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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Colactic View Post
    Removing flying whilst simultaneously making zones that are a bitch to navigate was the worst thing Blizzard ever did.
    I am pretty anti flying. But this is the #1 reason i advocate for flying. The zone design in the last couple expansions has been garbage.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    No it wasn't..

    Restricting flight after it was implemented, was the worst thing Blizzard ever did.
    this plus not using flight as part of the game play / environment more
    Member: Dragon Flight Alpha Club, Member since 7/20/22

  3. #203
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frylord View Post
    Yes, flying was one of the worst things Blizzard ever done. Like LFD killed realm communities almost over night, flying removed a massive social aspect from the game. I said it at the time, this was a slippery slope but no one listened.

    You can see Blizzard trying to backtrack over their mistake by not allowing people to fly until mid-way through expansions now. Sadly Pandora's box is open and you can't stuff the drooling morons back in the box.
    How does going faster kill the community? Really...I want to know!

  4. #204
    The Patient Tyralis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Restricting flight after it was implemented, was the worst thing Blizzard ever did.
    No it wasn't you ignorant buffoon.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    You do realize that the vehicle system is also what's used for things like the Lightforged Warframe? Any time you pick up an object and your hotbar changes to specific abilities, that's also the vehicle system. Don't think in terms of actual, literal, vehicles. But if you have to, consider the quest during the DK opening levels, where you're riding a dragon and bombing the Scarlet Crusade's fortress and army. That dragon flies exactly how normal flying mounts move.
    It's not that my thinking is wrong. It's that you haven't fully considered the suggestion.
    My whole criticism is that there's nothing interesting about how the mounts move about the world. There's no depth to the mechanics. It's just moving about a 3d space at 280/310% velocity in the forward, left, & right directions. And nothing that you've suggested is even passingly enjoyable.

    Let's say you removed the turn-rate limit of the ToC jousting nonsense. Well, "jousting" in WoW would still be dull. The way you could make jousting enjoyable is if you went something more along the lines of giving horses fairly realistic movement characteristics, and added an aiming mechanic for the lance, and a timed shield block mechanic. And for a dragon's mechanics, for it to be enjoyable, have it fly as you'd expect in "real"life, and spit fire as you'd expect it to work (kinda like a flame thrower attached to an A-10(DCS: DROGON)). Not some half-assed targeting reticule on a mount that flys at a constant 310% movement speed in some x,y,z, direction.

    Mario Kart wouldn't be a fun game (not that I've played it since N64...) if its driving model was just WoW's movement model.

    (I'm not suggesting this is what 'should' happen in WoW, just what would make those individual mechanics actually enjoyable on their own.)

    WoW really isn't fun for its questing/world "content", and I don't see how any "simple" implementation of mechanics for mounts would make it any less joyless. It's fun because of raiding, and other players(used to be fun for dueling... rip WotLK). Even the story is pretty consistently boring in presentation.
    Last edited by Lumicide; 2017-11-10 at 11:43 PM.

  6. #206
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by bugsix View Post
    When you're flying, you just notice the yellow arrow telling you where to go.
    Speak for yourself. If flying blinds you, stay grounded.

    Quote Originally Posted by bugsix View Post
    Why would you want to go kill dragons and get a big axe if not to smash some other players with it?
    You're imaginative, aren't you?

    Quote Originally Posted by bugsix View Post
    I think a huge chunk of the nostalgia people have for vanilla could have been sustained for much longer if flying mounts were never added.
    Indeed, if people never saw what good looks like, they'd be much easier to satisfy with any crap whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by bugsix View Post
    When was the last time you were blown away by something in the game that wasn't forced upon you(with some sort of cinematic)? I'm thinking of stuff like entering blackrock mountain for the first time, going to ungoro crater and seeing your first devilsaur, etc. I had countless experiences like that while on a ground mount and maybe one or two on a flying mount.
    Getting to see Storm Peaks properly. Netherstorm. Jade Forest and VoEB before and after sha hit the fan. Uldum. Proper view of kypari trees.

