Raja Koduri jumps ships to Intel...

[Thunderball]

So tell me... does ATi still exist? Is it still a separate brand? Or is it now AMD?
They are mortal enemies.. as they are 1 company, they are not separate.

Jim Keller left in 2004 where AMD didn't acquired ATi until 2006 so no.
Jim Keller @ AMD had fixed length contracts and moved on, just like he did with Zen.

He's an engineer for hire basically ... though his current appointment may be permanent.

So again, why would he, or Raja, be put off about working for Intel?

[Amalaric]

Raja Koduri to produce new high performance desktop GPU for Intel code named Las Vegas.

[Evildeffy]

So again, why would he, or Raja, be put off about working for Intel?

Because Keller doesn't like Intel with their practices, that's one.

Two:
It's the company who screwed you over purposefully and maliciously is not wanting to hire you.
It's a bit of loyalty and general attitude towards it.

But considering Keller's positions always having been temporary and Koduri's being permanent... there's also that factor to play into it.

Let's say you work for a company and you're the big honcho there and the entire company has hated the direct competitor because of past occurrences.
Then 1 day you decide start working for that company because they offered you € 100,- more to improve their area where they were lacking and the company you worked for was considerably better in.
So you just left the company that you worked for with every innovation you had keeping them afloat and you casually stroll over and leave for the company trying it's best to bury the company .. it's a pretty dick move including the history.

[dadev]

So you just left the company that you worked for with every innovation you had keeping them afloat and you casually stroll over and leave for the company trying it's best to bury the company .. it's a pretty dick move including the history.

Maan, with this kind of thinking you're the executive's dream!
Plus, this is not always just about the money. He might've got a chance to make something new, this is not something he's going to get in AMD.

Anyway, Intel never wanted to bury AMD, just keep them as weak competitor. If for some reason AMD goes under then Intel will bring the full power of antitrust laws onto themselves, they hardly want that. They certainly didn't want that before, not sure if anything has changed to warrant such apparently stupid strategy.

[Evildeffy]

Maan, with this kind of thinking you're the executive's dream!

First: Not sure how to take that... is that a compliment or a jab?
Second: I only meant it as an example, I didn't quite literally mean that Radja Koduri is the guy who kept AMD's graphics division afloat.

Plus, this is not always just about the money. He might've got a chance to make something new, this is not something he's going to get in AMD.

Again .. just a measure of example.
It's entirely possible he'll develop an entirely new type of GPU that isn't based on current traditional designs...
Hell .. if theres 1 company who has the funds to do so it would have to be Intel.

Regardless of the reasoning behind it ... if it's a traditional GPU design than I will honestly always feel it's a dick move (as to which it honestly is).
If it's an entirely new design which will WTFSHOCKPWNBBQ the world ... then I, personally, wouldn't mind it as much as it was in a different direction than what their competitor (now his employer) was after.

Anyway, Intel never wanted to bury AMD, just keep them as weak competitor. If for some reason AMD goes under then Intel will bring the full power of antitrust laws onto themselves, they hardly want that. They certainly didn't want that before, not sure if anything has changed to warrant such apparently stupid strategy.

They want to bury AMD but not in the way they were wrecked for in multiple continents before.
Anti-trust laws only come into effect if the company didn't succumb to a "natural" bankruptcy.. if the company was unable to stay afloat for inferior products and failure to go along with the times then Intel will have free reign.

That said ... taking another company's engineers is not a reason for anti-trust lawsuits either.. only the anti-competition clause in contracts as well as trade secrets etc... experience in the field does not count for this.

That said ... if you have a very weak competitor scraping the bottom of the barrel you could always use that as marketing in the sense of like "Be happy you got us, otherwise you would have XYZ!" making yourself look like the good guy.

[dadev]

First: Not sure how to take that... is that a compliment or a jab?

Neither mate. It's just a joke. Most people don't think of the company as their second family. People are there either for the dollar, interest or status, generally not because they genuinely care what will happen with the company. I mean it's a corporation, not some small company in which you know everybody. It's mostly owned by some shareholders who you don't know, and the CEO is just the guy who outmaneuvered others on the way to the top (with some rare exceptions).

