Class Balancing... no thanks

[Swalload]

Seriously, you add nothing of value to this forum. I will laugh when you inevitably end up enjoying Classic.

I will enjoy enjoy classic. I like vanilla, played it recently. Most people don't like it because it's shit. I like shit.
I'm one of the weird people who can see both things in my opinion and how they really are, which are 2 very different things. I can tell that some music is shit even if I like it, because facts and opinions are 2 different things. Vanilla was shit but I like it how it was, I like this kind of shit, that's my tastes and it doesn't mean vanilla is any better because I like it, I can recognize it's many flaws, I'm not blinded by foggy memories like many people around here.

[MasterHamster]

Hunters were always there in raids, at least a few. Someone had to pull.

I have this theory that class representation being more even in old Classic than it'll surely be in WoW: Classic will be partially due to how hard it was to reroll, the lack of information and the knowledge that hey, classes were being changed anyway. It's not like rolling a warlock came with a warning sign that said "You will forever grind soul shards to summon raids, and you'll always perform worse than mages in dps."

If Blizzard declares that there will be no class balance changes at all, not even down the line, then I expect Warr/Mage/Priest/Rogue to eventually constitute at least 75% of characters total. I do not think enough people will be too keen on rolling an underperforming hybrid just because of memories, as they realize they are forever stuck in a Worse-than-Holy-Priest healing mode, or forever a "You're not a Prot Warr" bear druid or prot paladin. Go heal.

I mean what class am I considering with my current knowledge of how vanilla was?
Tanking, I'll go Warrior. THE tank.
Healing, I'll go priest. THE healer.
PvP/Melee dps I'll go rogue or warrior. THE dominant pvp classes.
Ranged I'll go Mage. THE dominant ranged (caster) class.
The Fantastic Four.

Other classes do bring stuff to the table that is valueable, but I do not think people will be too keen to choose classes they know are and will remain gimped.

The more I think about it the more obvious it becomes that Blizzard will eventually be forced to make balance changes because the vast majority on WoW: Classic will make an informed decision based on balance that was inherently broken.

But sadly that'd also open Pandora's box in the process.

[Deleted]

We are not disagreeing, I'm even saying they do ok damage in the end, but I'm saying that the community doesn't see it that way. I have 9 classes at or over 930 ilvl on live right now. And it's significantly easier to find groups on some of them and significantly harder on others, even if I only wanna do a +10, no cutting edge. They are all dps, but somehow, my 932 rogue or 931 warrior and find groups way faster and easier than my 935 hunter. And I would say that the hunter will do more damage than both of them in almost any dungeon. Not even gonna mention 941 shadow priest, because it either takes an hour to find a group or I have to go heal.

On shaman, you are regularly asked if you are ele or enha, because who wants enha? Same story as vanilla.

No that really is apples to oranges. Specs to day Mabie top or bottom of the dps but the difference is far lass then say a vanilla rouge and vanilla ret pala.

Your comparing undertuned classes of today to specs that litteraly wernt intended by the devs to be played but they didn't have the good grace to at least tell us befor we rolled and leveled them.

Ret pala and only judgment and auto attack, that's not a working spec.....

[epLe]

https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/...g_for/dpuampl/

so its saved for future links

"Personally all of us on the community team want no changes at all, and have been joking about oomkins and Retribution Paladins for days. :P"

[Spray]

Yes, everyone had their roles, dps, healer, and tank. Except only 1 class can tank and half the dps aren't taken into raids because they aren't viable. What's the role of those classes? Gather herbs?
Your argument falls on it's face when proper class fantasy that your advocating, means nothing when if a class provides an increased utility to a team, but isn't taken because they can't make up the disparity in damage.

QFT

Furthermore, if "one class - one role" would be their principle, then specializations wouldn't make sense. But Druids got different specializations than Resto, after all.

[Deleted]

I have this theory that class representation being more even in old Classic was, well, partly due to how hard it was to reroll, the lack of information and the knowledge that hey, classes were being changed anyway. It's not like rolling a warlock came with a warning sign that said "You will forever grind soul shards to summon raids, and you'll always perform worse than mages in dps."


If Blizzard declares that there will be no class balance changes at all, not even down the line, then I expect Warr/Mage/Priest/Rogue to eventually constitute at least 75% of characters total. I do not think enough people will be too keen on rolling an underperforming hybrid just because of memories, as they realize they are forever stuck in a Worse-than-Holy-Priest healing mode, or forever a "You're not a Prot Warr" bear druid or prot paladin. Go heal.


