So why did they not changee Titanforging??

[Deleted]

Titanforging's design goal is to keep old content relevant.

So IMO Blizzard should do this:

1. disable Titanforging in the current raid tier (we have Warforging for that purpose: Titanforging works between tiers while Warforging works within a tier)
2. adjust the upper Titanforging limit and range based on previous tiers' item levels.

For example: If the latest tier has normal gear with an item level of 100 then each item of a previous raid tier can titanforge up to 95 (or some other number < 100) even if its base item level would be 10 (perhaps trinkets should be excluded from this rule).

[Accendor]

The announcement, that no core changes are coming to the idea of Titanforging is baffling me right now. Can't Blizzard see the problems it is creating? Why aren't they atleast trying to fix it just a little a bit?


Me and a friend have used the last 2 days just talking about the problems we have encountred with TF, all from feeling no need to go into raiding when you have raiding quality gear from WQs and Argurite to having an entire raiding guild go on holiday after a normal Kil'jaeden kill because everybody did not want to do heroic mostly because their gear was already heroic difficulty quality.

We can even see alot of possible solutions to this problem, some major and even some so minute that most of the playerbase would not even notice in a bad way...... So why? Are they really so extremly happy with having low difficulty content reward high difficulty loot, that they are going to ignore the problems it brings?

They are not chaning it, because it is a good and working system. You and some vocal minority may not like it, but this does not change the fact that from the data they have collected it seems to be a good system.

Another important factor is that they probably will remove the current legendary system (as they already said the current system will not carry over). This means that if there is also no TF anymore very soon after the start of the expansion there will be no reason anymore for raiders to do:
- World Quests (Just Argonite is not enough)
- M+ (except if there will be something like the +10 reward, but also then only one instance per week)
- Raid difficulties below your current one
- Older raids of the expansion

For you that might sound awesome because "you do not have to" do it anymore, for many others however it will be "I do not have anything to do anymore" and that is something that Blizzard does not like. Personally I agree with them here.
Putting a Cap on TF would for essentially be the same removing it completely, because it will still not give players a reason to do something outside of the most rewarding content.

[david0925]

Yep, when I raided in TBC during the year long BT, we did full BT clears just for like what, 3 items? Healer trinket and warglaives, both off Illidan. And this is the ONLY demographic that should be upset about TF: people that like having BiS in every slot so that their character is "done" for the patch cycle. For everything else it's a boost.

If at any point, your raider gives the vibe "i don't want to raid because solo gives better reward", you should replace him because he's in it for the loot only anyway and is most likely just a detrimental factor in your raid that is made more visible.

[Accendor]

Titanforging's design goal is to keep old content relevant.

So IMO Blizzard should do this:

1. disable Titanforging in the current raid tier (we have Warforging for that purpose: Titanforging works between tiers while Warforging works within a tier)
2. adjust the upper Titanforging limit and range based on previous tiers' item levels.

For example: If the latest tier has normal gear with an item level of 100 then each item of a previous raid tier can titanforge up to 95 (or some other number < 100) even if its base item level would be 10 (perhaps trinkets should be excluded from this rule).

If they would do that I would never do older content because the itemlevel would be lowever than the current tier. You even realized what their goal is but your idea does not help do accomplish said goal.

[Alvito]

do you by chance have a source for the empowered slots only being head, shoulder, and chest? Seems low to me, or they're going to add legs and gloves over patches 8.2 and 8.3 prob

Head, shoulders and chest is what they kept saying over and over at Blizzcon and in all interviews since. There is no reason for them to add to or alter being set at those 3.

[Poshadin]

I do like the TF/WF system but I think it needs a cap.

I'd prefer like 15-20 ilvl cap, maybe 30 tops. I get the idea behind it and I do enjoy it, it gives a little motivation when clearing all the farm bosses when you've already got what you needed. However, I don't like the "well maybe I should go clear normal/LFR as a mythic raider, it CAN TF to the point I'd use it."

End of the day though, it doesn't matter much. So some random LFR Warrior just got 950 Moonglaives, good for him it doesn't hurt me any.


And as for the argunite stuff, it's a catch up mechanic for the next tier, not this one. Which is why it seems so powerful. They released it ahead of Antorus to ensure anyone that wants to raid with it can. Once Antorus is out and 930 is the new "normal" easy access to 910's won't seem that big of a deal.

