[BREWMASTER] 7.X Discussion Thread

[keqe]

I'm going to keep using 4pc T20 for Antorus as I have quite well procced pieces for it. New tier is better to give for DPS/healers so it won't be relevant for progress anyway.

Once progress is done I'll just get mythic pieces for farm DPS.

[dcc626]

I'm going to keep using 4pc T20 for Antorus as I have quite well procced pieces for it. New tier is better to give for DPS/healers so it won't be relevant for progress anyway.

Once progress is done I'll just get mythic pieces for farm DPS.

i have 940 and 950 off pieces vs 915 and 920 set pieces, so ill just ignore tier for a bit longer i think. am interested in playing around with t21 at some point though

[ReD-EyeD]

I was reading new interview with supposedly best m+ brewmaster in the world here http://www.peakofserenity.com/2017/1...ith-jasonbrew/ and got across this:

Our other form of “utility” is to switch between very high damage and very heavy tankiness with our legendary choices. All tanks can obviously switch between trinkets to gain an edge offensively or defensively but few have options as powerful as Keg Smash Shoulders for offense or Soul Ring/Zen Med helm for defense.

Few months ago I said the same exact thing here in this thread that our utility is big pulls and Zen Med helm is actually good for that, but I was labeled idiot by every single person here. Everyone said that it's absolutely crappy and unusable because you're losing an extremely important seconds of dps and wasting a legendary slot for nothing when you just can kite mobs around for free.

[Gorsameth]

I was reading new interview with supposedly best m+ brewmaster in the world here http://www.peakofserenity.com/2017/1...ith-jasonbrew/ and got across this:



Few months ago I said the same exact thing here in this thread that our utility is big pulls and Zen Med helm is actually good for that, but I was labeled idiot by every single person here. Everyone said that it's absolutely crappy and unusable because you're losing an extremely important seconds of dps and wasting a legendary slot for nothing when you just can kite mobs around for free.

because 99.9% of players aren't doing the content where tank damage doesn't matter in the face of simply surviving.

[dcc626]

I was reading new interview with supposedly best m+ brewmaster in the world here http://www.peakofserenity.com/2017/1...ith-jasonbrew/ and got across this:



Few months ago I said the same exact thing here in this thread that our utility is big pulls and Zen Med helm is actually good for that, but I was labeled idiot by every single person here. Everyone said that it's absolutely crappy and unusable because you're losing an extremely important seconds of dps and wasting a legendary slot for nothing when you just can kite mobs around for free.

perhaps if you had done things to prove your statement (like he has), people would have agreed. nobody believes anything until someone can show them proof these days.

[Raiz]

Few months ago I said the same exact thing here in this thread that our utility is big pulls and Zen Med helm is actually good for that, but I was labeled idiot by every single person here. Everyone said that it's absolutely crappy and unusable because you're losing an extremely important seconds of dps and wasting a legendary slot for nothing when you just can kite mobs around for free.

Fundamental Observation was my first legendary as a monk. Let me tell you what I think about it. You don't have to agree with my opinion, but you can be sure I've tried using it for a while. It's shit.

If you don't want to use chest or shoulder legendary, then by all mean do so. I know I won't use it until they do something nicer about this crappy legendary. It's pointless to use it. I don't care what the best m+ says. For the vast majority of monks they'll most likely stick to the 2 BiS. You just can't use it EXCEPT for VERY and EXTREMELY niche situations.

Fundamental Observation sucks. Get over it mate.

[dcc626]

Fundamental Observation was my first legendary as a monk. Let me tell you what I think about it. You don't have to agree with my opinion, but you can be sure I've tried using it for a while. It's shit.

If you don't want to use chest or shoulder legendary, then by all mean do so. I know I won't use it until they do something nicer about this crappy legendary. It's pointless to use it. I don't care what the best m+ says. For the vast majority of monks they'll most likely stick to the 2 BiS. You just can't use it EXCEPT for VERY and EXTREMELY niche situations.

Fundamental Observation sucks. Get over it mate.

thats the thing though, its about niche use. i dont think hes talking about it using it in low damage situations or just whatever.

[ReD-EyeD]

thats the thing though, its about niche use. i dont think hes talking about it using it in low damage situations or just whatever.

Isn't it obvious? No sane person would use it in low-level dungeons.

- - - Updated - - -

perhaps if you had done things to prove your statement (like he has), people would have agreed. nobody believes anything until someone can show them proof these days.

Apparently you (not you personally of course) still can call someone an idiot without any counter-argument as well.

[Deleted]

I was labeled idiot by every single person here

Not me, so your statement is false Chill mate.

[ReD-EyeD]

Not me, so your statement is false Chill mate.

Yeah, sorry for collateral damage

[keqe]

I like how you pick a line from the blog without thinking about context at all. The whole blog ends with the "ultimate trick" being that you can just kite mobs to not take unnecessary damage while doing great damage. Which is the better way to handle stuff if it is available course of action.

