The "I want vanilla, but" crowd

[AzazeltheRuthless]

Wildstar had all of those things that "Vanilla" players crave: Long attunements. Unforgiving level grinds. Long quest chains. Group Quests. No group finder (at start).

And it failed miserably.

Because most people don't want that out of a game anymore because unless they're some kind of incel shut-in, most people who were hardcore playing WoW 15 years ago are in their 30's-40's now and have lives and don't have 24 hours a day to play.

That or some people just prefer WoW to Wildstar. I enjoy all those things, I didn't play Wildstar, because I didn't enjoy the skill shot only system (if you had any type of lag, good luck on hitting anything.) Wildstar had serious issues and that's the reason it failed miserably.

Don't assume that's true at all, Nostralius which was a Vanilla server got peak population of 10-15k per day on the server. A lot of people refused to play there as they didn't like to put the effort in and get their character rolled back, or deleted when Blizzard shutdown the server. You'll see a much different outlook on how many do enjoy that style of game, when Blizzard is fully supporting the community.

[TheFirstOnes]

If it was literally just a classic server, unchanged from what it was in Vanilla, it would be out already. It's not because it isn't.

"It would be out already".

Well, 2 things:

1. They gave away some of their Vanilla are, and are needing it back for the servers.

2. They need to choose whether or not they should release 1.0, and go from there, or 1.12.

[GrieverXIII]

Wildstar had all of those things that "Vanilla" players crave: Long attunements. Unforgiving level grinds. Long quest chains. Group Quests. No group finder (at start).

And it failed miserably.

Because most people don't want that out of a game anymore because unless they're some kind of incel shut-in, most people who were hardcore playing WoW 15 years ago are in their 30's-40's now and have lives and don't have 24 hours a day to play.

Wildstar failed for other reasons too, besides its already a given that Vanilla Server will be a niche thing. I'm part of the demographic you describe and i agree that its unlikely that i'll bother with the Classic server.

But, at the same time, its the whole idea behind the project, to allow people who want to experience or re-experience that gameplay with all of its ups and downs to be able to do so, so the OP's points are valid. If you don't want that experience, play on the live servers.

So vanilla servers should absolutely be true to how it was then. Otherwise, what's the point?

[AzazeltheRuthless]

"It would be out already".

Well, 2 things:

1. They gave away some of their Vanilla are, and are needing it back for the servers.

2. They need to choose whether or not they should release 1.0, and go from there, or 1.12.

They can't release it right away because they have backend systems they have to fix. Their whole infrastructure runs off new databases and the battle.net integration, which Vanilla didn't support at the time. I imagine they are going to work on the stability issues and want it to be smoother than the original launch when the server kept repeatedly crashing. Their are a ton of back end issues they'll need to figure out that will take time.

[Saucerian]

Nothing against people voicing arguments or opinions on changes.

However what I hope everyone realizes is that everyone has different opinions on this and there's no clear consensus. There's no way to give everyone what they want without turning Classic into current retail. Look at that multiple answer poll thread on what people would like changed. A lot of them sit around 30%.

The #1 and #2 answers are "bug and exploit fixes only" and "nothing at all" respectively.

[Morssoe]

This forum would be quite boring if we couldn't have these discussions. I am just trying to figure out why people can be so black and white about different opinions. AoE loot? BfA is for you! Debuff Limit removed? BfA is around the corner mate! Tweaking classes so there won't be the same classes? No mate classic as it should be.

I also voted for a Classic Return, but also vowed with some QoL changes. So why can't bring my opinions to this matter?

You won't understand this project cause it is not aimed for you.

[Deleted]

If it was literally just a classic server, unchanged from what it was in Vanilla, it would be out already. It's not because it isn't.

TL;DR: You're wrong. It takes a lot of time regardless.

Not that simple. It's a HUGE hassle for Blizzard to set up servers that run classic the way it was >10 years ago. You can't just grab a disc, dust it off and install it on a server. WoW uses a LOT of software and the whole world has changed. Even things like how network connections work have been changed over time. Ever tried running a DOS game on your newest PC? Takes some work, believe me.

Just to give you an idea of how much work this will be for Blizzard and why even setting up an unchanged classic server would take a lot of time:
- A team to set up working servers.
- Technicians to maintain the (potentially outdated) hardware.
- Customer support for Classic players.
- Community support for Classic players.
- Decide what should be changed and what shouldn't be changed (bugs, features, graphics, etc.)
- Client cannot have vulnerabilities. (Outdated software like the Classic client are likely very vulnerable in 2017)
- Etc.

And in the meantime all people who work on this cannot spend that time working on their newest expansion.

[GrieverXIII]

If it was literally just a classic server, unchanged from what it was in Vanilla, it would be out already. It's not because it isn't.

You're aware the server infrastructure from back then is completely gone right? They gave away the entire server blades that used to host vanilla years ago to raise money for charity.

WoW's current engine is also drastically modified from back then, they can't just use it the way it is now to rebuild vanilla if they want the experience to be true to how it was then.

It really is as much of a headache for them as they've been saying from the start to pull that off. They aren't "deceiving" people or whatever.