[Sylvestra]

They are not chaning it, because it is a good and working system. You and some vocal minority may not like it, but this does not change the fact that from the data they have collected it seems to be a good system.

Another important factor is that they probably will remove the current legendary system (as they already said the current system will not carry over). This means that if there is also no TF anymore very soon after the start of the expansion there will be no reason anymore for raiders to do:
- World Quests (Just Argonite is not enough)
- M+ (except if there will be something like the +10 reward, but also then only one instance per week)
- Raid difficulties below your current one
- Older raids of the expansion

For you that might sound awesome because "you do not have to" do it anymore, for many others however it will be "I do not have anything to do anymore" and that is something that Blizzard does not like. Personally I agree with them here.
Putting a Cap on TF would for essentially be the same removing it completely, because it will still not give players a reason to do something outside of the most rewarding content.

Just because you love the rng system doesn't mean those that don't are a "vocal minority". There is a large part of the player base that doesn't like it. It also doesn't keep people playing, that might be the goal but it has failed completely. I'm not gonna keep playing to pray for a 5 ilvl upgrade.

[shaunika123]

Downside of expansion is weapons are back to normal drops, so farming titanforged weapons (especially for classes that heavily depend on weapons) will be even more a thing than farming titanforged trinkets is today.

getting one TF weapon will be a lot easier than getting 3 TF relics, WITH the right traits and the right crucible.


also, if you only raid for gear, why are you raiding at all? the whole point of gear, is to enable you to beat the next challenge, it's a means to an end not the end itself.

[Accendor]

Just because you love the rng system doesn't mean those that don't are a "vocal minority". There is a large part of the player base that doesn't like it. It also doesn't keep people playing, that might be the goal but it has failed completely. I'm not gonna keep playing to pray for a 5 ilvl upgrade.

The point is: If the larger part of the player base would not like it, they would have some form of data about that and change it. In this case there is no reason to displease the majority. It's the same with flying.

Edit: Just to be clear: I am a mythic raider that only has 7/9 at the moment, but from the second I started doing Mythic it was clear do me that I would only get 2 regular upgrades until KJ. Yes, that felt a bit strange in the beginning, but I got used to it.

[Starry Sidekick]

They will change it a bit:

1. 3 slots that are empowered by necklace cannot warforge/titanforge: head, shoulder, chest. Those are tier pieces slots, so farming old tier becomes rather pointless.

2. They are looking at reducing warforge/titanforge procs.

Downside of expansion is weapons are back to normal drops, so farming titanforged weapons (especially for classes that heavily depend on weapons) will be even more a thing than farming titanforged trinkets is today.

I actually didn't even think of that first one. That's pretty smart on blizz's part.

[HuxNeva]

h
I think the entire idea about "do any content and have a chance of getting a gear upgrade no matter what" is the same as the "bring thetplayer, not the class" idea. Sure it sounds nice as an idea, but in practice it brings a horrible imbalance to the game.

Because why use time, energy and stress to kill the dragon, when you can get the dragon's treasure by just farming the orcs outside its keep for a couple of days. Why go into raiding when you can get raiding gear from doing outworld content? Why do heroic progression when you can just stay in normal farming and get heroic gear with time?

A game like WoW needs incentive for doing hard and time consuming content. With current TF, that incentive is in danger. Just like you said, if the reward is not there, the content might aswell be dead. Well if you do hard content and the reward is more often then not denied you, then you really wish that you had not done that content.

- - - Updated - - -



Doing the WQs on Argus for Argunite takes less then 40 min to do everyday or every other day. Even some of the most time-casual people do it.

Argus didn't exist when ToS was prime current content. If you're going to outgear on hoping 880 TF's to 915+, good luck. A swift look at WowProgress and a grasp of probability should have quenched your fears.

[david0925]

Argus didn't exist when ToS was prime current content. If you're going to outgear on hoping 880 TF's to 915+, good luck. A swift look at WowProgress and a grasp of probability should have quenched your fears.

when has posts about hating TF/WF EVER been about data?

the only reason I personally don't like it is that I like having BiS done every tier and I don't want scrubs that are not as progressed as I am have better loot in ANY slot. That's a -me- problem, not a system problem.

[Miyagie]

Doing the WQs on Argus for Argunite takes less then 40 min to do everyday or every other day. Even some of the most time-casual people do it.

