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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    MMO-Champion isn't, and has never been, indicitive of the entire WoW population as a whole.

    Your premise is flawed.
    Not to mention that a self-selected poll without any randomization isn't even representative for the MMO-champ visitors.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    No.

    You have to accept my poll as it 3x bigger in samples size, than whats required for studies(you can actually conclude whatever information you can get out of this).

    It might not be very on point, true, but give or take few %.
    It's not a sample size issue, it's about who those people represent. You can't ask 100 carpenters how they feel about wood work and say it's representative for the general population.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by lightspark View Post
    Well, kinda... Wouldn't call them retards, but given that people were kb-turning, backpedaling and clicking abilities on WF kills back in the day there's quite a big gap in skill and awareness between hardcore raiders in Legion and Vanilla.
    I literally never experienced anything like that. What kind of a backwards redneck server did you play on?

  4. #84
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    It would be HIGHLY different.

    If you poll 99% republicans and 1% democrats about who the best president was, you can't say 99% of all people prefer Trump to Obama.

    MMO-Champion is not indicitive of the entire WoW population. Period.
    No.

    You have to accept my poll as it 3x bigger in samples size, than whats required for studies(you can actually conclude whatever information you can get out of this).

    It might not be very on point, true, but give or take few %.

    It clearly states, that 83% of MMO-C is old enough to play Vanilla WoW back then(or have played it). Only miniortiy havnt played it.

    My conclussion:
    Vanilla is a bashconcept created by this community. Not a product. Its a "ghost"(folkstory).

  5. #85
    Difficulty in vanilla isn't a matter of skill, it's about resource management, composition, and gear. Knowledge of the current game will do no one any good because the gameplay itself is completely different, it has been since Wrath.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    It clearly states, that 83% of MMO-C is old enough to play Vanilla WoW back then(or have played it).
    Didn't we have few guys there who were playing Vanilla since they're 2 or something? Or was it elsewhere? >_>

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    I cant think of a single mythic boss that allows more mistakes than vanilla bosses. add to that that generally classes are waaay more complex now.
    4H,Loatheb, Thaddius, KT, Gluth, Gothik, Razuvious, Chromaggus, Viscidus and Loatheb to just mention a few quickly.

    But you even think classes are more complex after ability and talent prunes... just rofl.

  8. #88
    Epic! Oakshana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightspark View Post
    It'll take few weeks, but BiS lists will be completely different from what they used to be because our tools are much better now, I'm more than sure that there'll be a lot of quest/dung gear w/ OP equip effects in BiS lists even for Naxx40 raiders.
    Huh? If it's truly tuned the way it was in Vanilla... if everything stats, abilities and talents wise is the same. You do the same damage, have the same health as back then with gear and boss does the same amount of damage... HOW is our toolset any better? It's supposed to be the SAME game.

    People are not going to walk into Naxx 40 and coast it.

    I dont understand why people think that they aren't going to have to do progression from MC on up. That's the way it worked. Unless you were lucky enough to join a guild that had shit on farm, you needed fire resist & dungeon gear to do MC, MC gear to do BWL, BWL & nature resist gear to do AQ, and AQ & frost resist gear to do Naxx. Why do people think this is going to work any differently than the original release of this shit?

    Put it another way, if you can play classic WoW for a month, get geared and just clear Naxx 40 from quests and dungeons, where is the reason for even playing Classic WoW? That notwithstanding... if you can get gear from quests and dungeons that will allow you to raid Naxx 40, as BiS.... HOW IS THIS CLASSIC WOW?

  9. #89
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    I don't have to accept your flawed poll.

    Your poll tells nobody anything. It says of MMO-Champion voters, who are not screened whatsoever and have no reason to tell the truth, 83% of people claim to have played Vanilla.

    It says nothing of the WoW population as a whole.
    Basic math:

    If you have high number consiting of 1.300 voters, saying "Yes, we have played Vanilla"(by 83%), you can conclude that the majority is not very consistent(that was the whole point to the poll).

    BECAUSE:

    You can take the median.

    Science supports this(as the sample size i x3 bigger than required)logical reasoning supports it(if you are not biased).

    Bye.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    You said "First week" and we can safely assume all the raids will release at once since they're all built and finished. So which is it? First week or not first week?

    Keep in mind you have to gear up 40 characters, without bonus rolls, with I think a total of 4 pieces of entirely random loot (Yes, Alliance can see Shaman drops, Horde can see Paladin drops; And admittedly I can't remember if the number of loot pieces ever changed) per boss per week.

    You can't even reasonably expect to have TWO geared enough tanks in the first week.
    really can we safely assume that? because I'm 99% positive raids will be released gradually just like on live, If im wrong and it's dumped all at once then sure, I'm wrong, but that's not what's going to happen.



    Quote Originally Posted by epLe View Post
    4H,Loatheb, Thaddius, KT, Gluth, Gothik, Razuvious, Chromaggus, Viscidus and Loatheb to just mention a few quickly.