Regardless of the reasoning behind it ... if it's a traditional GPU design than I will honestly always feel it's a dick move (as to which it honestly is).
If it's an entirely new design which will WTFSHOCKPWNBBQ the world ... then I, personally, wouldn't mind it as much as it was in a different direction than what their competitor (now his employer) was after.

Real question is how you will know it? Or in other words how you'll be able to tell the difference between current design and a new one?
AMD might file for some clarifications and the architects might get them, but they know what it's about and it'll stay secret unless theft is detected. But how people who aren't involved will know?

They want to bury AMD but not in the way they were wrecked for in multiple continents before.
Anti-trust laws only come into effect if the company didn't succumb to a "natural" bankruptcy.. if the company was unable to stay afloat for inferior products and failure to go along with the times then Intel will have free reign.

I didn't mean in a way that Intel will be investigated for bankrupting AMD, but rather in the way that Intel will be left all alone, thus becoming a monopoly. Thus in many countries they will be subject to antitrust laws.

That said ... if you have a very weak competitor scraping the bottom of the barrel you could always use that as marketing in the sense of like "Be happy you got us, otherwise you would have XYZ!" making yourself look like the good guy.

There's that too.

[Evildeffy]

Neither mate. It's just a joke. Most people don't think of the company as their second family. People are there either for the dollar, interest or status, generally not because they genuinely care what will happen with the company. I mean it's a corporation, not some small company in which you know everybody. It's mostly owned by some shareholders who you don't know, and the CEO is just the guy who outmaneuvered others on the way to the top (with some rare exceptions).

I did not mean it as something bad with the question, I am sorry if I gave you that impression.
But yes honestly ... when working for a company for a while in that manner I would hope they'd feel some loyalty towards it.
But I get your point and it's entirely possible.

Real question is how you will know it? Or in other words how you'll be able to tell the difference between current design and a new one?
AMD might file for some clarifications and the architects might get them, but they know what it's about and it'll stay secret unless theft is detected. But how people who aren't involved will know?

Simply put if such a technology is revealed we will know about it later, if it's a traditional design they'll have a lot of companies breathing down that neck with IP infringement and Intel may have a shitton of money but even they can't hold that out.

I didn't mean in a way that Intel will be investigated for bankrupting AMD, but rather in the way that Intel will be left all alone, thus becoming a monopoly. Thus in many countries they will be subject to antitrust laws.

Quite possibly but they'd have the right to do w/e the fuck they want.
If this were to come to pass stuff like ARM would rise up and be even more popular than it already is.
It's still immature in the server area etc... but they are maturing VERY fast and seeing as there's a crapton of competition in that space (unlike x86) that might flourish VERY fast.
It's funny to see how Qualcomm's ARM business used to be AMD... I'm pretty sure they're regretting selling off that IP and division.

There's that too.

It would really suck being in that position again though, we just got AMD's Ryzen in the field and it's doing some major work... I'd like to keep it that way

[dadev]

I did not mean it as something bad with the question, I am sorry if I gave you that impression.

It's all good mate, no need to be sorry

Simply put if such a technology is revealed we will know about it later, if it's a traditional design they'll have a lot of companies breathing down that neck with IP infringement and Intel may have a shitton of money but even they can't hold that out.

The thing is, at that point it's not just a dick move, it's at least borderline illegal. Guy's career will be over and Intel will have a stain on the engineering department. Having such stain on marketing and pr is one thing, but engineering is a whole new world of problems.

Quite possibly but they'd have the right to do w/e the fuck they want.

In the states it really depends how you got to the position that you're a monopoly. The general assumption is that you're guilty. At least of something
In case of Intel vs AMD the evidence is already there. Intel will be the one that need to prove that past market manipulations did not cause this bankruptcy. This will be quite tough even with the huge resources Intel has. But even if by some miracle they succeed in doing that, Intel will still be regulated on every single step. In this day and age you cannot claim that computers are luxury accessories. They're necessities. If you supply necessities you will be regulated. If you're a monopoly that supplies necessities you'll be regulated so much that it's not going to be funny.

It would really suck being in that position again though, we just got AMD's Ryzen in the field and it's doing some major work... I'd like to keep it that way

I also want true competition. Stagnation just sucks. I think that if Intel believes they're going to be successful with this gpu, they need to be really really careful to not make AMD go under, otherwise this is going to be bad for most people and it will hurt the cpu market unless by that time Qualcomm will come up with something that can compete against desktops/servers.

