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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgummage View Post
    Molten Core will probably be 10-15manned in the first few weeks, it was balanced with almost half the raid being dead weight anyway.

    After that some of the bosses will be cock-blocks, most will be cake walks.

    I think the real "skill" will only start showing up with AQ40/Naxx.
    Did you even Vanilla no ofc you didnt with a statement like this, you wont get passed Lucifron with 15 ppl not even in BiS Blues, do you really think half the raid was just standing around doing nothing?
    Most classes were hell of alot easier to play back then and many had 1-3 buttons to even press to do optimal dps how shit do you think guilds were.
    Garr you will need atleast 4 warlocks for example, good luck on baron when half your 15 man raid gets bombs.
    And then there is Ragnaros which guilds wiped on for weeks after having all others on farm because of the dps needed to down him, your healers will be oom before the first set of sons are down let alone your 5th set with the low dps you will have.
    Things may have been mechanically easy but most of those easy mechanics would literally kill you if you failed them.

  2. #122
    LBRS for the MC fire resist buff.

    Anything with nature resist for huhu.

    Rogues raging because Fury Warriors had Dal'rends and/or a couple pieces of leather.

    Hunter's wanting EVERYTHING.

    Pots. Sharpening Stones. Bandages. Tubers.

    Threat was actually a thing.

    UBRS needed a key.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Cellineth View Post
    Raiding will be a joke because 1) our current addons are OP AF and are much more advanced than addons used back in Vanilla, so they will carry hard 2) mechanics of raid bosses in Vanilla are a joke compared to current 5 man dungeon bosses
    If they really want anything close to a vanilla feel to things they are going to have to disable add ons. Even if they don't the prep to raid and rounding up 39 other people is where the meat of the difficulty was back then.
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    That's be totally fake though. You absolutely could have had WA and so on, it's just that people didn't. It wasn't because the functionality wasn't there, though. The Vanilla implementation of LUA was VASTLY MORE POWERFUL than modern LUA. You could do 10x more with it. You could access a million things that got banned in TBC and Wrath.

    So what they really need to decide is either have modern LUA, which is limited but well-supported by addons, or revert to some earlier version of LUA, which is OPAF, but maybe not as well-supported initially.
    there's no weakauras as far as i know, and i've looked through a lot of vanilla addons.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post
    there's no weakauras as far as i know, and i've looked through a lot of vanilla addons.
    Yeah, but there COULD HAVE BEEN, that's what I'm saying. It wasn't that it couldn't have been done - it was just that no-one did it.

    The same is true for vast arrays of addons that didn't exist back then. There are some which needed hooks not added until later, but the vast majority could have been done, and there were bunches of addons in Vanilla that died in the TBC and later Wrath LUA purges.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cellineth View Post
    Raiding will be a joke because 1) our current addons are OP AF and are much more advanced than addons used back in Vanilla, so they will carry hard 2) mechanics of raid bosses in Vanilla are a joke compared to current 5 man dungeon bosses
    the actual hard part of raiding in vanilla was being able to not DC on a modem connection and to have ~40 people online and at the keyboard at the same time. Mechanics-vice they were never hard
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodeus View Post
    Did you even Vanilla no ofc you didnt with a statement like this, you wont get passed Lucifron with 15 ppl not even in BiS Blues, do you really think half the raid was just standing around doing nothing?
    Yes, basically they were.

    As I've said before, I was in the most-progressed guild on our server, the first to down BWL and AQ40 fully (well, might have been second on AQ40 but it was disputed), and we commonly said you only needed 25 people to be actually playing. And that was back then, when people were way worse at the game.

    So MC 15-manned within weeks? You can count on it. Possibly 10-manned.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cellineth View Post
    LMAO you are in denial if you don't think addons are shit tons more advanced now than what we used back then. Even top guilds didn't have amazing addons to carry their ass like today. See weak auras vs archimonde as an example:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx6ipbVOWvY

    I really don't care about your snowflake build, it's a fact people didn't realize how to properly gear their character for a long time. There just wasn't as much information/theorycrafting/guides or general help to get as there is now.

    There wasn't simcraft, there wasn't wordloflogs etc.
    Actually, addons were probably more powerful back then. Blizz had to ban certain things because addons took it way too far. Stuff like decursive or thaddius addon that put arrow on your screen where to go and even had voice telling you(funnily enough, people still wiped even with those).