The more I think about it the more obvious it becomes that Blizzard will eventually be forced to make balance changes because the vast majority on WoW: Classic will make an informed decision based on balance that was inherently broken.


But sadly that'd also open Pandora's box in the process.

Only reason I kept playing my pala was I couldn't be bothered leveling another class. Didn't have a 2nd char till wotlk and that was my dk

[Spaze]

I have this theory that class representation being more even in old Classic was, well, partly due to how hard it was to reroll, the lack of information and the knowledge that hey, classes were being changed anyway. It's not like rolling a warlock came with a warning sign that said "You will forever grind soul shards to summon raids, and you'll always perform worse than mages in dps."


If Blizzard declares that there will be no class balance changes at all, not even down the line, then I expect Warr/Mage/Priest/Rogue to eventually constitute at least 75% of characters total. I do not think enough people will be too keen on rolling an underperforming hybrid just because of memories, as they realize they are forever stuck in a Worse-than-Holy-Priest healing mode, or forever a "You're not a Prot Warr" bear druid or prot paladin. Go heal.


The more I think about it the more obvious it becomes that Blizzard will eventually be forced to make balance changes because the vast majority on WoW: Classic will make an informed decision based on balance that was inherently broken.


But sadly that'd also open Pandora's box in the process.

Only reason I kept playing my pala was I couldn't be bothered leveling another class. Didn't have a 2nd char till wotlk and that was my dk

Thank you! exactlly what i meant to say

and everyone with a little bit of brain left should see that

[Deleted]

Just like it is for retail WoW. I have seen the reported numbers, and I see no reason to believe your claims to the contrary since you have no possible way to have more information on the numbers.



That's just your speculation based on absolutely zero knowledge. Personally I have no moral issues with private servers, I have no interest them for a whole host of other reasons: the classic client won't run on my system, the servers don't have Blizzard scripting so they are not authentic, systems run by volunteer hackers are probably not very stable, Blizzard shut them down if they become popular, etc. etc.

Blizzard WoW Classic would have none of those issues, so I would absolutely play that if it is a truly authentic experience—most likely for many years.



Makes no difference to me what you believe, I'm just letting you know your view of other people is very much incorrect. You can onto your faulty assumptions all you want.

Your input about vanilla from your 14 year old memories, should not be taken as seriously as others with more recent experience as well.

[Morbownz]

At this rate we may end up with Pristine Classic realms and modern Classic realms.

[Deleted]

"Personally all of us on the community team want no changes at all, and have been joking about oomkins and Retribution Paladins for days. :P"

And they can go fuck them selves if they expect to say any paladins and druids busting there balls to 60 just to sit in a dress and be there jokes. Twats

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Your input about vanilla from your 14 year old memories, should not be taken as seriously as others with more recent experience as well.

You don't have recent experience of vanilla. You have experience of pirate code emulating vanilla on a bosh server. Go spawn ur self a kazzack to kill

[Daffan]

There never was a support role in vanilla. Only players maintaining this fantasy are the one who never played in vanilla.

I played enh shaman back thn, I just was never picked for pretty much anything. Because the spec actually sucked, period. I liked wow a lot, I liked my characer a lot, still was garbage.

Changed a bit in BC with enh and shadow priests being buffbots and mana batteries. Still only worked in raid as you were pretty much useless in dungeon (the joy of never being taken in magister terrasse because "you no cc").

I agree that spec balance shouldn't be a thing if blizzard want classic to taste somewhat vanilla. But enough with this bullshit "hybrid aka support" hybrid never was a thing. Hybrid was a "hey you're classe can do damage and/or healing and/or tanking, but it actually sucks at any of these" thing.

Yup. Shame cuz Shaman is cool but it's TBC when it actually became awesome.

[Knolan]

At this rate we may end up with Pristine Classic realms and modern Classic realms.

Would that be so bad? Personally I believe it is the best solution... play whichever makes you happy.

[Zenfoldor]

????? 47% dont want it. Votes are nearly equal. Its not like 80%-20%. Blizz dont want to get rid off half of the playerbase. They are not stupid enough.

I suspect some throughput increases will make it in for some severe under-performers. Would you be opposed to that?

[Deleted]

A point has gotten me thinking from those who played vanilla I see us anti vanilla players were the ones stuck on crap hybrid classes. I wonder if there's something too this that what we rember is nothing but pain and shit and those pro vanilla were the ones playing the few working classes?