    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    No it wasn't..

    Restricting flight after it was implemented, was the worst thing Blizzard ever did.
    Here. He corrected it for you.

  7. #207
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Packers01 View Post
    I'm sure its totally a coincidence!
    because there is so many of us, vanilla players, we are LEGION

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumicide View Post
    My whole criticism is that there's nothing interesting about how the mounts move about the world. There's no depth to the mechanics. It's just moving about a 3d space at 280/310% velocity in the forward, left, & right directions. And nothing that you've suggested is even passingly enjoyable.

    Let's say you removed the turn-rate limit of the ToC jousting nonsense. Well, "jousting" in WoW would still be dull. The way you could make jousting enjoyable is if you went something more along the lines of giving horses fairly realistic movement characteristics, and added an aiming mechanic for the lance, and a timed shield block mechanic. And for a dragon's mechanics, for it to be enjoyable, have it fly as you'd expect in "real"life, and spit fire as you'd expect it to work (kinda like a flame thrower attached to an A-10(DCS: DROGON)). Not some half-assed targeting reticule on a mount that flys at a constant 310% movement speed in some x,y,z, direction.

    Mario Kart wouldn't be a fun game (not that I've played it since N64...) if its driving model was just WoW's movement model.

    (I'm not suggesting this is what 'should' happen in WoW, just what would make those individual mechanics actually enjoyable on their own.)

    WoW really isn't fun for its questing/world "content", and I don't see how any "simple" implementation of mechanics for mounts would make it any less joyless. It's fun because of raiding, and other players(used to be fun for dueling... rip WotLK). Even the story is pretty consistently boring in presentation.
    You wanted an example of a simple solution. I gave you simple. It sounds more like you're describing what you personally find unenjoyable with the game instead of what's actually wrong with flying.

    For the record, I don't believe that flying in WoW is a simple problem that can be fixed with a simple solution. I think it will require a complete and total overhaul of the game mechanics for mounts, level design, and monster AI.

    What I find interesting is that supposedly in BfA Blizzard is finally updating monster AI and pathing to be more intelligent. Perhaps we'll see enemies with more ranged attacks, leaps, harpoons, or other ways of engaging flying players. If they're willing to also design open world content that's not just a mostly two-dimensional maze of terrain, and change how mounts work to be a little more realistic(momentum, turn radius, acceleration/deceleration, fatigue bar, whatever), we might be able to have both exploration and gameplay that involves flight.

    However, as long as Hazzicostas is at the wheel, I seriously doubt we'll see anything beyond the same old fixation on flat world design.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiedzemir View Post
    Flying and the arena. 2 worst decisions in WoW. First killed the open world, the second forced developers to balance literally everything around the god damn "competitive" PvP.
    arena had hardly any impact in pvp compared to pve on pvp.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by bugsix View Post
    I've thought this for a while but having leveled up through Pandaria it really hit home with me. There were a few times where I was frustrated and wished I could just fly to an area, but it got me thinking that I would never get that feeling if flying was never in the game in the first place. The game is just so much more engaging if you're looking at it from the ground. When leveling to 90 I had to look where I was going, think about my route to a questing area, figure out the best order to do the quests, etc. Once I hit 90, I just picked up a quest, mounted up, point myself in the right direction, and hit num lock. When you're on a regular mount you notice and appreciate the surroundings. When you're flying, you just notice the yellow arrow telling you where to go.
    Yeah. Blame Blizzard. You do not have use the flying mount. You can still level by travelling on the ground. I still do for some zones because I prefer it that way. it is my choice,.

    Why do people need Blizzard to make the decision for them?

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by hambanner View Post
    Indeed, if people never saw what good looks like, they'd be much easier to satisfy with any crap whatsoever.
    Quote for truth.