[Evildeffy]

The thing is, at that point it's not just a dick move, it's at least borderline illegal. Guy's career will be over and Intel will have a stain on the engineering department. Having such stain on marketing and pr is one thing, but engineering is a whole new world of problems.

Considering past actions .. it's entirely possible .. I mean remember that Intel did say "ThreadRipper are glued together desktop parts!" in their Marketing/PR.
And then conveniently forgetting the fact that their prior Xeon chips were MCM designs as well as their new Intel/AMD hybrid CPU package.
Intel is not beyond dirty tactics and time will tell what comes out of this move.

In the states it really depends how you got to the position that you're a monopoly. The general assumption is that you're guilty. At least of something
In case of Intel vs AMD the evidence is already there. Intel will be the one that need to prove that past market manipulations did not cause this bankruptcy. This will be quite tough even with the huge resources Intel has. But even if by some miracle they succeed in doing that, Intel will still be regulated on every single step. In this day and age you cannot claim that computers are luxury accessories. They're necessities. If you supply necessities you will be regulated. If you're a monopoly that supplies necessities you'll be regulated so much that it's not going to be funny.

Unless Intel reverts back to P4 behaviour of basically bribing and threatening with Ryzen being out and GPUs in the future they will no longer have the need to do as such since Ryzen (and derivatives) are a great success.
But if everything checks out, even in the states, Intel has no obligations to license out x86.. in the past IBM/Government could since the patent was owned by IBM but when they sold it off to Intel ... well Intel's been trying to retract all open licenses.
But yes ... Intel's past is most deffo in question when something happens if they didn't have another hand in it this time should it occur.

I also want true competition. Stagnation just sucks. I think that if Intel believes they're going to be successful with this gpu, they need to be really really careful to not make AMD go under, otherwise this is going to be bad for most people and it will hurt the cpu market unless by that time Qualcomm will come up with something that can compete against desktops/servers.

It's unlikely something like that will happen in the foreseeable future and Intel has no reason nor desire to license out the x86 instruction set to anyone else.

Like I said though ... I bet AMD regrets selling off it's mobile division to what is now the Snapdragon and Adreno ARM architectures

[Thunderball]

Because Keller doesn't like Intel with their practices, that's one.

It's you that dont like it, dont bring up other guys in it.

Two:
It's the company who screwed you over purposefully and maliciously is not wanting to hire you.
It's a bit of loyalty and general attitude towards it.

But considering Keller's positions always having been temporary and Koduri's being permanent... there's also that factor to play into it.

There is no factor. If you stay stuff like that you wont be to work in a style that Keller does.

Let's say you work for a company and you're the big honcho there and the entire company has hated the direct competitor because of past occurrences.

Again, the only hater is you. If you want to find work in the future you dont hate anyone, and quite frankly there is no reason to.

Then 1 day you decide start working for that company because they offered you € 100,- more to improve their area where they were lacking and the company you worked for was considerably better in.
So you just left the company that you worked for with every innovation you had keeping them afloat and you casually stroll over and leave for the company trying it's best to bury the company .. it's a pretty dick move including the history.

I'd believe the €100 part if it was Keller, not with Raja. Those kind of people dont leave because of the money. Also, they dont leave the company they've put so much effort into to do the same shit they've been doing before. And again, dont project your idealistic views on other people that actually work in the industry. They dont hate based on business decisions made against the company they are working for, it's just business.

I just dont see how he could've made a dick move here: he didnt work for Nvidia, and he didnt come to Intel to develop CPUs.

[Gray_Matter]

Intel should begin making high performance desktop GPUs because we the consumers are in dire need of the competition this would bring.

You don't want Intel's form of competition in the GFX market. NVidia would end up like AMD was for the 7 odd years before Ryzen.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

Wonder how long this was on the back burner while he was working on Vega. I could be wrong but wasn't he a no show at Computex?