It is quite obvious from the blog the Zen Med helm is quite niche. The guy has 16 armor sets. Basically a different one for any kind of situation so of course zen med helm is included on one or two for certain situations.

For example the philanthropists at start of Lower Kara. They throw copper coins at you that pierce armor (=magic stagger) that hurt like hell. And if you outrange them they throw them to an other nearby player. So you have to stay around 20y range from them for melee be able to do anything and/or range to not move all the time.

So this is a great place for the helm. You kite with zen med eating coin tosses.

Another possibility is ghosts at start of Upper Kara (especially teeming). The DoT from them hurt so Zen Med is again quite useful. And they too have the same problem of applying the debuff on melee if outranged.


But on pretty much every other scenario it is just better to face tank or kite than to use zen med helm. It has a niche and I bet the guy in the blog knows exactly where it is very useful to have.

It is a powerful defensive legendary where it works. It just doesn't work in that many scenarios.


I have to admit it is funny you use the guy as tool to justify your forum discussions. You should have instead took the great insight from the post that using the legendaries best for each pull is the best way to do things. Not what is "best defensive legendary".

[Geodude07]

I was reading new interview with supposedly best m+ brewmaster in the world here http://www.peakofserenity.com/2017/1...ith-jasonbrew/ and got across this:



Few months ago I said the same exact thing here in this thread that our utility is big pulls and Zen Med helm is actually good for that, but I was labeled idiot by every single person here. Everyone said that it's absolutely crappy and unusable because you're losing an extremely important seconds of dps and wasting a legendary slot for nothing when you just can kite mobs around for free.

Everything will have a place at some point...

But the trouble is most people are talking about an equipment set they can keep and use for almost all content. They aren't pushing the absolute hardest content which requires some insane levels of defense. Even in those situations there is something to be said for a strong offense provided you can survive the encounter. I don't think people were ever insulting you because you said it has uses, I think the issue is your presentation of information.

I won't be bothered to go back and look at all the old posts so I might be missing some details here. But if I recall there were a subset of people saying that damage is worthless and that a tank shouldn't do that and a few other things. I don't know if you were part of that, but I do know people get sick of that sort of thing. No one wants to have people trash their thoughts. I think if you just said "Yeah this has niche uses though" people wouldn't be crazy about it.

Showing some examples is also a good help. Hindsight is 20/20 though, and even with this 'reveal' I don't feel inclined to use Fundamental Observation because I can still just kite and I like doing some extra damage.

[ReD-EyeD]

Everything will have a place at some point...

But the trouble is most people are talking about an equipment set they can keep and use for almost all content. They aren't pushing the absolute hardest content which requires some insane levels of defense. Even in those situations there is something to be said for a strong offense provided you can survive the encounter. I don't think people were ever insulting you because you said it has uses, I think the issue is your presentation of information.

I won't be bothered to go back and look at all the old posts so I might be missing some details here. But if I recall there were a subset of people saying that damage is worthless and that a tank shouldn't do that and a few other things. I don't know if you were part of that, but I do know people get sick of that sort of thing. No one wants to have people trash their thoughts. I think if you just said "Yeah this has niche uses though" people wouldn't be crazy about it.

Showing some examples is also a good help. Hindsight is 20/20 though, and even with this 'reveal' I don't feel inclined to use Fundamental Observation because I can still just kite and I like doing some extra damage.

I agree with you on that. The question was if the legendary is absolutely useless or not and I was advocating against it. Heck, you can even see people still calling it like that even few posts above. Of course it's a niche legendary, but it's very far from being shit. I have used it in a lot of encounters and was very pleased with a result. I'm still one of those old guys that thinks that playing tanks mean being as tanky as possible.

As a retired top hardcore player I'm missing some modern stuff now. May be I'm wrong here and tanking actually is all about damage now. Which is kinda sad to me.

[keqe]

I agree with you on that. The question was if the legendary is absolutely useless or not and I was advocating against it. Heck, you can even see people still calling it like that even few posts above. Of course it's a niche legendary, but it's very far from being shit. I have used it in a lot of encounters and was very pleased with a result. I'm still one of those old guys that thinks that playing tanks mean being as tanky as possible.

As a retired top hardcore player I'm missing some modern stuff now. May be I'm wrong here and tanking actually is all about damage now. Which is kinda sad to me.

Well you are quoting m+ player. M+ is all about speed/pace so of course DPS is the most important aspect of it. The whole point the guy makes is that use shoulders if you can. To maximize DPS so you just survive.

The "modern" way is much more interesting as you try to maximize output while still trying to stay alive. And with more DPS oriented gearing the staying alive part takes more skill. Which in my opinion is a good thing.

Rather have that than the "old" days of focusing on survival and just standing next to a boss spamming sunder armor while stats do the tanking.