We should have sencus of class played to vanilla opinion see if there's a correlation

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I suspect some throughput increases will make it in for some severe under-performers. Would you be opposed to that?

Giff crusader strike or fuck off

[Morbownz]

Would that be so bad? Personally I believe it is the best solution... play whichever makes you happy.

TBH I was joking, but the more I read about classic, the more I think you might be right.

[Deleted]

And they can go fuck them selves if they expect to say any paladins and druids busting there balls to 60 just to sit in a dress and be there jokes. Twats

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You don't have recent experience of vanilla. You have experience of pirate code emulating vanilla on a bosh server. Go spawn ur self a kazzack to kill

I'm in no way advertising them but that is not what private servers are like.

[Deleted]

I'm in no way advertising them but that is not what private servers are like.

Last one I saw they gave u free t3 and level 60 on char creation so I'm not taking anything from pirates seriously

[RapBreon]

I see no reason we can't balance numbers without making all the classes the same. Hybrid tax aside, an ele shaman should be within 30% damage of a mage, considering they can boost all melee damage in the raid, but they shouldn't do half the numbers on a good day. I don't want to see bosses change, nothing like that, I don't want altered systems, I don't want new talents... I want Vanilla to benefit from 10 more years of balancing, as if TBC + never happened and we are playing the same game. If they don't want to bring Shaman on a raid because they would prefer to have more CC in the group, thats a legit reason to be benched. But performance due to bad numbers tuning isn't a legit reason. Especially because it's automatic, don't take these specs they can't put up numbers.

As for DPS being the sole metric, in Vanilla it was. Boss mechanics were comically easy and rotations consisted of 1 to 2 buttons and dot, maybe, if you were allowed to use it without dropping sunder or some other important debuff.

Now DPS is less the sole mechanic because in Heroic and Mythic you can be one shot out of the raid if you mess up a mechanic. And if you are too concerned on doing mechanics and you drop attack, your DPS suffers greatly. A good player on any class is going to get taken over a mediocre player on the best class. In vanilla you just weren't taken if you weren't one of the xyz classes. Your performance meant little.

In an in an ideal world, I'd have zero problem with a Shaman doing 50% of a mage if all those buffs equated to the missing damage (I'm under the impression they did, or you'd never see Blessadins, etc. in a raid). The issue is lack of healers or willing healers and the fact those hybrid can still bring those buffs without being specced into their DPS specs (something that was alleviated with TBC). So you just made them fill the space in an infinitely more useful manner and brought an actual DPS. If you want to give me TBC design I'm down for that, nay I'd prefer it.

I am definitely going to have to disagree about the last two statements though. You seen some serious feet dragging in most Vanilla raids (I think again, Naxx was an exception, but it appears to be an exception to most Vanilla raid rules) and get away with it. Zero chance that would work in a Legion Mythic guild that has decent progression. Cutting edge guilds stacked Rogues for soaking purposes sure, but if they didn't do insane damage too noway that strat would've pulled through. An argument could also be made that the most recent round of 'class usefulness' (something mostly new to Legion) stemmed from the same mechanics just in different form i.e immunities. So it's not like it's something unique stemming from the uniqueness inherent to that class, but rather X DPS specs have a good immunity cheese.

The point I was making is: The difficulty of the mechanics is somewhat irrelevant as the DPS checks weren't tight, whereas now even with more difficult mechanics, DPS checks are very real (again Naxx was the exception?). If you make those checks relevant, then I'd agree 100%. Whereas now, I'm on the fence.

[Deleted]

Your input about vanilla from your 14 year old memories, should not be taken as seriously as others with more recent experience as well.

Again you're making completely incorrect assumptions about other people. You should really accept that your knowledge is extremely limited. My 14 year old memories are of much older games, which I still play and enjoy greatly on emulators. So that pretty much destroys your point and credibility.

[Knolan]

A point has gotten me thinking from those who played vanilla I see us anti vanilla players were the ones stuck on crap hybrid classes. I wonder if there's something too this that what we rember is nothing but pain and shit and those pro vanilla were the ones playing the few working classes?

We should have sencus of class played to vanilla opinion see if there's a correlation

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Giff crusader strike or fuck off

I actually would like to see the stats as well. I am still waiting to see someone come here and say: "You know what I loved about vanilla? Being the guild Night fall bitch in my enhancement shammy."