Even if hypothetically they banned guns, it would just create a lucrative black market trade that would run them across the mexican border. If the war on drugs is considered a failure then so would any war on guns be considered just as impossible. There's no answer to stopping people doing heinous acts if they choose to, much like there is nothing stopping people renting a truck and driving it through a crowd of people, it's a mental health issue.
    Australia imposed strict gun control laws.

    And big surprise, it worked. Mass shootings and firearm homicides decreased sharply. We aren't talking about drugs, here. We're talking about guns. Drugs are a strawman.


    Additionally, the constitution and its amendments can be interpreted different ways without repealing them. And I'd say the country's current interpretation of a "well-regulated militia," as described by the actual wording of the second amendment is sorely lacking.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  11. #951
    Quote Originally Posted by btorz View Post
    there's nothing to debate about gun control, bearing arms is a constitutional right and the first politician that tries to deny that right is going to be starting a civil war. Even if hypothetically they banned guns, it would just create a lucrative black market trade that would run them across the mexican border. If the war on drugs is considered a failure then so would any war on guns be considered just as impossible. There's no answer to stopping people doing heinous acts if they choose to, much like there is nothing stopping people renting a truck and driving it through a crowd of people, it's a mental health issue.
    A civil war that would be so one sided, heck, Brazil would pity you even after losing to Germany 1-7.

    It's not about absolutes. It's about reducing numbers. But extremist people really have trouble seeing the grey zone that makes 90% of the issues. They're so binary, really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Australia imposed strict gun control laws.

    And big surprise, it worked. Mass shootings and firearm homicides decreased sharply. We aren't talking about drugs, here. We're talking about guns. Drugs are a strawman.


    Additionally, the constitution and its amendments can be interpreted different ways without repealing them. And I'd say the country's current interpretation of a "well-regulated militia," as described by the actual wording of the second amendment is sorely lacking.
    Actually, I've always wondered why they're not taking it literally. A well-regulated militia is literally (sic!) screaming for more gun regulation. What you see now is the opposite of well regulated. It's sorely lacking regulation, that's why people see guns as a toy rather than what they are. Lethal weapons.
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  12. #952
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Well it's related because the past two mass shootings have ended in suicide. It's a common feature that ties all of them together.
    ...that's really not particularly relevant. Hell I don't know why people are bringing up suicide; I really don't think many people are arguing for gun control because they think it's the best way to stop people from killing themselves, or are arguing that it is the main goal of gun control.


    Frankly I don't particularly care whether people kill themselves with a gun or by jumping off a bridge as far as gun control statistics are concerned; what those people actually need is mental help above anything else. So I consider people bandying out "suicide by gun" statistics either in support of or trying to negate the merits of gun control to be diluting the argument; I'd say even intentionally obfuscating it in some cases.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  13. #953
    Quote Originally Posted by btorz View Post
    there's nothing to debate about gun control, bearing arms is a constitutional right and the first politician that tries to deny that right is going to be starting a civil war. Even if hypothetically they banned guns, it would just create a lucrative black market trade that would run them across the mexican border. If the war on drugs is considered a failure then so would any war on guns be considered just as impossible. There's no answer to stopping people doing heinous acts if they choose to, much like there is nothing stopping people renting a truck and driving it through a crowd of people, it's a mental health issue.
    There already is a lucrative black market trade that runs them across the Mexican border.
    How do you think Mexican drug cartels get all those illegal guns they have? From the US.

  14. #954
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    mhmm...


    that's a 7 years old data.. however the trend may still be the same.
    Jesus. Every metric on here pounts of how bad the USA is. Whilst guns are a huge issue the culture of violence is also terrible.

  15. #955
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by btorz View Post
    there's nothing to debate about gun control, bearing arms is a constitutional right and the first politician that tries to deny that right is going to be starting a civil war.
    You know that's nonsense, right?
    It's an amendment.. It is meant to be changed according to the society's wishes.
    Even if hypothetically they banned guns, it would just create a lucrative black market trade that would run them across the mexican border.
    That's a good point, but those are American weapons that would be traded back into the country. It seem to evade you that in order to stop illegal trade you go after the maker.
    There can't be any weapons smuggled if you hold the manufacturer directly responsible.
    If the war on drugs is considered a failure then so would any war on guns be considered just as impossible.
    False.. See above.
    The drugs are made outside and brought back in. The weapons are made inside. Just got to prohibit them from leaving the country in the first place.

    There's no answer to stopping people doing heinous acts if they choose to, much like there is nothing stopping people renting a truck and driving it through a crowd of people, it's a mental health issue.
    It is true, there's no stopping people from heinous crimes. However there sure as hell are ways to make it much harder to access the tools to commit the crimes with.
    The US isn't the only country on the planet. But the only one with that problem...
    Because it's the only one stupid enough to claim that there's no remedy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Unhinged View Post
    Jesus. Every metric on here pounts of how bad the USA is. Whilst guns are a huge issue the culture of violence is also terrible.
    Well... not exactly. The suicide rate is not among the worst. It simply appears that Americans just use different tools to kill themselves.
    Effectively the stats tell us, that whoever wants to die will find a way to do so.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  16. #956
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Additionally, the constitution and its amendments can be interpreted different ways without repealing them. And I'd say the country's current interpretation of a "well-regulated militia," as described by the actual wording of the second amendment is sorely lacking.
    It is also very recent.

  17. #957
    Quote Originally Posted by Unhinged View Post
    Jesus. Every metric on here pounts of how bad the USA is. Whilst guns are a huge issue the culture of violence is also terrible.
    "Culture of violence" is a ridiculous concept to begin with, because humans in general are violent creatures.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  18. #958
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    American law enforcement is often authoritarian. You just seem to be even more authoritarian than them.

    You want to go door to door, and search their homes.
    If that is what it takes to prevent future tragedies, sure. Is the freedom to own guns worth the lives of 5 year old children?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    This shooter apparently had a dishonorable discharge from the Air Force. So by federal law he was not suppose to possess a firearm. How he got one is a issue which needs to be addressed.
    He didn't. He had a discharged because of misconduct or what it is called. He could legally own guns.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    Abortion is murder
    Wrong. Check your laws.

  19. #959
    So a Atheism that hated religious people.

  20. #960
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    It is true, there's no stopping people from heinous crimes. However there sure as hell are ways to make it much harder to access the tools to commit the crimes with.
    The US isn't the only country on the planet. But the only one with that problem...
    Because it's the only one stupid enough to claim that there's no remedy.
    It's not even about making it much harder to access the tools to commit the crimes with. You can rob a man with a knife just as well as with a gun. The key here is to reduce the fatalities, really. That's the only core point that's worth discussing at this point. Will it stop robbery? Nope, probably not. Will it stop mass shootings? It will make it a lot harder to take a gadzillion people with you. I've rarely heard of mass stabbings that had dramatic casualty rates. I hear of dramatic casualty rates in relation to guns every week. All of those news coming from the US.
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