Subtlety Rogue RDPS Rework?

[jadedfuture]

Complete speculation here, just an idea I thought was interesting.

Seeing as surv hunter is now a melee spec, and WoW definitely needs a new ranged DPS spec in the lineup.. Why not take the concept of Alleria and Sylvanas - two augmented huntresses who use either void/shadow magics, and implement it into a spec? Specifically, sub rogues.

Assassination has always had the "DoT spec" identity, and now Outlaw/Combat is, well. A pirate. But subtlety is.. What?

Subtlety has always lacked a concrete theme in WoW. The only thing core to it over the past few expansions was Shadow Dance, and even that is vague. What are you doing when you are shadow dancing? What is Nightblade? Infecting the target with a shadow disease..? Despite how fluid sub plays when not paying attention to what your spells are actually doing, I think this lack of a concrete theme is something they should address and perhaps work into a ranged weapon wielding, shadow magic augmented hunter. Perhaps implementing some themes from old survival hunter and mashing them with what sub is now?

Just a thought.

[shaunika123]

don't fucking touch my sub.
if you're gonna make a rogue spec ranged it has to be outlaw with double 1h guns.

not a spec with 13 years of heritage

also, the theme of sub is "stealth", and it's about huge burst windows

[elfporn]

don't fucking touch my sub.
if you're gonna make a rogue spec ranged it has to be outlaw with double 1h guns.

not a spec with 13 years of heritage

also, the theme of sub is "stealth"

Bah, 13 years of heritage applies to most** classes, so much has changes to all.

I agree though - i wouldn’t feel too bad about having outlaw move towards being ranged. Though i don’t think they will do it. Blizz is too attached to the swashbuckler archetype. I think i would enjoy more focus on the pistol abilities, more damage/impactfulness.

[jadedfuture]

not a spec with 13 years of heritage

also, the theme of sub is "stealth", and it's about huge burst windows

Not really sure what you're saying here. "Huge burst windows" isn't a theme. It's a mechanic. Stealth, for rogues, is spec-agnostic. If this is really what Sub's theme is, it's a pretty shit one.

13 years of heritage didn't matter to surv hunters either.

Put blatantly: WoW needs more ranged specs, and it desperately needs more ranged weapon users. This could fix that and provide some interesting mechanics if done correctly. Stealth would still be a big part of RDPS Sub's kit, but I think ranged DoTs and continuing the legacy of their burst windows could still be really cool.

Also, blizz is gonna touch every class. It's a new expansion. You can't say "don't fucking touch my sub" now because there's a good chance the entire class is gonna see sweeping reworks.

[ymirsson]

Why does WoW need more ranged specs? Any why would anyone consider butchering a working spec. Especially after the PR desaster that is survival.

[shaunika123]

Bah, 13 years of heritage applies to most** classes, so much has changes to all.

there's a difference between changes (which sub went through a lot) and making it a completely new spec that isnt even the same role.

I mean, the only such example is survival, and look how popular that spec is

Why does WoW need more ranged specs? Any why would anyone consider butchering a working spec. Especially after the PR desaster that is survival.

simply because of class distribution, plus there has been negative 1 ranged specs added to the game since it started

Not really sure what you're saying here. "Huge burst windows" isn't a theme. It's a mechanic. Stealth, for rogues, is spec-agnostic. If this is really what Sub's theme is, it's a pretty shit one.

13 years of heritage didn't matter to surv hunters either.

Put blatantly: WoW needs more ranged specs, and it desperately needs more ranged weapon users. This could fix that and provide some interesting mechanics if done correctly. Stealth would still be a big part of RDPS Sub's kit, but I think ranged DoTs and continuing the legacy of their burst windows could still be really cool.

Also, blizz is gonna touch every class. It's a new expansion. You can't say "don't fucking touch my sub" now because there's a good chance the entire class is gonna see sweeping reworks.

poisons were also spec agnostic up till legion yet assa was still the poison spec basically since the game started.

a spec that makes use of stealth much more efficiently than the other rogue spec and is centered around huge burst windows, is a pretty strong theme.

that survi hunter argument is shit, because the spec has been basically dead since they made it melee.

and sure, wow needs more ranged specs, just not one of the most iconic specs and THE most iconic rogue spec.

and there's a difference between "touching", and butchering beyond any recognition.

if anything survival should be changed to that shadow void ranger spec.

[Eazy]

Assa is Assassin.
Outlaw is Pirate.
Subtlety is Ninja.

[nexellent]

No, revert sub to how it played from wotlk-wod

[Swalload]

Complete speculation here, just an idea I thought was interesting.