    In vanilla you could do almost anything with addons. Hell, we had force assist addon, made by guy in our guild, that everyone had to download and then raid leader would just press a button and all dps would auto target that guy and just had to smack buttons lol.
    Only afterwards did they ban stuff like those. Its just that addons werent that well known and available, you had to know it exists and look for it. And some were private made by guilds for themselves.

  9. #129
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    It would be much easier to just make threat a factor to play with again for everyone to get the vanilla vibe instead of this can of worms.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Cellineth View Post
    Raiding will be a joke because 1) our current addons are OP AF and are much more advanced than addons used back in Vanilla, so they will carry hard 2) mechanics of raid bosses in Vanilla are a joke compared to current 5 man dungeon bosses
    Our current addons will need a lot of tweaking to work and it is possible a lot of them won't work properly in Classic.
    Easy mechanics of raid bosses vs terrible abilities from players. Seems like a good deal.

    I wouldn't really worry about it tbh. Even though you only need 30ish people to clear MC, you saw the shit-show that the anniversary MC was. There is a glut of shit players to fill up people's raids.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Yes, basically they were.

    As I've said before, I was in the most-progressed guild on our server, the first to down BWL and AQ40 fully (well, might have been second on AQ40 but it was disputed), and we commonly said you only needed 25 people to be actually playing. And that was back then, when people were way worse at the game.

    So MC 15-manned within weeks? You can count on it. Possibly 10-manned.
    I think it is more likely that you are full of shit. I think you didn't play vanilla at all. Otherwise you wouldn't be making ridiculous statements such as ...within weeks... The best players in the world took at least 7 days of playtime to get to 60. There use to be speed leveling competitions and it would take 7 days of /played to get to 60. There goes your theory of "...within weeks..." because you are not walking into MC with the gear that you leveled on with 15 players.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Dergiab View Post
    If raids are so easy, why are "bad specs" (ret paladin, shadow priest, boomkim etc) actively discouraged?

    If you don't care about topping the dps meter and only downing the boss, then specs wouldn't matter.
    Because tier gear only supported one spec and it was fixed. If you were a druid, or pally, or priest, your tier gear was for healing and that's it.

    What about off set gear? Did not work the same for every class. If you were a Warrior who wanted to DPS, your BIS was a blend of plate, male and leather (because tier was tanking stuff) and you would crush DPS meters. If you were a boomkin... not so much.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    If they really want anything close to a vanilla feel to things they are going to have to disable add ons. Even if they don't the prep to raid and rounding up 39 other people is where the meat of the difficulty was back then.
    Your vanilla was not my vanilla. Here is an archive of like 350 add-ons from vanilla wow, and this was like just in the 1st few search results http://www.vanilla-addons.com/dls/

    I distinctly remember people getting kicked for not running CT Raid Assist, KTM Threat Meter and a DKP add-on in my guild during MC/BWL progression.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Dergiab View Post
    If raids are so easy, why are "bad specs" (ret paladin, shadow priest, boomkim etc) actively discouraged?

    If you don't care about topping the dps meter and only downing the boss, then specs wouldn't matter.
    Because right now the best spec is about 15% stronger than the worst spec (let's say DPS).

    Ret Pally did 20% of what Rogues did. Kappa.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Yeah, but there COULD HAVE BEEN, that's what I'm saying. It wasn't that it couldn't have been done - it was just that no-one did it.

    The same is true for vast arrays of addons that didn't exist back then. There are some which needed hooks not added until later, but the vast majority could have been done, and there were bunches of addons in Vanilla that died in the TBC and later Wrath LUA purges.
    Who needs a weak aura to heal when you can just click on the top raid frame of Heal Bot and not only will that always be the person who currently needed healing the most, but the add-on would pick the right heal spell and the most efficient RANK of that heal spell to top them off without over healing or using too much mana?

    Who needs a weak aura to dps when your rotation is to spam frost bolt?