    I swear there are people out there who have NEVER played anything other than WoW. There are so many better designs and game mechanics out there, but it's as though the people defending No-Flying haven't ever seen anything besides what Blizzard feeds them. And while it's true that WoW is limited by it's aging game engine, there are LOTS of things that Blizzard could be doing better.

    But apparently it's easier to shovel out simpler world design and tell the super-fans that it's good for them. /disgust

  12. #212
    Where is my chicken! moremana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    No it wasn't..

    Restricting flight after it was implemented, was the worst thing Blizzard ever did.
    This, nothing else needs said!

  13. #213
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hotsforyou View Post
    I am pretty anti flying. But this is the #1 reason i advocate for flying. The zone design in the last couple expansions has been garbage.
    The further the game has progressed, the more cliffs, huge trees and other strange blockades they have implemented into new zones that has made actually playing in the world more annoying. If you look at say Vanilla or TBC and take those zones, the only zone I can think of that actually was making getting from point A to point B difficult was Blades Edge Mountains. You'd pretty much have paths that would take you anywhere.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    You wanted an example of a simple solution. I gave you simple. It sounds more like you're describing what you personally find unenjoyable with the game instead of what's actually wrong with flying. [snip]
    But I never asked for an example of a "simple solution"...

    What's actually wrong with flying as it is in the game: The world is flat*, the atmosphere is just a matte painting. And because of this, when you get above the ground it all falls apart. The game is in no way suited to flight. It just looks silly. So, I'm not a fan of it. It's not the worst thing to happen to WoW, as OP suggested, but it's not a good thing either. It's nothing. Just a camera arbitrarily moving in 3d space faster than a ground mount, and transporting the player character faster than they would on the ground.

    Maybe making flying, itself, interesting mechanically 'would' be a good change. Even with the game otherwise as-is. But, I don't know, it feels like the game would really need an overhaul to see anything so significant.

    I'd love the idea of a complete overhaul, by the way. A ground-up rethinking of the core gameplay, specs, armor, mounts, world, questing, storytelling, engine... everything. Just not what I'm suggesting, as I'm doubtful that it'll happen any time soon (or ever). Though, I'm not sure about player flight even in my ideal of a complete overhaul.

    There are larger issues in the game that are already unlikely enough to change.

    *I don't mean this in regards to the game's lack of verticality, but that it's actually a flat object, whereas it would need to be spherical for flight in an open space.
    Last edited by Lumicide; 2017-11-11 at 10:24 AM.

  15. #215
    Blizzard has already stated they wish they had never added flying to the game, and would remove it if they could. But so many zones were created with the ability to fly, it would be way to much work to change them. Thus we have flying how it is now.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    Blizzard has already stated they wish they had never added flying to the game, and would remove it if they could. But so many zones were created with the ability to fly, it would be way to much work to change them. Thus we have flying how it is now.
    citation needed

  17. #217
    People who hate on LFR must not like raiding at all. Because LFR is the reason they can dump so many resources into raid creation. As for flight, it's fine. Cuts down on some of the tedium once you unlock it.

    Unlocking it is fine, because otherwise they're going to remove it. Time to face that fact and get over it.

  18. #218
    If I had to take a ballpark stab at the worst thing ever introduced in the game it would probably be PvP servers.

    The amount of tears over the years based on "--x-- killed world PvP" has been enough for a biblical flood. And that does not even count things like ganking complaints, unbalanced realm complaints, and unbalanced class complaints.

    And now, we have a WHOLE NEW thing for them to cry about. It really is amazing.
    Last edited by Wingspan; 2017-11-11 at 02:51 AM.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumicide View Post
    But I never asked for an example of a "simple solution"...

