Mythic plus killed the raiding scene.

[Varitok]

raiding killed itself.

who the fuck wants to grind legendaries to run around and poke a boss in the dick until it's dead? raiding stopped being fun after the first tier of Mists of Pandaria and became a chore.

Thats literally 90% of WoW's content is poking things until they die

[Gandrake]

at least before you didn't need to grind out a participation trophy to do it before

[Marrilaife]

So some of the raiders who said they raid Mythic to be the best, not for the loot...lied? Big surprise.

No idea who claims they raid to be "the best", maybe Method. There are few others who can even contend their spot, like Exorsus. But the other guilds... they will never be "the best" anyway (until Method / Exorsus retires at least), so it's completely delusional to claim every single mythic raider (even in a guild of 2000+ world rank) believes he's "the best". Tons of guilds stepped from world first race because they found out striving to be "the best" is not worth the stress and time commitment being "the best of the best" requires.

Not even mentioning the fact ANY content in the game that doesn't have lucrative rewards attached to it, is met with apathy and low participation. Just look at micro holidays that are there "just for fun". Or at past challenge modes, how many players even bothered with it after they secured their initial reward.

[whyabadi]

Class sets...

[Arenis]

Having Average Joe go through the same raid on 4 different difficulties on all characters is what 'kills' the raiding scene.

Here is the workflow:
- Get <insert one of many alts> to 110
- Do the exact same WQs to get some gear
- Do LFR of <insert current raid>
- Do Normal of <insert current raid>
- Do Heroic of <insert current raid>
- Do Mythic of <insert current raid>
- Done? Pick <insert one of many alts> and do this exact same thing again

Want to do one of the previous raids? You might have some luck with group finder, but the rewards are mostly vanity and everyone is tunnelled in to the current tier.

It's like playing the Call of Duty campaign on 4 difficulties over and over and over.

[Deleted]

Mythic Raiding is superior to mythic + in gearing. If no lockout existed, then people would spam raids > dungeon. It would be a problem if dungeons actually was a better way to gear, then people would have on incentive to raid. I currently like the balance between raiding and mythic+

[Gaidax]

Having Average Joe go through the same raid on 4 different difficulties on all characters is what 'kills' the raiding scene.

Here is the workflow:
- Get <insert one of many alts> to 110
- Do the exact same WQs to get some gear
- Do LFR of <insert current raid>
- Do Normal of <insert current raid>
- Do Heroic of <insert current raid>
- Do Mythic of <insert current raid>
- Done? Pick <insert one of many alts> and do this exact same thing again

There is no cure for dumb, why do all that? It's a personal choice of that average joe to grind out shit multiple times while in reality all you need to do is settle on one difficulty with a guild and then just do some AP WQs in Argus.

I do just that and I'm fine, hax? I personally raid mythic twice a week, do AP only Argus only WQs, 1 Mythic+ dung per week for chest and that's it.

Last couple resets I also did ToS HC, but not because I "have" to, but simply because I had nothing to do at the moment and was like in "yeah why not" mood, not because of some existential need there. I did not do heroic clears in ages, despite us literally murdering it in about an hour or so.

[Aoyi]

I doubt mythic plus had much to do with the decline in raiding, just as every other activity that people try to blame it on. Those who want to raid are raiding. The total number of players has gone down from older times, so the raiding population would have reduced as well. There are still raids going on every hour of every day. Hell, I log on at 6:30 AM eastern sometimes and there are raids up in the group finder. If anything, I think its the constant need to be carried that groups seems to want to join. You don't need to be 930 to clear heroic ToS. Its tuned around 900. Just like how people expect 915 for normal mode. I was clearing it day 1 on my 890 something shaman because it was tuned around 885. I'm glad I don't need to pug because those expectations are ridiculous. People expect you to be 15 item levels above the gear that even drops without titanforging.

[InfiniteCharger]

Mythic+ by itself didn't do it. If they added mythic+ but no titanforging and no legendaries and no artifacts and no AP it would be a totally different thing. You have to look at all these things combined as to what has caused mythic raiding to suffer.

In BfA there wont be the legendary system like Legion. There wont be AP. There wont be titanforging (as it is in legion), so once that comes along we will see how popular mythic+ really is without the massive gear and progression incentive to run them. And in Legion, everything about the game was a gimmick in the sense they went overboard with the idea that everybody should get everything just from playing the game. That mentality is what killed Mythic+ because it removed the exclusivity for certain levels of gear. And again we will see how this works without that same level of incentive with BfA.

[turboether]

When your situation is that there are less people to recruit that aspire to be the best because of the time commitment it takes and then you add systems that make the time commitment monstrously more strenuous than it has been for a decade you can't really expect growth in the scene. It's just another notch on a heavy burden that less and less have the time and patience for.

[Barnesworth]

So let me get this straight...You want to stop people from doing the progression method that they enjoy and force them to do one that you do? Seems legit.