[ReD-EyeD]

Well you are quoting m+ player. M+ is all about speed/pace so of course DPS is the most important aspect of it. The whole point the guy makes is that use shoulders if you can. To maximize DPS so you just survive.

I literally said before that this legendary is not bad for dps because you can group mobs around you thus increasing the dps of the party more than when you're dpsing yourself while kiting them. I wasn't talking about sunder stacking tho, so please stop twisting my words as you want every time.

[keqe]

I literally said before that this legendary is not bad for dps because you can group mobs around you thus increasing the dps of the party more than when you're dpsing yourself while kiting them. I wasn't talking about sunder stacking tho, so please stop twisting my words as you want every time.

Half of your post was about your "top hardcore tanking experience of ye olde days when survival mattered".

And from classic to cata tanking was mostly done by your stats and few CD's. You literally achieved "afk cap" with warrior/pala during Cata which was the major goal.

And nowhere you mentioned how that legendary is a DPS boost for your group in the post before mine. Not to mention how little sense it makes as you can easily kite in a circle so mobs barely move around.

[Tech614]

I'm still one of those old guys that thinks that playing tanks mean being as tanky as possible.

Old as in what? Classic thru cata where you literally reached defense cap and spammed whatever ability did the most threat?

Old WoW didn't have ways to make yourself more tanky, you either had the stats or you didn't. There wasn't any active mitigation and there wasn't any trade offs, if you didn't have defense cap you got crit and died and if you didn't have enough gear you didn't hold threat and your raid died(or severely gimped their dps if they where smart kids watching omen). Hell in LK and Cata even threat didn't matter so you only had the former to worry about.

There wasn't any meaningful tradeoffs to make with tanking at all. That didn't start until MoP tbh, and we'll never see anything like the min maxing of tank dps in MoP ever again.

So lets not talk about being "old" when tanks being able to make meaningful choices has only ever been a thing in modern WoW.

[Raiz]

I literally said before that this legendary is not bad for dps because you can group mobs around you thus increasing the dps of the party more than when you're dpsing yourself while kiting them. I wasn't talking about sunder stacking tho, so please stop twisting my words as you want every time.

It's need a very coordinated group. It needs that you have to use all your defensive CD at the right time and allowing you to barely survive when you're using this legendary. It's just stupid. Only a couple of monks could probably do that. And for what ? For 10 more sec ? Aren't you being a little nitpicky ?

Sure if you were playing a +20 or something and was competing for the next blizz invitational, you'd probably do it. For the 99% majority of the other monks, they probably won't use it. And tbh, I'd rather play safe and kite while doing dps than sit and stay while all the BRH are smashing me down like they could've never ever dreamt off.
Tbh no sane monk would ever do it. We haven't reached a point where the run is perfectly clean. The margin of error for the expected result is extremely thin. You'd rather hope for the other team to do some stupid shit than try to gain 10 sec on this fight.

Whatever, I'm done with this subject.

[ReD-EyeD]

It's need a very coordinated group. It needs that you have to use all your defensive CD at the right time and allowing you to barely survive when you're using this legendary. It's just stupid. Only a couple of monks could probably do that. And for what ? For 10 more sec ? Aren't you being a little nitpicky ?

Sure if you were playing a +20 or something and was competing for the next blizz invitational, you'd probably do it. For the 99% majority of the other monks, they probably won't use it. And tbh, I'd rather play safe and kite while doing dps than sit and stay while all the BRH are smashing me down like they could've never ever dreamt off.
Tbh no sane monk would ever do it. We haven't reached a point where the run is perfectly clean. The margin of error for the expected result is extremely thin. You'd rather hope for the other team to do some stupid shit than try to gain 10 sec on this fight.

Whatever, I'm done with this subject.

I wasn't talking m+ exclusively when I mentioned zen med helm. It's almost mandatory to some specific instagib boss mechanics (when even HT+DiffuseMagic is not enough) and some extreme packs. But yes, this discussion leads nowhere.

[Deleted]

About T21 again, now that it might actually stay this way:

Simming the 4set against T20 pieces of the same ilvl (so normal T21 vs M T20) results in an 8% damage increase on single target for my current gear.
With T21 Special delivery pulls ahead of RJW, as even at relatively low mastery almost all gcds can be filled with BoF. Legendary Chest was replaced by Cinidaria. The new ring will probably be more efficient for DPS, but that is neither here nor there.

Cheese Potential: A cursory glance at the bosses makes me think, that we should be able to solo tank Varimathras with T21 4p, because the tank swap mechanic is just a physical damage taken increase for 7 seconds. So we could just make sure to dodge every hit in that 7 sec window (assuming 35% mastery) and tank through. That you can't be healed during that time doesn't really change anything if you dodge all damage anyway.

If this really remains this way, I think the set seems to be really strong in all situations and free up a legendary slot.