    What's actually wrong with flying as it is in the game: The world is flat*, the atmosphere is just a matte painting. And because of this, when you get above the ground it all falls apart. The game is in no way suited to flight. It just looks silly. So, I'm not a fan of it. It's not the worst thing to happen to WoW, as OP suggested, but it's not a good thing either. It's nothing. Just a camera arbitrarily moving in 3d space faster than a ground mount, and transporting the player character faster than they would on the ground.

    Maybe making flying, itself, interesting mechanically 'would' be a good change. Even with the game otherwise as-is. But, I don't know, it feels like the game would really need an overhaul to see anything so significant.

    I'd love the idea of a complete overhaul, by the way. A ground-up rethinking of the core gameplay, specs, armor, mounts, world, questing, storytelling, engine... everything. Just not what I'm suggesting, as I'm doubtful that it'll happen any time soon (or ever). Though, I'm not sure about player flight even in my ideal of a complete overhaul.

    There are larger issues in the game that are already unlikely enough to change.

    *I don't this in regards to the game's lack of verticality, but that it's actually a flat object, whereas it would need to be spherical for flight in an open space.
    We could start by going back to an open world design like we've seen in Icecrown and Stormpeaks, or possibly Deepholme. Better use of vertical space, with more mixture of caves, castles, catacombs, and other indoor areas.

    Add smarter mob AI with the tools to engage flying players via long range debuffs that slow or force players to glide downwards, grapple them into range, or simply blast them from afar. With enough damage to be a credible threat. Dismounting attacks should be a last resort, but still usable considering how many anti-falling tools players have. (Say what you want about how annoying kaliri birds were, they we're an effective deterrent to careless players flying through Skettis)

    Add in some minor changes to flying itself, such as setting its speed to the same as ground mounts, and I firmly believe the game would be in a better place than it is now.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by bugsix View Post
    I've thought this for a while but having leveled up through Pandaria it really hit home with me. There were a few times where I was frustrated and wished I could just fly to an area, but it got me thinking that I would never get that feeling if flying was never in the game in the first place. The game is just so much more engaging if you're looking at it from the ground. When leveling to 90 I had to look where I was going, think about my route to a questing area, figure out the best order to do the quests, etc. Once I hit 90, I just picked up a quest, mounted up, point myself in the right direction, and hit num lock. When you're on a regular mount you notice and appreciate the surroundings. When you're flying, you just notice the yellow arrow telling you where to go.

    I always played on a pvp server in vanilla. I never even though twice about it. Why would you want to go kill dragons and get a big axe if not to smash some other players with it? But when TBC was released I didn't start right away mostly because my raiding guild had broken up when they added paladin gear to the raids(funny how something so seemingly small could break up a guild). So I was a few months late, enough time for most players to hit 70 and get their mounts. When I started questing is was horrid. I was getting ganked left and right. No one really corpse camped me but it didn't matter because I had no way of escaping - I was helpless. The best part of pvp was random encounters out in the world but that was completely taken away with that one change. Leveling became extremely frustrating and I ended up transferring to a pve server to play with a coworker. Now I'm not some cry baby that whined every time I was killed in pvp. Far from it. I went through the gauntlet of STV and BRM in vanilla and loved it. But the addition of flying mounts just made it.....different....not fun at all.

    I think flying mounts are cool and some zones are designed great for them but I just have this overwhelming feeling that adding them was the worst single thing that ever happened to the game. There are plenty of other gripes I have about the game - arenas, the hard separation of pve and pvp(it blows my mind that pvpers complain about being 'forced' to do pve content), cross realm stuff, etc but I thought this was the biggest. I think a huge chunk of the nostalgia people have for vanilla could have been sustained for much longer if flying mounts were never added. When was the last time you were blown away by something in the game that wasn't forced upon you(with some sort of cinematic)? I'm thinking of stuff like entering blackrock mountain for the first time, going to ungoro crater and seeing your first devilsaur, etc. I had countless experiences like that while on a ground mount and maybe one or two on a flying mount.
    If you really feel this way you should either just quit so it no longer bothers you.

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