Official WoW: Classic Forum Drama. Community Managers on CLASS BALANCE debate

[Deleted]

What is so wrong with the idea of a Support Class? (Hybrid Tax).

I honestly think shadow priests in late Vanilla or in TBC were a good example of this done well, they didn't directly compete on damage but rather provided support in the form of debuffs (Shadow Weaving +15% shadow damage), Healing (VE) and this was expanded upon in TBC with Vampiric Touch returning mana to the party.

I really don't think that the idea of a "Hybrid Tax" was bad, Just that they never went far enough into balancing around it.

With that argument, I think that's fine. I really liked Shadow Priests in TBC raids, and SPriests would get alot of credit and praise in raids from memory. I think Blizzard worry about not enough people playing that type of class, and if it becomes required in raids or not.

[Deleted]

I am not just doing a face desk right now, my face is dragging and rolling around the desk too.

[Swalload]

Great points and I agree. I don't think, and this is just my opinion, that classic is going to blossom without some kind of evolving. It will in the beginning and I am all for it. But it will get old eventually. Then again I could be wrong.

I agree. I think they need to stagger the release of content kind of like how it was back then, maybe not at the same speed because people will go at a different pace now that nothing is new and we know how to kill everything.

[Echocho]

With that argument, I think that's fine. I really liked Shadow Priests in TBC raids, and SPriests would get alot of credit and praise in raids from memory. I think Blizzard worry about not enough people playing that type of class, and if it becomes required in raids or not.

Yeah the TBC shadow priest was a thing of beauty. Vanilla was great too but the mana issues were a tad too much for me personally.

[Morbownz]

I should be able to stick on a shield as a Holy Paladin and off-tank Patchwerk.

[Sormine]

That might have worked years ago but class comparison metas are now a very real thing and most people seem to be slaves to them. Specs will either be competitive or they won't. If they won't there's no real point in stirring up the dirt by changing them. It's a real question but nibbling at the margins won't be an answer that anyone will like. My feeling is to leave balance alone.

Yes people are slaves to them, which is why changing them in a PvE only sense should be considered. Again keeping in mind that those hybrid classes brought buffs to the raid as well, increasing their DPS would add incentive for them to be brought to raid.

I don't see how anyone could realistically complain about number changes in a PvE setting if the gameplay remains the same.

[Storfan]

Except that there is really no reason to bring a druid at all, because their healing is not as good as priest and paladin healing. The only thing they really bring is a b-rez that is predicated on (in the vast majority of situations) someone in your raid screwing up and dying.

There is a reason that, despite there being 9 classes in Vanilla, druids generally fall below 6% of any private server's population. That is HALF the amount you'd expect to see (11%) if classes were reasonable good in their own way.

That is the problem with Vanilla balancing. It is "the classes are unique and are each good in their own way" except that they aren't. There is an entire classes that is just worse at everything it can do, and 2/3 of basically all specs sans warrior are non-viable. There is a reason warriors, rogues and mages make up the vast, vast majority of every private server.

It is just bad design. Not uniqueness, not rock-paper-scissors.



This is called "broken".

1-2 druids is pretty much the sweetspot anyways. 1-2 Brez, 1-2 innervates and enough to keep 2 tanks hotted. Also the nice part about being druid, you never have to res people after a wipe.

[Thimagryn]

What is so wrong with the idea of a Support Class? (Hybrid Tax).

I honestly think shadow priests in late Vanilla or in TBC were a good example of this done well, they didn't directly compete on damage but rather provided support in the form of debuffs (Shadow Weaving +15% shadow damage), Healing (VE) and this was expanded upon in TBC with Vampiric Touch returning mana to the party.

I really don't think that the idea of a "Hybrid Tax" was bad, Just that they never went far enough into balancing around it.

I wouldn't mind if it weren't for the fact that the hybrid tax was so defined that there was no reason to be a Druid or a Paladin other than to provide buffs to the raid. There is no compelling gameplay behind it other than 'Make sure you keep Blessings up' or 'Make sure you innervate the Priests'.

That was the gameplay and I wouldn't suggest to change that for people who want it. The reality though is who really wants to play as the support class? They're among the least-played and in highest demand, and I think it's mostly in part to the shitty roles they were given considering they can't perform any one task well. It's not like a Resto Druid's Feral stats would ever come into play in a raid to help off-tank, and they lack AoE heals to really benefit the raid. That's why they end up being innervate-bots.

[nmarg85]

Fuck that. I voted for druid and I'll play druid. I'll still gank like a mofo and I don't need some normalized cata-"balancing" so just that people have an easier time rerolling alts. It's more fun being the druid than a druid anyway.

Gank as a druid? Did you even play vanilla? This is "ganking" as a druid, if you can call that shit ganking. More like plead the enemy to stay and fight you while you bore him to death.

[Kithelle]

Again, you just don't get it. "you don't want vanilla" is not a conversation, a simple one liner plebs use when they have nothing to add to the conversation.