[AzazeltheRuthless]

TL;DR: You're wrong. It takes a lot of time regardless.

Not that simple. It's a HUGE hassle for Blizzard to set up servers that run classic the way it was >10 years ago. You can't just grab a disc, dust it off and install it on a server. WoW uses a LOT of software and the whole world has changed. Even things like how network connections work have been changed over time. Ever tried running a DOS game on your newest PC? Takes some work, believe me.

Just to give you an idea of how much work this will be for Blizzard and why even setting up an unchanged classic server would take a lot of time:
- A team to set up working servers.
- Technicians to maintain the (potentially outdated) hardware.
- Customer support for Classic players.
- Community support for Classic players.
- Decide what should be changed and what shouldn't be changed (bugs, features, graphics, etc.)
- Client cannot have vulnerabilities. (Outdated software like the Classic client are likely very vulnerable in 2017)
- Etc.

And in the meantime all people who work on this cannot spend that time working on their newest expansion.

Blizzard already announced that it will be a separate dedicated team to classic servers. I believe, they are going to integrate it into Battle.net, so there will be massive ground up work on the back end system. I think they want it ready for the 15th anniversary.

- - - Updated - - -

You're aware the server infrastructure from back then is completely gone right? They gave away the entire server blades that used to host vanilla years ago to raise money for charity.

WoW's current engine is also drastically modified from back then, they can't just use it the way it is now to rebuild vanilla if they want the experience to be true to how it was then.

It really is as much of a headache for them as they've been saying from the start to pull that off. They aren't "deceiving" people or whatever.

They gave away server blades for servers they shutdown. One of the blades was from Agmaggan. Most of the servers that were merged together into one server, they sold the blades from those off for charity. He was just telling a joke on the stage, a massive company like Blizzard has source control setup. They still have their entire original code from Vanilla, it's just updating the back end portion of it to work on new servers and systems they have implemented.

[Holian]

Well, earlier in Vanilla you actually had to farm mobs for lvl 60 because many high level quests were added much later. Many people who only played on PS or joined really late in Vanilla, after 1.9, had no problems levelling till 60.

That's where the "myth" is coming from.

I played vanilla from the 2004 beta, there were ALWAYS enough quests, if you knew were to look.
Like i said it wasn't worth it, the travel time was crazy so grinding a few levels here and there was much better, but you never HAD to grind.

[khazmodan]

Terrible, confusing post.

You aim to address the people who want changes to vanilla and fail to address any of the changes that have been seriously debated on the board.

No one wants fucking lfg and no one wants the majority of the other things you mention to be changed.

Chill out and debate the real potential changes such as dual spec and viability of specs.

The problem is that once these developers start making changes they will continue until we have the game so many DON'T want to play now. There is also the possibility that the current developers would want to make it worse just so they can say "hurr durr we told you that you didnt want it".

[Triggered Fridgekin]

Wildstar had all of those things that "Vanilla" players crave: Long attunements. Unforgiving level grinds. Long quest chains. Group Quests. No group finder (at start).

There is a difference between the way Wildstar and Warcraft made attunements though so it's not entirely fair to just lump them together. Warcraft had story-driven, quest-based chains whereas Wildstar was literally a list of random, disconnected events which was one shitty slog after the next until they turfed it.

[Thelyron]

I played vanilla. It was good at the time. But it has, as it was back then, no right to exist in todays gaming landscape.

[Deleted]

TL;DR: You're wrong. It takes a lot of time regardless.

Not that simple. It's a HUGE hassle for Blizzard to set up servers that run classic the way it was >10 years ago. You can't just grab a disc, dust it off and install it on a server. WoW uses a LOT of software and the whole world has changed. Even things like how network connections work have been changed over time. Ever tried running a DOS game on your newest PC? Takes some work, believe me.

Just to give you an idea of how much work this will be for Blizzard and why even setting up an unchanged classic server would take a lot of time:
- A team to set up working servers.
- Technicians to maintain the (potentially outdated) hardware.
- Customer support for Classic players.
- Community support for Classic players.
- Decide what should be changed and what shouldn't be changed (bugs, features, graphics, etc.)
- Client cannot have vulnerabilities. (Outdated software like the Classic client are likely very vulnerable in 2017)
- Etc.

And in the meantime all people who work on this cannot spend that time working on their newest expansion.

Bolded part is exactly what I mean.

[FreaknRhinos]

What a whine thread. No one cares what people want out of the servers. Wish in one hand and shit in the other, see which fills up first. All that matters is what Blizzard releases, and I trust them enough to make it close to how it was.

Some of you need some serious mental health checks.

[Deleted]

Well, earlier in Vanilla you actually had to farm mobs for lvl 60

This simply isn't true.

[scaphism]

This simply isn't true.

yea its not 100% correct but if you were on pvp servers. high level quest areas often were camped so farming a corner of the world was usually the way to go. I remember farming 58-60 in a corner of silithus on my druid because i was getting ganked everywhere else.

[Deleted]

- Vanilla had LFG, it just sucked and no one used it. Did you play Vanilla?

