With todays player knowledge, skill and tech, will raids and dungeons be roflstomped?

[Deleted]

But I do no understand why they fool themselves into thinking the new trees butchered everything when all they did was give you what you already took anyway and gave you more viable choices between activated abilities, cooldowns and passives.

because the new system sucks. you have cookie cutter builds anyway and you end up with less spells because two out of three spells will be cut off from you.

[Deleted]

Nice, we definitely needed yet another thread about this

[ReVnX]

I cant think of a single mythic boss that allows more mistakes than vanilla bosses. add to that that generally classes are waaay more complex now.

Tell that to 4 horsemen

[Queen of Hamsters]

Check what they do on "Blizzlike" servers. I'd link the tracker for guilds and their progress on such servers, but I'd probs get an infraction.

Thinking only 1% of players setting out to raid will see Naxx 40 on a server perpetually stuck on a single patch is a tad silly. Players today are not the players of 2004 that entered the game for the first time with minimal amounts of information on what to get, where to get it, optimization, where to go etc etc with a limited time to operate within before TBC rolled out.

They won't be "roflstomped" seeing how there's the logistics and gear hurdles to overcome, that will serve as a natural gating of the content that players need to sort before attempting the raids. Once the teams start attempting the raids however, they go down fast.

[God Save The King]

Yeah, they'll be pretty roflstomp. I recall a BlizzLike progression server a while back that had Naxx cleared on its first lockout, since they were able to adequately prepare the raid. Same with all the other raids.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I love all the "things are so much harder now, because we are so much more awesome at playing with pixels" nonsense. Yeah, mechanics are as complicated as they are because you have DBM and Bigwigs warning you when things are happening. Trying playing the game without your 20+ hand-holding mods and then see how awesome you are.

I'd like to see you take those "20+ hand-holding mods" and perform better than the very best raiders of this game.
All those addons, tons of practice and tons of preparation, optimization and high-level coordination, and the best teams can still wipe 800 times to 1 fight.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Unfortunately, yes. It wont make raiding or dungeons take any less time on average, but it will mean there is next to no "progression" on bosses.
Its funny seeing people try to justify the difficulty of Classic.
Try as you might, but the MAIN reason raiding is hard is because it takes a while to learn what to do. When you already know exactly what to do, no raid fight will take weeks.

Problem is that raiding is a serious majority of the content in Classic at 60, so if they don't do something to try to make it more difficult then there will be a very muted competitive scene. The way it went on Nost was people would develop competition by trying "speed clears." Look them up, they are interesting in their own right, but essentially validate exactly your worry.

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I'd like to see you take those "20+ hand-holding mods" and perform better than the very best raiders of this game.
All those addons, tons of practice and tons of preparation, optimization and high-level coordination, and the best teams can still wipe 800 times to 1 fight.

Ya people don't seem to understand what competition means in this game. They think that just because they killed it once they are now on the same level as anyone else who has killed it.

If you want to talk about difficulty, you need to also be a top player of your spec, not just a passable raider.
90 percent of the people who kill bosses in Classic or Legion alike get carried but the 10 percent. THAT is the difference between Classic and Legion. In order to kill Mythic KJ first you need to have the entire raid be the 10 percent.
In Classic, all you need is enough gear and a few hours.

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Tell that to 4 horsemen

One fight. Its probably at most as complicated as a middle difficulty boss in Legion. If you have ever done Mistress you wouldn't be combating that claim. The game is objectively more complicated now, and a lot of it is derived from RNG. But a fight like Maiden Mythic will set all that straight. Essentially 2 mechanics happening every 15 seconds. If a SINGLE ONE is handled improperly, every single player will die.

There is nothing like that in Classic.

[God Save The King]

Tell that to 4 horsemen

Outside of the massive number of tanks required, and gearing them for Naxxramas, it's not an overly difficult fight. It was very hard for it's time, but is relatively trivial today. You need to control your marks and swap off your current horsemen when he pops his damage reduction.

[Trend]

if any of the top 10-20 caliber guilds will fuck around in vanilla they'Ll clear MC and BWL on the day it's released. AQ and naxx might hold them back due to insane gearchecks, but nothing else

That's just stupid. Doesn't matter how top 10 you are, your tank is still going to get 1-shot by later bosses in MC sans fire resist gear which you can't have until farming the earlier portions of MC for a bit. I'm guessing that you weren't actually there when it was current and you just think you're better because you're a "modern raider".

[Low Hanging Fruit]

It would be HIGHLY different.

If you poll 99% republicans and 1% democrats about who the best president was, you can't say 99% of all people prefer Trump to Obama.

MMO-Champion is not indicitive of the entire WoW population. Period.

Unless the poll goes your way. Then you have strong evidence. I learned that in flying threads here for years. Flying gets slaughtered in a poll that it doesn't count, bias, doesn't represent the community. It gets even close to going their way its a huge moral victory, the tide is turning, we were right all along.

Reasons reasons reasons... Me! That seems to be how polls are handled here.

[Seramore]

Knowing what to do and actually executing it are entirely different. It's no different than today. Your raids are more than likely not strats you made up. So where did you get them Fatboss? You even know the strat and how many wipes on progression bosses? I'm seeing a bunch of bullshit from a lot posters salty about Vanilla and just want to stir the pot. The OP is right there with the best of them.