  14. #134
    First off, I wouldn't go that far as saying it'll be easy. Mechanics weren't the check back then, gear was. There were so many more gear checks than skill checks. Also it requires everyone doing their part(hell, very few will have riding or expert riding for a while and locks have to farm their soul shards and they take up space in their bags). Some of this will be fixed with hindsight but the gear checks are still there. I also think the api was much more limited in classic so it wasn't so much that addons are crazy advanced now as they didn't have the capability before. Cross realm stuff probably won't be in so it'll be like Mythic raiding except you need 40 people. No spec changes, threat matters(threat meters existed and it was still an issue back then), single totems on shaman, lots of specs didn't matter, long quest chains for specific gear(benediction/ana, rok, sulf, windfury), very few items dropped for 40 people. I mean, I think to some extent more people are familiar with the game but have you been in LFR lately? I think people completing Naxx will be very similar to before. There were literal addons to decurse for you and it was still an issue.
    Last edited by Mysta; 2017-11-07 at 03:17 AM.
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  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysta View Post
    First off, I wouldn't go that far as saying it'll be easy. Mechanics weren't the check back then, gear was. There were so many more gear checks than skill checks. Also it requires everyone doing their part(hell, very few will have riding or expert riding for a while and locks have to farm their soul shards and they take up space in their bags). Some of this will be fixed with hindsight but the gear checks are still there. I also think the api was much more limited in classic so it wasn't so much that addons are crazy advanced now as they didn't have the capability before. Cross realm stuff probably won't be in so it'll be like Mythic raiding except you need 40 people. No spec changes, threat matters(threat meters existed and it was still an issue back then), single totems on shaman, lots of specs didn't matter, long quest chains for specific gear(benediction/ana, rok, sulf, windfury), very few items dropped for 40 people. I mean, I think to some extent more people are familiar with the game but have you been in LFR lately? I think people completing Naxx will be very similar to before. There were literal addons to decurse for you and it was still an issue.
    It wasn't really that difficult to get dungeon gear though, from 50 to 52-3 you can farm sunken temple, from 52-56 you can farm BRD, from 56-58 you can farm diremaul and lbrs, from 58-60 you can farm ubrs/strat/scholo, so by the time you do actually hit 60 you'll probably have a decent selection of gear that will perform well enough for molten core.

    if zg exists as an entry raid, which it was it just came in after bwl, then getting epic gear will be even easier because imo zg was not really substantially harder than ubrs, 2x 10 man groups that can do ubrs could also do zg. with zg gear molten core becomes even easier than it was, it was doable in blue gear its blitzable if a bunch of ppl are sporting epics from zg. onxyia was also a joke i think the first time we did her we only had 36-7 ppl the raid. she was basically free epics every week even back then. the truth is the raid finder has always been more difficult than classic wows end game. onyxia is basically raid finder difficulty by todays standard and she drops t2 helms, not lfr loot, actual t2. farming t2 helms for everyone has probably been easier than any other tier save t5 shoulders and void reaver/loot reaver.

    also the 20 mans, zg and aq20 had 3 day resets back in the day, so you could run those twice a week. while the 40 mans reset weekly like they do today. zg and aq20 on 3 day resets is why i've never really agreed with the whole 'epics were epic' epic gear was very easy to get ppl were just too noob to form a raid and get it.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2017-11-07 at 04:12 AM.

  16. #136
    Addons are so advanced now lol. What makes you people think you will have today addon framework... you wanted vainilla..then classic addons you get.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    It wasn't really that difficult to get dungeon gear though, from 50 to 52-3 you can farm sunken temple, from 52-56 you can farm BRD, from 56-58 you can farm diremaul and lbrs, from 58-60 you can farm ubrs/strat/scholo, so by the time you do actually hit 60 you'll probably have a decent selection of gear that will perform well enough for molten core.

    if zg exists as an entry raid, which it was it just came in after bwl, then getting epic gear will be even easier because imo zg was not really substantially harder than ubrs, 2x 10 man groups that can do ubrs could also do zg. with zg gear molten core becomes even easier than it was, it was doable in blue gear its blitzable if a bunch of ppl are sporting epics from zg. onxyia was also a joke i think the first time we did her we only had 36-7 ppl the raid. she was basically free epics every week even back then. the truth is the raid finder has always been more difficult than classic wows end game.
    Only MC/Onyxia were available at launch none of the content you are talking about was available. here's a quick summary:

    1.1.0 - 07/Nov/2004 - "US Launch" MC/Ony
    1.2.0 - 18/Dec/2004 - Maraudon
    1.3.0 - 07/Mar/2005 - Dire Maul/Azuregos/Lord Kazzak
    1.6.0 - 12/Jul/2005 - Blackwing Lair
    1.7.0 - 13/Sep/2005 - Zul'Gurub
    1.8.0 - 10/Oct/2005 - Dragons of Nightmare(Lethon, Emeriss, Ysondre and Taerar)
    1.9.0 - 03/Jan/2006 - The Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj / The Temple of Ahn'Qiraj and Raid lockout changes
    1.9.3 - 07/Feb/2006 - various Zul'Gurub tuning and "Loot drop rate modifications"
    1.10.0 - 28/Mar/2006 - Added tier 0.5
    1.11.0 - 20/Jun/2006 - Naxxramas

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by kenoathcarn View Post
    Only MC/Onyxia were available at launch none of the content you are talking about was available. here's a quick summary:

    1.1.0 - 07/Nov/2004 - "US Launch" MC/Ony
    1.2.0 - 18/Dec/2004 - Maraudon
    1.3.0 - 07/Mar/2005 - Dire Maul/Azuregos/Lord Kazzak
    1.6.0 - 12/Jul/2005 - Blackwing Lair
    1.7.0 - 13/Sep/2005 - Zul'Gurub
    1.8.0 - 10/Oct/2005 - Dragons of Nightmare(Lethon, Emeriss, Ysondre and Taerar)
    1.9.0 - 03/Jan/2006 - The Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj / The Temple of Ahn'Qiraj and Raid lockout changes
    1.9.3 - 07/Feb/2006 - various Zul'Gurub tuning and "Loot drop rate modifications"
    1.10.0 - 28/Mar/2006 - Added tier 0.5
    1.11.0 - 20/Jun/2006 - Naxxramas
    I know when it came out, i started raiding zg in early 2006, it was meant to be a t1 entry raid, a raid to help ppl gear up for molten core, but why release a pre-tier 1 raid tier AFTER a t2 raid? that doesn't make sense with today progression mechanics, it didn't really make sense then either seeing as ppl were already starting on bwl before zg came along.

    likewise aq20 came super late, if you, like me started farming aq20 when it released, you still didn't really have enough time to make it that far through bwl. the content release was backward the 20 mans ended up being pretty much obsolete for ppl doing bwl or aq40, zg had the enchants and aq20 had those skill books but beyond that the content wasn't released in a smooth flowing way that it is today.

    zg should have just been there day 1, so ppl could gear up for molten core, and aq20 could have come sooner to help ppl go from molten core to bwl. but the dates they released meant the only ppl they helped where the ppl like me who started late and didn't make it that far in the end anyway.

    zg and aq20 just made molten core easier than it already was, aq20 had gear that was basically T1.5. the ilvl on aq20 gear is the same or slightly higher than the gear in molten core.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2017-11-07 at 04:20 AM.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    I know when it came out, i started raiding zg in early 2006, it was meant to be a t1 entry raid, a raid to help ppl gear up for molten core, but why release a pre-tier 1 raid tier AFTER a t2 raid? that doesn't make sense with today progression mechanics, it didn't really make sense then either seeing as ppl were already starting on bwl before zg came along.

    likewise aq20 came super late, if you, like me started farming aq20 when it released, you still didn't really have enough time to make it that far through bwl. the content release was backward the 20 mans ended up being pretty much obsolete for ppl doing bwl or aq40, zg had the enchants and aq20 had those skill books but beyond that the content wasn't released in a smooth flowing way that it is today.
    ZG didnt just fill a loot "power" gap, it filled a loot quantity gap, remember ZG( and AQ20) had a 3 day lockout, instead of 7 days like MC/BWL

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Enthralled View Post
    Oh, I see -- in the post quoted above, you were counting a full 40-man raid as a 10-man because 30 players weren't performing up to par? I still shake my head "no" at what you said. The private server pros will come in and roflstomp MC very early with fully-contributing 40-mans, some of still wearing greens when going in. But not within 10 days of the server opening.

    And there's one more thing that I haven't seen suggested. I wouldn't be surprised to see Blizzard tune the difficulties of the raids a bit tighter in order to compensate for the higher levels of skill and knowledge that modern players have.
    Last popular private server had Rag killed in 11 days from fresh start. People were discussing Quintessences back then, and if the core handled them correctly. No one bat an eye on difficulty of the bosses themselves, because everyone know they are easy as shit.

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