Yes the WQ goes fast but thats not enough to outgear hc gear atm, you need to farm alot chests and rare mobs to get enough argunite.
Oh and dont forget luck for TF gear.

[Flurryfang]

Because it's actually a great system and your complaints against it are not valid



I raid because I like to raid. If that's not enough reason for you, then you shouldn't be raiding. If TF means that people who have no joy for raiding and only do it for the gear CBA to keep raiding, that's a good thing.



Firstly your premise is broken. On average, from an equal number of boss kills in heroic, you'll land up with gear that is just shy of 15 ilevels higher than what you got from those same boss kills in Normal. So the idea that you won't improve your gear from going to heroic is silly.

Secondly, what this is telling me is that your entire raiding guild doesn't really care enough about heroic raiding to bother with it.



Because the "problems" that the critics of the feature keep raising are actually non-problems, as I have just shown you with your examples.

For me TF is a problem and so it is for some of people i talk with. By that mere fact, i would say it is valid complaint.

See it is easy to say, that you should only raid because you want to raid, but why do you like to raid? For me, it is to see the content, but also because i like getting progression in my character. If the story was gone from a raid, i would not do the content. Just the same with the progression reward. I don't raid anymore because the progression reward is gone and i don't like that. I would love to see it come back, so i can enjoy raiding again.
Nobody in this game raids just because they want to do raiding. We each do it because of many different factors, like the people we are around, the challenge, the gear, the story, the music, the encounters or something else. I bet that you would not be raiding either if some aspects of the system was removed.


Firstly:The problem with that statement is, that it only works if i do heroic raiding just as much as i do WQs and normal raiding. I have done a shitload of WQs and i have done alot of normal raiding, but that is because it has matched my skill level and my comitment level. But now i want to go into heroic raiding, i want to increase my comitment, but because i have done all these WQs and alot of normal, the reward for going that extra mile into heroic is now gone. Sure i might have higher chance of loot upgrades in there, but overall when an item drop for me, it will be worse then what i have because i have already done alot of content, that allowed me to get that gear at a chance. So unless i am extra lucky with not only gear drop, but also its warforged/titanforge, the loot reward is not gone. So yeah, a person who does heroic 5 hours a week is gonna get better gear then a person who does normal 5 hours a week, but the problem arrives when the person who have done normal 5 hours a week now want to do heroic after 3 months.

2nd: I have been in about 10 raiding guilds in my entire life. All these guilds have had a good mix of players with each their own reason to play. The main thing that have kept them together is the hunt for loot. It is a global "wanting" for most players, to get loot, and this is also why most of these guilds worked. Remove that aspect and you suddenly have a playergroup, who dispite loving raiding and their own special neice within raiding, find it harder and harder to justify doing the content. As said before, most people don't only raid for the gear, but it helps them see a reward in doing the content and it is pretty much why we all do it. Remove the gear from raiding all together by tomorrow and you will easily see that very few players only raid because it is just fun to do so.


In the end, you are setting it up as a non-problem and yet i have shown you just why they are problems. Blizzard have set up a system quite nicely, that have worked for many years. You start out leveling up, you then go into dungeons, you go into harder dungeons and if you want better gear you go into raiding. If you want even better gear, you can go into even harder raiding and if you want even more, you can go into the hardest raiding.

Nowadays, if you want better gear, you really have differnet choice, which would normally be good if they did not require very different lvls of engagement, time investment and community interaction. Most people will take the easiest way possible when given the chance and it seems like people are finding out, that by just doing your daily WQs and a few dungeons, you can get your weekly buss from getting better gear. Because of this, fewer and fewer people find a push to go into raiding and community based content.

Is it bad, that this is happening? Not really, as the players are just doing what they prefer. But as a person who values raiding and want to do it, i really wished Blizzard did a better job of making incentives for raiding. If they don't want to do that, i would just wish they said it openly, so that i could look elsewhere for a game with a working gear system.