Sorry it's the truth...you obviously don't want vanilla if you want changes that obviously alter the vanilla experience.

Either a troll who is trying to make vanilla players look bad or you don't want vanilla and just don't want live...so you're trying to get changes from live to be made on vanilla.

[Tulis]

Chill. So far all this is just talk in the wind. Blizzard obviously wants to see which way it blows before they commit themselves.

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How would me playing a ret paladin affect your experience?

because it's not classic. I like the hybrid tax, i feel that in exchange for you being able to tank/heal/dps then your dps shouldnt be the same as a pure dps class who doesn't have the luxury of being able to heal themselves and buff people to pretty much help out the whole raid. therefore if i decide to be a rogue and you are in my raid doing the same dps as me why wouldnt I just just be a paladin, that way I can heal myself, protect myself and do crazy dps. to do what you want to do would require restructuring every class. the reason why hybrid classes can't keep up on dps isn't just tweaking a few numbers. Their spells/abilities cause them to run out of mana way faster and therefore can't go a whole fight unless it's like 1 minute long. fixing that would change everything and be would pretty much just be headed in the direction of retail. you can play ret, you will just have to accept lower dps, thats the bottom line. you get tons of utilities that allow you to help others do more dps. you are a support class, thats what makes you unique, why is that so bad? if you want to play retail why not just play retail? why do you want to play classic if you just want it to be like retail?

[moremana]

Sorry it's the truth...you obviously don't want vanilla if you want changes that obviously alter the vanilla experience.

Either a troll who is trying to make vanilla players look bad or you don't want vanilla and just don't want live...so you're trying to get changes from live to be made on vanilla.

Again your quoting me as saying I want changes. I never said I did, so try again.

I said "Balance should be taken into consideration", that means heals and dps balance on a level ground, not giving everyone the same spells.

Comprehension, try it, you will find you get along with others better.

[jackofwind]

Again your quoting me as saying I want changes. I never said I did, so try again.

I said "Balance should be taken into consideration", that means heals and dps balance on a level ground, not giving everyone the same spells.

Comprehension, try it, you will find you get along with others better.

Homogenisation isn't the Classic experience.

[moremana]

Homogenisation isn't the Classic experience.

You do realize its not going to be the True "Vanilla" experience.

[jackofwind]

You do realize its not going to be the True "Vanilla" experience.

Not a valid reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

There is no logical point in releasing a Classic server that does not mimic as closely as possible the game mechanics of Classic. If you asked for a copy of Smash Bros 64 you wouldn't expect to receive one where the characters were updated and balanced to be more equal.

Might as well just release WoW 2.0 with 60 as the level cap and every class available and call it "Classic".

[RapBreon]

Gank as a druid? Did you even play vanilla? This is "ganking" as a druid, if you can call that shit ganking. More like plead the enemy to stay and fight you while you bore him to death.

Eh, that looks fun? Entirely different way to approach PvP other than 'do rotation and one shot'. I mean epic drawn out world PvP battles/duels are something I remember most fondly (as a hybrid myself). Look at that sick two man kite tactic while they deal with the mage. Not fun for the guy being kited but ha still hilarious. The experience definitely has its own charm.

These days I literally kill people in 2 seconds or less in the open world if they want to pick a fight...unless they're a tank then they kill me while being impenetrable.

[Lasombria]

I don't think they should...

This is really going to live or die based on how faithful they are to supplying the old game experience...

Actually, no. It's going to live or die on how well they deliver something that feels like original WoW and that feels worth paying for, to enough people to make it viable.

These threads have taught me a lot about things like how thoroughly regular patrons of private servers have become accustomed to things that diverge in various ways from vanilla, to the point they'll shout en masse at people who bring up how this or that feature of the game actually was, like respeccing capping out 50g per change, not 5g. Further, it turns out that years spent playing with stolen property and not having to seriously engage with a significant spread of diverse opinions beyond one's particular bunch of buddies doesn't actually prepare many people to take constructive part in discussions with the rest of the world, and it really doesn't prepare them to understand the concerns of those who create, sell, purchase, and use complex intellectual property lawfully.

Who coulda thunk it?

[arcaneshot]

Not a valid reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

There is no logical point in releasing a Classic server that does not mimic as closely as possible the game mechanics of Classic. If you asked for a copy of Smash Bros 64 you wouldn't expect to receive one where the characters were updated and balanced to be more equal.

Might as well just release WoW 2.0 with 60 as the level cap and every class available and call it "Classic".

Maybe you should stop contradicting yourself because you're suggesting the thing you stated you were against.

[Flarelaine]

because it's not classic. I like the hybrid tax

You mean you like me paying the hyrid tax.

Oh, and once again, loud protest against class balance comes from a rogue/mage/warrior. Quel surprise.

[Tornado]

I can't believe people would even suggest such a thing. If we aren't getting a carbon copy of Vanilla then we aren't getting Vanilla WoW.