[ID811717]

In BfA there wont be the legendary system like Legion. There wont be AP. There wont be titanforging (as it is in legion), so once that comes along we will see how popular mythic+ really is without the massive gear and progression incentive to run them.

If they manage to separate mythic+ system from raiding, it will also go the other way. The appeal of raiding will suffer.

As someone who enjoys M+ much more than raiding, I wish I can finally forget about tier sets and trinkets from raids, and focus on playing M+ exclusively.

I hope they find a way to separate the gear progression for M+ from gear progression for raiding. Titanforging was the band-aid solution to make M+ viable as an [semi-]alternative to raiding (even if this was not the idea behind introducing titanfoging, it happened to work that way). Substantially nerfing titanforging would force them to find a way to address the gear progression problem (because otherwise people would have to raid mythic for gear to do M+ competitively, which might cause M+ to die; something Blizzard clearly would not want to happen).

[Osmeric]

Having Average Joe go through the same raid on 4 different difficulties on all characters is what 'kills' the raiding scene.

The notion that the "Average Joe" does the raid on all four difficulties is hilariously ridiculous, when so few players step into M raids at all (and likely H or even N).

[Pane]

I stopped Mythic raiding because its too hard to get 20 people that want to raid mythic in a non-competitive environment on my server. Bring back 10 man mythic or merge more servers are the only solutions.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

People just expect to be given the perfect tools to complete the task instead of learning how to make things work. A lot of this does come down to encounter design. But most of it is just being toxic as fuck.

[digichi]

The incentive to raid mythic is soured a bit by m+ titanforging.

Its why i think BfA is doing some things to combat this. If i can't get easy titanforges from my m+ or heroic raids for my head/chest/shoulders, then mythic raiding seems more attractive.

I definitely think they should expand it so that the only things that can titanforge are weps/jewellery/bracers/trinkets. That would make them more spicier and now you'd have balance. (Because if they're not gonna remove titanforging outright, we should atleast limit it.)

You'd want to get in on some higher skill content if you wanted to flaunt it. Just a thought.

[InfiniteCharger]

If they manage to separate mythic+ system from raiding, it will also go the other way. The appeal of raiding will suffer.

As someone who enjoys M+ much more than raiding, I wish I can finally forget about tier sets and trinkets from raids, and focus on playing M+ exclusively.

I hope they find a way to separate the gear progression for M+ from gear progression for raiding. Titanforging was the band-aid solution to make M+ viable as an [semi-]alternative to raiding (even if this was not the idea behind introducing titanfoging, it happened to work that way). Substantially nerfing titanforging would force them to find a way to address the gear progression problem (because otherwise people would have to raid mythic for gear to do M+ competitively, which might cause M+ to die; something Blizzard clearly would not want to happen).

Not necessarily. Mythic+ and other "alternate" forms of content are supposed to provide a challenge outside of raiding for progression. There should be a tier of gear for mythic+ but not necessarily anything that would replace raiding. Either that or the top tiers of mythic+ should be so hard that it wouldn't be something you could easily farm. It should balance out. Neither mythic+ nor mythic dungeons are supposed to be farm mode. They should be very challenging and rewarding for those who really put forward the effort to do them. Removing the gimmicks as incentives to play should just even the playing field. So instead if guilds don't have enough folks on raid night, maybe they do mythic+ instead. It is not "mandatory" and certainly does not stop them from raiding but doesn't remove the incentive either because without all the legion specific gearing systems, the incentive shouldn't be as great. Likewise, folks doing mythic+ should be doing it for the challenge and fun of mythic, not because they want the same gear drops as normal+ raiding.

Heck, I could see mythic+ drops having specific bonuses on gear that are tied to specific mythic+ modifiers to make those encounters easier which would not necessarily benefit folks doing raiding. Similarly raiding gear should also include modifiers that are specific to helping defeat raid bosses. That would keep gear from one not being so useful in the other.

[Gaidax]

Gear provided by M+ is grossly overestimated, you can pray for titanforging all day long - it won't give you tier and pretty much the most powerful trinkets are to be found in raids. Add to this 2 legendary slots and you barely have any upgrades you can get from M+ compared to raiding. I'm not even talking about tier mixes, like in my case. What exactly can I get from M+? Jewelry and boots pretty much if they even titanforge high enough to beat what I have there.

When BfA comes it will be even further true because the 3 pieces that enhance your spec won't be able to warforge and abilities power there will be tied to ilvl, that coupled with tier from raiding will make M+ a sidegrade gear at very best.

[hulkgor]

I would LOVE if they did this - time based is fun - but surely there are other options. Up the challenge and strategy - keep the scaling - remove the timer?

You can just ignore the timer entirely. You'll still get rewards for completion... so what's the problem? Just go do a 30 and spend the day there, timer is irrelevant in that case.

[Toppy]

Raiding should be strictly LFR and normal, with corresponding difficulty. As in, the first fights? Easier, later fights? harder. Last fight? Mythic level. At most, get rid of heroic and tweek normal and mythic accordingly. This system where only 2-3 fights per tier is hard is BS