Official WoW: Classic Forum Drama. Community Managers on CLASS BALANCE debate

[Deleted]

It is just bad design. Not uniqueness, not rock-paper-scissors.

I know this video doesnt help my argument of not wanting any changes but i just had to
There is rock-paper-scissors in Vanilla as this old video shows.
I still want it like it was

[MoanaLisa]

The idea or discussion of "different" is just a huge slap in the face - akin to the discussion of pristine servers.

"Slap in the face" is one of those phrases that is nearly comedic by now. I'm happy enough to see that they're going to recreate something close to a vanilla experience but given a choice I would have taken a pristine server which would have covered the entire game in a heartbeat. That's OK. People can disagree and that's part of what this is all about.

[Sormine]

I'm the OP from the first thread, was a surprise when I logged back in and saw it at 36 pages lol.

NO to changes!

I'd like to know what your feelings are on minor class tuning to at least make some classes feel more welcomed in the raiding scene?

[Flarelaine]

A shit ton of people from reddit are spamming these forums and its obvious they don't have a sub seeing as they post on low level characters. These players are being toxic as fuck and shitting on people for playing Legion. These are the players who will cause the dev's to make the forum Sub only and those players will no longer have a voice.

At which point they will have made their bed and they can lie in it.

It is really just an official confirmation of what can be observed here on MMOC as well: people who have buggered off to pirate servers long ago are being the most toxic. Also they want to shut down debate, like OP's quote mentioned.

[Selah]

Everyone seems to be having a hell of a time defining what a Vanilla experience is.

[Frosteye]

I'd like to know what your feelings are on minor class tuning to at least make some classes feel more welcomed in the raiding scene?

Could have too many consequences in PVP -- besides, each class was competitive in it's own way for End Game Raiding. Although each class was typically shunted into a particular playstyle or role to be effective.

WoW Vanilla had different class design than we have today. Not every class has to be the best at every role they can play. Some classes are better than others at certain things -- and that's OK.

If prot paladins are main-tanking raids in WOW:Classic, it won't really be Vanilla will it now?

No to changes.

[Sormine]

Could have too many consequences in PVP -- besides, each class was competitive in it's own way for End Game Raiding. Although each class was typically shunted into a particular playstyle or role to be effective.

WoW Vanilla had different class design than we have today. Not every class has to be the best at every role they can play. Some classes are better than others at certain things -- and that's OK.

If prot paladins are main-tanking raids in WOW:Classic, it won't really be Vanilla will it now?

No to changes.

But we saw in the first page of this thread that some classes are more saturated than others. Specifically in the case of druids. They can't actually do anything well and are generally regarded as not necessary aside from 1 for having the buff.

I didn't ask that every class would be viable. I asked that they bring up their numbers a bit to not force every hybrid into the healing role in order to come to raid. Again I'm only talking minor number changes.

And PvP interference wouldn't be much of a problem considering the hybrid classes were only ever PvP viable for their burst damage. The simple solution to that is to change something that lies outside of their burst damage (for instance just have flame shock deal more damage for enhancement shaman, seeing as how they just spam frost shock in PvP anyways)

I think if we just made a 5% change to a classes output we wouldn't really be changing the content of the vanilla experience, instead we'd be roudning out the class density.

[Orbusg]

If they just put out classic at 1.12 I'd be fine with that, but if the classic devs said that they want to improve those classes so they're actually decent at their intended roles, I would also be fine with that.
Because enhance shamans shouldn't get shafted so hard for wanting to tank, a role they were specifically designed around.
The hybrid tax argument holds no water when warriors are the best tanks on top of being great at dps too, hell they don't even need to spec into protection to tank, and they're still the best at it!

[Revamp Man]

Except that there is really no reason to bring a druid at all, because their healing is not as good as priest and paladin healing. The only thing they really bring is a b-rez that is predicated on (in the vast majority of situations) someone in your raid screwing up and dying.

There is a reason that, despite there being 9 classes in Vanilla, druids generally fall below 6% of any private server's population. That is HALF the amount you'd expect to see (11%) if classes were reasonable good in their own way.

That is the problem with Vanilla balancing. It is "the classes are unique and are each good in their own way" except that they aren't. There is an entire classes that is just worse at everything it can do, and 2/3 of basically all specs sans warrior are non-viable. There is a reason warriors, rogues and mages make up the vast, vast majority of every private server.

It is just bad design. Not uniqueness, not rock-paper-scissors.