[Deleted]

Also: remember that before there was quest gear to TF, there were many similar systems: badges, marks, valor, pvp items/bosses etc. Which were sidegrades or catchup items to normal raiding. Similar to argunite gear with TF. I don't see anyone getting mythic-level gear with just quests. And if they do it would mean they farmed so diligently that they've earned it for sheer patience ;D

[Sylvestra]

[QUOTE=Accendor;47961965]The point is: If the larger part of the player base would not like it, they would have some form of data about that and change it. In this case there is no reason to displease the majority. It's the same with flying.[/QUOTE

I was never asked by Blizzard if I like the system so there's a gap in the data already. And flying is a horrible example, the community was 50/50 on that... They just made their own decision.

Silence does not mean approval.

[Accendor]

[QUOTE=Sylvestra;47962059]

The point is: If the larger part of the player base would not like it, they would have some form of data about that and change it. In this case there is no reason to displease the majority. It's the same with flying.[/QUOTE

I was never asked by Blizzard if I like the system so there's a gap in the data already. And flying is a horrible example, the community was 50/50 on that... They just made their own decision.

Silence does not mean approval.

But participating in content does and they have that data. They do not need to ask you and make a vote, they can simply check participating in different content and make statistics with that.

[Raelbo]

It also doesn't keep people playing, that might be the goal but it has failed completely. I'm not gonna keep playing to pray for a 5 ilvl upgrade.

The bolded part tells me that you fail to understand the intent of the system. It's not there to keep people playing. It's there to enhance the experience of those who are still playing.

Playing in the hopes of getting a 5 ilvl upgrade is, no offence, a daft reason to keep playing. You play for other reasons, but continuing to progress your character makes the experience more rewarding and helps you to achieve whatever your objectives are.

[Flurryfang]

They are not chaning it, because it is a good and working system. You and some vocal minority may not like it, but this does not change the fact that from the data they have collected it seems to be a good system.

Another important factor is that they probably will remove the current legendary system (as they already said the current system will not carry over). This means that if there is also no TF anymore very soon after the start of the expansion there will be no reason anymore for raiders to do:
- World Quests (Just Argonite is not enough)
- M+ (except if there will be something like the +10 reward, but also then only one instance per week)
- Raid difficulties below your current one
- Older raids of the expansion

For you that might sound awesome because "you do not have to" do it anymore, for many others however it will be "I do not have anything to do anymore" and that is something that Blizzard does not like. Personally I agree with them here.
Putting a Cap on TF would for essentially be the same removing it completely, because it will still not give players a reason to do something outside of the most rewarding content.

I am very much aware, that this is not something which have a negative impact on the majority of the playerbase, but i will also point out that for the part of the playerbase it affects, it is devastating. It punishes you for doing content outside of raiding, as it actively removes the rewards you would normally get from defeating hard content together with your raid. Progressing on a boss for 4 weeks only for th gear that boss dropped to be totally disenchanted, because it is worse then already worn gear is one of the worst experiences i have ever had in raiding. People totally lose the will to do progression anymore.

I think that the solution is really to not have gear be the reward for everything. I agree, that if you remove TF completly or put too soft a cap on it, people won't find any need to do content like WQ or mythics anymore, but that does not have to be a problem if you just give it a different kind of rewards. It is only in Legion, that Titanforged was introduced and beforehand Blizzard found other ways to make players do openworld content and lower difficulty dungeons. I think that BFA form of AP could easily fill that spot, making it rewarding to do non-raiding content for raiders without having to drop in raiding gear rewards once in a while.

All in all, i see the gain, that alot of people are getting from TF, but i am merely trying to point out, that some people are being thrown under the bus completly just so other players can a small gear boost once in a while. I think that you could easily safe these people from the trouble they are feeling, while also making sure, that non-raiders are getting a gear reward once in a while. I am merely asking for moderation in what they are doing.

[Deleted]

They will change it a bit:

1. 3 slots that are empowered by necklace cannot warforge/titanforge: head, shoulder, chest. Those are tier pieces slots, so farming old tier becomes rather pointless.

2. They are looking at reducing warforge/titanforge procs.

Downside of expansion is weapons are back to normal drops, so farming titanforged weapons (especially for classes that heavily depend on weapons) will be even more a thing than farming titanforged trinkets is today.

will be miles better then trying to get relic upgrade let alone 3, in past it was 1 weapon or 2 if you dualweiled which could for most classes aslo be used for all your other specs, in legion you need 9 relics(basicly 9weapons) 3 per spec, witha trait and not just ilvl, and good crucible rolls. going back to normal weapons will reduce the rng to get weapon upgrade.