    But you even think classes are more complex after ability and talent prunes... just rofl.
    I already explained the "massive" difficulty of handling loatheb and 4h mechanics in another post.

    thaddius is super easy with the 4 side strat.

    gluth will just require you to stack hunters with the basic understanding of how to not run into zombies
    gothik is basically all on the tanks keeping aggro the others just dps shit down.
    razuvious is literally tank and spank aside from the two priests who press 2 buttons in the right order occasionally, the only "hard" part of that fight is that if your MC gets resisted you basically wipe, but that's not a mechanical thing that's just rng.
    chromaggus is just spamming dispels on the raid and standing behind los when the RL tells you to
    viscidus is just getting enough nature res gear, and having enough frostmages to shatter him fast.

    if you honestly think any of those bosses are more mechanically complex than any mythic boss in legion, then i feel sorry for you.


    and if you can name one single spec that has an easier dps rotation now than it did in vanilla, I'll never talk in this thread again.
    Last edited by shaunika123; 2017-11-10 at 04:31 PM.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by epLe View Post
    But you even think classes are more complex after ability and talent prunes... just rofl.
    Class complexity peaked somewhere in Cata/MoP. It most certainly wasn't during vanilla.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Oakshana View Post
    Huh? If it's truly tuned the way it was in Vanilla... if everything stats, abilities and talents wise is the same. You do the same damage, have the same health as back then with gear and boss does the same amount of damage... HOW is our toolset any better? It's supposed to be the SAME game.
    We have better tools for measuring items' worth and better understanding of itemisation.

    Many things were overlooked back in the day, but now we have software that allows going through all items for 40-60 lvl chars w/o any major issues. We can sim millions of variations.

    Something w/ shitty stats, but weird equip effect may end up being OP af if played correctly, whereas back in the day no one would even look at that item.
    Last edited by ls-; 2017-11-10 at 04:32 PM. Reason: I defo need some sleep...

  13. #93
    I can already smell the Thaddius nerf because people seems unable to do maiden properly even today.

    Ah, good old' bugzapper thaddius.

    that or the addon with the arrow gets found somewhere and people still mess up following an arrow..

  14. #94
    A lot of the challenge at least from what I remember in my experience as a lowly prot warrior, was getting enough people with a brain on at the same time, all attuned (depending on what you were doing that night) and actually geared.

    Gearing after the slow leveling process was like, a risk. You could give Johnnyboyxx some sweet blue gloves, then he wouldn't show up for raid or any attunement groups.

    The difficulty wasn't in the raid mechanics themselves imo it was more everything involved leading up to it lol.
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  15. #95
    Epic! Oakshana's Avatar
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    Also... people touting how easy older bosses are now, and how much better players are. Look at this scenario.

    You're well geared, have a fair health pool, you have excellent situational awareness. Now... boss places a debuff on your that negates your health to half. Or... makes it so you cannot be healed, at all and does constant splash damage (nothing you can actually avoid). Or... debuffs your damage output to half. How does any of YOUR skill as a modern raider save you? Hint... it doesn't. And this is why the 10th Anniversary of Molten Core was such a clusterfuck... because people didn't understand that it's more than situational awareness or ability... often it's a gear check. Players that are part of really good heroic and even fair 5/9 mythic guilds are going to have a difficult time with bosses like Ragnaros. Im not saying how awesome vanilla raiding was (i prefer raids now)... I am saying it was VERY different because of how the boss abilities were and the tools you HAD to have to do it.

  16. #96
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Why would they be staggered at all? They all already exist - They were staggered on live because they were still being built and tested.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Bye I guess?

    You're still incorrect. If you want a reasonable poll, the poll needs to be opened and advertised to the public, not to a forum which has a community which all already agrees on many points. Your poll is flawed, therefore it's data is irrelevant.
    Once a clever man said:

    If you show a picture of God to some athiest, they won't accept it anyway in the end.

    Doenst matter if Blizz themself made this poll. If shows the median. And then you can conclude. My conclussion is that people are having some Vanilla movement going on(let it be throu lieing or what not, but its extremely inconsistent).

    Bye again.

  17. #97
    Immortal Zandalarian Paladin's Avatar
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    Oh, believe me, old raids won't be roflstomped. Back then, raids were less about "skill" and more about strategizing, gearing accordingly (fire resistance gear!) and a fair amount of RNG.

    It'll be fun to watch at the very least.
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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    Basic math:

    If you have high number consiting of 1.300 voters, saying "Yes, we have played Vanilla"(by 83%), you can conclude that the majority is not very consistent(that was the whole point to the poll).

    BECAUSE:

    You can take the median.

    Science supports this(as the sample size i x3 bigger than required)logical reasoning supports it(if you are not biased).

    Bye.
    Sorry but whilst your sample is large it's clearly not indicative of the population as a whole. If interested check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_error

    If not carry on.

    edit: I'm not sure you know what median means. Median is the middle value of a range. If you went to a school and sampled 1000 pupils for height you would end up with a median which would be significantly smaller than the population as a whole. Just because it's the median of a large sample doesn't suddenly make it correct.
    Last edited by Wezmon; 2017-11-10 at 04:37 PM.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Why would they be staggered at all? They all already exist - They were staggered on live because they were still being built and tested.
    for, and I'm literally quoting blizzard here, "an authentic vanilla experience"

    putting everything in at once would not only be pointless, it'd also be a shitshow, and not at all what vanilla was like, unless you started vanilla in 1.12


    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post

    If you show a picture of God to some athiest, they won't accept it anyway in the end.

    n.
    wouldnt that metaphor work better the other way around?
    Last edited by shaunika123; 2017-11-10 at 04:39 PM.

  20. #100
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wezmon View Post
    Sorry but whilst your sample is large it's clearly not indicative of the population as a whole. If interested check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_error

    If not carry on.
    Sorry, but when you make a Poll, do you ask the whole worlds population?

    You do ask "Do you like dr. pepper" to some native in Africa?

    MMO-C represents a very important population. And that allows you to take the median(take fcking 30% off, you still have more people who played Vanilla).

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