This is called "broken".

only wanted for a rez....did you not play bwl?? 4 druids minimum

pallies were only wanted for buffs and the fact they never ran out of mana past a certain point

technically every class was only wanted for a few specific things much like now and no they dont need to be fixed because vanilla worked without the fix right?? thats why so many ppl have fought for the classic server because they want vanilla in all its old unbalanced glory.

"i wanna play a ret pally" cool you can just remember to wear healing gear and maybe just maybe you get to go in on the bosses last 10% and beat him with your 2 button combo

you can play any spec of any class during farm and do you know why??? because thats how vanilla was tuned you had maybe 20 ppl who werent useless and the others could run around doing whatever they wanted. Re-tuning classes means having to re-tune raids.

[Dergiab]

It looks like the best discussions, as always, are happening here on MMO Champion.

That's funny, though you are right depending on your view of "best discussions". If it's being entertained by delusional BS as discussions, yes this is the perfect forum for that.

[Mustardisbad]

I think people are having a hard time with "as close to that original World of Warcraft experience as possible"

I think class balance should be involved. It was the main complaints players had at the time, it seems like some just don't remember some of the bad things with Vanilla.

For real, some of those specs are pretty much useless, and if they could make them even semi-viable, what harm would that do?

[Hunterwep]

They haven't even done the recruiting, and already trying to mess up the "Authentic Experience"
Blizzard can't get anything right these days. (Yes over ranted I know)

[JCD000]

Except that there is really no reason to bring a druid at all, (snip)

I've seen tons of druids healing in retail and private server raids, also raid leader specifically wanting a druid or 2 at least for some raids. And you're way more likely going to see feral than ret or enh.

Also warriors are popular on that poll but they're slow as fuck to level.

[Zka]

If they don't want to change class balance, why the fuck they ask the community about it? Makes zero sense, just stirring shit.
I for one will be out if anything major changes in balance, QoL or pve difficulty.

[Azadina]

But we saw in the first page of this thread that some classes are more saturated than others. Specifically in the case of druids. They can't actually do anything well and are generally regarded as not necessary aside from 1 for having the buff.

I didn't ask that every class would be viable. I asked that they bring up their numbers a bit to not force every hybrid into the healing role in order to come to raid. Again I'm only talking minor number changes.

And PvP interference wouldn't be much of a problem considering the hybrid classes were only ever PvP viable for their burst damage. The simple solution to that is to change something that lies outside of their burst damage (for instance just have flame shock deal more damage for enhancement shaman, seeing as how they just spam frost shock in PvP anyways)

I think if we just made a 5% change to a classes output we wouldn't really be changing the content of the vanilla experience, instead we'd be roudning out the class density.

You talk of minor number changes, but when the difference between some specs are huge, it won't accomplish anything. And when you start buffing spec X doing 300 dps, into 900 dps, just to be closer to spec Y that does 1000 dps, then the "minor number change" just became 300%. Doesn't sound minor, does it?

[Sormine]

You talk of minor number changes, but when the difference between some specs are huge, it won't accomplish anything. And when you start buffing spec X doing 300 dps, into 900 dps, just to be closer to spec Y that does 1000 dps, then the "minor number change" just became 300%. Doesn't sound minor, does it?

A couple things. First off, I've already clarified that we shouldn't bring them up to be competitive, but enough to make them more appealing. Most hybrids bring other perks to the table, currently their DPS in vanilla doesn't justify bringing them anyways. Number tuning can actively work to remedy this.

Secondly, the number difference isn't anywhere near that severe, the only exception might be for the case of ret paladins. You're taking top performance and comparing it to something average.

[Mendzia]

Any involving in vanilla class balance = Blizzard will not see me on their servers.

[MachoSasquatcho]

Feels appropriate:

[redeyesbl]

Any involving in vanilla class balance = Blizzard will not see me on their servers.

Why so? What do you want to do in vanilla that would be affected if lets say they give prot paladin a taunt and some mana regen? Or if they buffed moonking dps do they would be somewhat competent dps so you can bring them to raids
More specs are viable would that totally ruin your vanilla experience?

[MoanaLisa]

A couple things. First off, I've already clarified that we shouldn't bring them up to be competitive, but enough to make them more appealing.

That might have worked years ago but class comparison metas are now a very real thing and most people seem to be slaves to them. Specs will either be competitive or they won't. If they won't there's no real point in stirring up the dirt by changing them. It's a real question but nibbling at the margins won't be an answer that anyone will like. My feeling is to leave balance alone.