I can't believe this post was made in relation to vanilla bosses.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Unfortunately, yes. It wont make raiding or dungeons take any less time on average, but it will mean there is next to no "progression" on bosses.
Its funny seeing people try to justify the difficulty of Classic.
Try as you might, but the MAIN reason raiding is hard is because it takes a while to learn what to do. When you already know exactly what to do, no raid fight will take weeks.

Problem is that raiding is a serious majority of the content in Classic at 60, so if they don't do something to try to make it more difficult then there will be a very muted competitive scene. The way it went on Nost was people would develop competition by trying "speed clears." Look them up, they are interesting in their own right, but essentially validate exactly your worry.

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Ya people don't seem to understand what competition means in this game. They think that just because they killed it once they are now on the same level as anyone else who has killed it.

If you want to talk about difficulty, you need to also be a top player of your spec, not just a passable raider.
90 percent of the people who kill bosses in Classic or Legion alike get carried but the 10 percent. THAT is the difference between Classic and Legion. In order to kill Mythic KJ first you need to have the entire raid be the 10 percent.
In Classic, all you need is enough gear and a few hours.

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One fight. Its probably at most as complicated as a middle difficulty boss in Legion. If you have ever done Mistress you wouldn't be combating that claim. The game is objectively more complicated now, and a lot of it is derived from RNG. But a fight like Maiden Mythic will set all that straight. Essentially 2 mechanics happening every 15 seconds. If a SINGLE ONE is handled improperly, every single player will die.

There is nothing like that in Classic.

100% to all.

Will there be a while for raids to get going due to needing gear and such? Sure, but people entering these servers won't exactly be the subject of a mass lobotomy... They'll have 13 years worth of information, they won't be running around like headless chickens hoping to hit the mark on what to do and where to go.

It's the case on Private servers, there's no reason to believe it'll play out any differently on an official server which tons more people will be eager to play.

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I can't believe this post was made in relation to vanilla bosses.

They get very angry when someone pokes a hole in their illusion of Classic being the epitome of challenging game design.

Ergo why they have to fall back to the "but logistics made it hard!!!"-argument... Seems to me that the logistics part is under control just fine among the Classic enthusiasts, what with their knowledge on the ins and outs of that iteration.

[Trend]

You're remembering something that was never was, then. Vanilla was never hard. Tedious as it could be, but never hard. MC/ZG/AQ20/BWL weren't hard, as long as the tanks, healers, and half the DPS paid attention. AQ40 and Naxx raised the DPS numbers to 3/4, but that's about it. Again, the mechanics were not hard, especially by today's standards. Ulduar was far more complex, and Legion 5-mans were more complex than Molten Core and BWL.

You are defining "hard" very narrowly as just mechanics. Now, in Legion, I could not play all week, show up 5 minutes before my mythic raid and do just fine ... and to me that is not nearly as "hard" as what it took to raid successfully in 2005.

[Deleted]

I don't think so, depending if we start from 1.0.1 or from 1.12.1, but, gearing was a big part in vanilla raids, potions, flasks, foods, etc...where a big big part, also coordinate 40 people, knowing how to tank more than 2 or 3 mobs at the time, resistance, downranking spells...it's a lot of stuff that makes high end raiding not more difficult on mechanics, but in preparation and understanding.

So, no, probably not, maybe...my prediction it's that...probably the first guild that kills onyxia are gonna do it like...in...20/25 tries, and maybe MC are gonna be more hard (cause u need to farm Ony a lot and also the fire resistance gear and the tier 0 in general) and it's going to be probably around...20/30 days to kill ragnaros since the first kill of Lucifron.

[Mustardisbad]

It took 3 days after release for a group to kill KT on a private, true vanilla server.

[Deleted]

When yo counter things like threat and other abilities then no it wont be a roflstomp

Blessing of salvation, enjoy.

[Etoo]

Personally, I hope they just load Wow Beta 1.0, with zero fixes or patches. People want Vanilla? Give them Vanilla.

[Deleted]

Personally, I hope they just load Wow Beta 1.0, with zero fixes or patches. People want Vanilla? Give them Vanilla.

100% agree.

I want 1.0.1 through 1.12.1 in a X time period. That's Vanilla. If we want to play the real game, that's the deal, we need to make them undertand that vanilla was 1.0.1 through 1.12.1

[Xjev]

Today Mythic raiders will roflstomp raids, but the big median average LFR, Normal players will not have an easy time. The mechanics are so different now, how can you trust today's massive number of median players to pause dps few seconds after tank pull or have an active eye on their thread and CC targets.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Today Mythic raiders will roflstomp raids, but the big median average LFR, Normal players will not have an easy time. The mechanics are so different now, how can you trust today's massive number of median players to pause dps few seconds after tank pull or have an active eye on their thread and CC targets.

A major difference: On Live, they get away with being ignorant lazy saps (not saying all are this way) because of the people putting in the fraction needed to see bosses go down. LFR is the "special-proof" difficulty and the only content most people see, be it due to their limitations as players or just that they don't have time.

Compare it to Classic, where 15 people of a raid could be absolute dogshit and carried by the rest, and STILL see the "pinnacle" of raid content go down. 40 people required =/= the raids being so tightly tuned that it required 40 people at their best.