- You never had to grind levels. Never. You'd have to hop around to different zones and even between continents yes, but literally sit there and grind mobs ? You could, but you never had to.

- Unless you were on a PvP server, it really wasn't dangerous to get to a dungeon, just depending on which one it was it would take time. Scarlet Monastery for Alliance walking from Southshore was the most memorable. It just took really long. In fact, it might've been faster to use the WPL FP and suicide into the Horde guards at the entrance to Tirisfal, depends on which graveyard you'd appear in, but yes, taking the spirit res debuff and waiting it out would be faster than walking from Southshore. There were no mobs south-west of Andorhal and you could just hug the edge of the zone after you crossed the river. I never tried it tho, guess I'll have the chance now.

- Being a good player in a good PvE guild did NOT - I repeat - did NOT mean you would look good. Like, at all. Are you serious? You would still look like a mismatched mess. Did you finish your cool looking T2 set? Well TOUGH, now you got T3 shoulders and you look like shit. THIS is why transmog was put in the game.

What a lot of purists need to understand is the difference between what was part of the Vanilla design doc and what was a technical limitation. Just screaming "vuhnilla iz vuhnilla!" at the top of your lungs is stupid. You guys cry about LFG - LFG was in the game ever since 1.3, it was just done badly (technical limitations) so they got rid of it and re-iterated in WotLK.

Now I don't want a LFG system that teleports me to the dungeon, or even one that matchmakes me automatically, but a Premade Group Finder that lets me list my group so I can, you know, actually play the game while forming a group instead of AFKing in cities? Yes please, this does not clash with Vanilla design in any way, and a system similar to this WAS in the game. I find it hilarious most of you die hard purists don't even know about it.

[Jujudrood]

They aren't going to change those things. Video Games are meant to be time sinks. Just because you don't think you'll have the time means others don't. Plus it'll let the younger crowd experience the game you did when you first played it at 16. That's what nostalgia is for, I doubt Blizzard is going to change it much at all. The only thing I think they might do is, is adjust some of the back end so the servers are more stable from back then. They don't want ridiculously long login times, and the server crashes that would happen due to stability problems.

It's possible they don't change things, but again, its about bottom line and if people start leaving and feedback on forums is "waaaah this aspect sucks!" they may eventually buckle and alleviate some things, QoL-wise anyway.
And as far as time sinks go, people today are more conditioned for a constant reward thing, where you put in a little effort, you get to the next stage, the next reward, the next carrot.
Most people on live today would laugh if they were told they would have to put in 200+ hours to level to 60 because over the course of 12 years it's been made so easy.
Experiencing the story as it was is a good sell, but it's a lot like the re-release NES or SNES, novelty factor is huge up front, but it wears off over time.

The other question I have around it is whether or not it comes with your current live sub or if it will require a one-time fee or an additional few bucks a month, because added cost will be a turn-off as well.
I'm really just thinking monetarily, though, and maybe they truly want an authentic experience and don't care how well it does in the books.
I mean, they make money hand over fist anyway, so a passion project wouldn't be too out of the norm, either.

On a side note, if I try to log in on launch day and I am 1264 in queue, I'll cry a little...

[Alienshroom]

- Vanilla had LFG, it just sucked and no one used it. Did you play Vanilla?

- You never had to grind levels. Never. You'd have to hop around to different zones and even between continents yes, but literally sit there and grind mobs ? You could, but you never had to.

- Unless you were on a PvP server, it really wasn't dangerous to get to a dungeon, just depending on which one it was it would take time. Scarlet Monastery for Alliance walking from Southshore was the most memorable. It just took really long. In fact, it might've been faster to use the WPL FP and suicide into the Horde guards at the entrance to Tirisfal, depends on which graveyard you'd appear in, but yes, taking the spirit res debuff and waiting it out would be faster than walking from Southshore. There were no mobs south-west of Andorhal and you could just hug the edge of the zone after you crossed the river. I never tried it tho, guess I'll have the chance now.

- Being a good player in a good PvE guild did NOT - I repeat - did NOT mean you would look good. Like, at all. Are you serious? You would still look like a mismatched mess. Did you finish your cool looking T2 set? Well TOUGH, now you got T3 shoulders and you look like shit. THIS is why transmog was put in the game.

What a lot of purists need to understand is the difference between what was part of the Vanilla design doc and what was a technical limitation. Just screaming "vuhnilla iz vuhnilla!" at the top of your lungs is stupid. You guys cry about LFG - LFG was in the game ever since 1.3, it was just done badly (technical limitations) so they got rid of it and re-iterated in WotLK.

Now I don't want a LFG system that teleports me to the dungeon, or even one that matchmakes me automatically, but a Premade Group Finder that lets me list my group so I can, you know, actually play the game while forming a group instead of AFKing in cities? Yes please, this does not clash with Vanilla design in any way, and a system similar to this WAS in the game. I find it hilarious most of you die hard purists don't even know about it.

Yes LFG sucked and nobody used it, was never part of the vanilla experience. Also many times you go to the zone and find players in general chat to do the dungeon with... what are you even on? Then your going into fashion... yikes, these servers wont ever be for you even with changes kid. Beat it