Seeing as surv hunter is now a melee spec, and WoW definitely needs a new ranged DPS spec in the lineup.. Why not take the concept of Alleria and Sylvanas - two augmented huntresses who use either void/shadow magics, and implement it into a spec? Specifically, sub rogues.

Assassination has always had the "DoT spec" identity, and now Outlaw/Combat is, well. A pirate. But subtlety is.. What?

Subtlety has always lacked a concrete theme in WoW. The only thing core to it over the past few expansions was Shadow Dance, and even that is vague. What are you doing when you are shadow dancing? What is Nightblade? Infecting the target with a shadow disease..? Despite how fluid sub plays when not paying attention to what your spells are actually doing, I think this lack of a concrete theme is something they should address and perhaps work into a ranged weapon wielding, shadow magic augmented hunter. Perhaps implementing some themes from old survival hunter and mashing them with what sub is now?

Just a thought.

I would much rather see outlaw as a pistol spec from range, and remove the rng and make it not suck balls.

[shaunika123]

No, revert sub to how it played from wotlk-wod

current sub is pretty much the same in almost any thematic thing except for burst windows being every 30(25) seconds instead of 60

[Socialhealer]

I would much rather see outlaw as a pistol spec from range, and remove the rng and make it not suck balls.

you could make it with like traps and shit with shots that explode they could call it....survival rogue!

[Deleted]

why does everyone want to destroy rogue?

[nexellent]

current sub is pretty much the same in almost any thematic thing except for burst windows being every 30(25) seconds instead of 60

if you actually believe that, you never played sub pre-legion or you were unaware of how it actually worked.

[elfporn]

if you actually believe that, you never played sub pre-legion or you were unaware of how it actually worked.

we're actually well aware of how it worked. and we're doubly aware of how much it changed each expansion. The spec definitely wasn't the same from wotlk to wod. And only really shined in dragonsoul and hfc(in pve).

Most people want hfc sub back because it was top dps - and that only because of the perfect storm of legendary ring and soulcap. But that's a different argument.

Your attack on shaunika's credibility is unwarranted. Sub right now plays similarly to how it played in WoD in that you plan your rotation around supporting burst windows, though they come every 30/25sec instead of every 60. The missing component is FW - that damage has been compensated for, easily, in various buffs to abilities.

[Gnarilex]

I switched over from caster mains to a sub rogue for legion and have enjoyed it immensely. I don't personally feel like it needs a total thematic overhaul. Especially after coming from a shadow priest which still doesn't have a solid theme (it's even more broad than ever before). The spec flows well, shadow visuals are nice. Get that feeling of dancing in and out of stealth. If any rogue spec were to go ranged I feel like it'd be outlaw, but more of a melee/ranged hybrid. Kind of like a mesmer in gw2 with a sword/offhand X greatsword combo, rotating between the two ranges. But if I'm honest I don't think any of them need to go ranged.

[shaunika123]

if you actually believe that, you never played sub pre-legion or you were unaware of how it actually worked.

I've mained sub literally since Vanilla, the latest pre legion iteration of it, was using shadow dance and vanish for burst windows and set up with rupture and slice and dice beforehand to make the most of them.

now you use symbols/vanish/shadowdance for burst windows, and set up with nightblade beforehand, whilst making sure you have a shadow dance for all of those burst windows, but never overrun on the stacks.


both versions are about setup for limited burst windows, and play in an almost identical way aside from the fact that you do them every 30 seconds

the only thing that's gone is find weakness, but we essentially got symbols of death and finality instead.

I'm not going to argue whether it's worse or not because that's mostly subjective, but thematically it's still the same


sure pre 7.2 sub wasn't the best(especially without the correct legendaries) but that's gone now.

[Deleted]

don't fucking touch my sub.
if you're gonna make a rogue spec ranged it has to be outlaw with double 1h guns.

not a spec with 13 years of heritage

also, the theme of sub is "stealth", and it's about huge burst windows

don't fucking touch my outlaw
if you're gonna make a rogue spec ranged, it has to be subtlety with double 1h shuriken

kidding

[Xanatu]

They already said no specs are being overhauled. Maybe in 3 more years.

[Deleted]

Sub is the most iconic rogue spec, did you miss the mass outrage when the spec was gutted for Legion? And how blizz were forced into reverting many of the changes?

If you want to turn a spec into a dumb ranged spec then take outlaw since it's already been mangled beyond recognition anyway and it might fit the jack sparrow fantasy.

[Acidthefraud]

I've always thought that sub was the most entertaining spec honestly. It is literally the most notable rogue spec, i think it should be left as is.