[Life-Binder]

You don't want Intel's form of competition in the GFX market. NVidia would end up like AMD was for the 7 odd years before Ryzen.

not a chance

- - - Updated - - -

even with Intel money you need a lot of time and a lot of talented minds to break into Nvidia dominated GPU market successfully essentially from scratch .. and thats just to compete as equals .. "burying" Nvidia seems highly unlikely any time soon

[Evildeffy]

It's you that dont like it, dont bring up other guys in it.

1: TetrisGOAT first mentioned Keller in a similar position and you continued on about him, if you wish to lay blame on someone being brought in then start with yourself.
2: I stated this quite literally previously that it is a matter of personal opinion, prior to you even getting involved in the thread in the first place.
If you are incapable of reading ... well that's not my problem is it?

There is no factor. If you stay stuff like that you wont be to work in a style that Keller does.

There is always that factor because every person is unique.
If you want to be like Keller... be my guest, he makes his intentions known from the get-go.
The majority of people however, doesn't matter where they reside or what department they are in, become attached for better or worse where they work.

Though it is curious you first tell me to stop bringing other people into it but continue to do so yourself, double standards much?

Again, the only hater is you. If you want to find work in the future you dont hate anyone, and quite frankly there is no reason to.

But there are many reasons and a lot of them are tied to the human emotional system.
Barring the fact that it could be construed as possibly stealing company secrets etc... you know the whole anti-competition clause in just about every contract in the world for a direct competitor?
The scenario in my example does not change because of what you think I am, that fact stands and may well lead to earlier explained situations.

But if you want to call me a hater then go for it, I'm not stopping you.. doesn't change the fact I've literally stated in the beginning that it is my personal opinion.
You seem to be the only person having issues with that and make a fuss over it as you obviously haven't read the thread and act like I said it's a fact and he should be burned at the stake for doing so since either not reading or pulling things entirely into a different direction or context is your specialty as your post history shows.

I'd believe the €100 part if it was Keller, not with Raja. Those kind of people dont leave because of the money. Also, they dont leave the company they've put so much effort into to do the same shit they've been doing before. And again, dont project your idealistic views on other people that actually work in the industry. They dont hate based on business decisions made against the company they are working for, it's just business.

I just dont see how he could've made a dick move here: he didnt work for Nvidia, and he didnt come to Intel to develop CPUs.

So you first make a possibly logical argument for him to do something which I've already stated in previous posts, again quite literally, and then follow it up with something akin to me being a member of the European church during the dark ages to act like I'm pushing people to view it the same way even though I've clearly stated prior that it is a matter of personal opinion that is mine (and mine alone) and why I think it is as such.

Unfortunately though neither I nor you possess a magical crystal sphere which will allow us to peer into the future to see exactly what will happen right now 10 years later, but regardless of that fact you also clearly aren't aware of anti-competition clauses mostly making your statements of "It's just business" rather dubious due to the fact they put it in place all across the world for pretty much those exact reasons.
It's also funny how that statement is often used when company secrets like that are stolen and brought to a directly competing company.

Not everything is a clear answer and next time actually put in the effort to read exactly what's written (which I know you won't because you never have in the past) before making useless and rather judgmental posts (see what I did here with this statement?) as it makes you look rather ignorant.

And with that closing statement I will also not respond to your posts in this thread anymore unless they either contain something worth discussing about or show that you've actually put effort into reading and understanding the disccusion.

[Gray_Matter]

not a chance

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even with Intel money you need a lot of time and a lot of talented minds to break into Nvidia dominated GPU market successfully essentially from scratch .. and thats just to compete as equals .. "burying" Nvidia seems highly unlikely any time soon

I am not talking about the technical aspect, I am talking about their business practices. Look at the post that I quoted. the person is asking for competition from Intel in the GFX card space. My comment was that you don't want that because if Intel gets a product that is even slightly inferior, they will decimate NVidia on other fronts. Hire out engineers, Signing deals with big companies that prohibit buying of NVidia cards in order to get Intel products at cheaper prices, etc. No one here wants Intel in the GFX card space. They will crush NVidia and push the price of GFX cards through the roof. Look at their history. Obviously if they don't have a product that is even remotely competitive then that's not an issue. That's why I said that you don't want them as competition.

[Thunderball]

a matter of personal opinion

Which doesnt matter, hope you realize it.

The majority of people however, doesn't matter where they reside or what department they are in, become attached for better or worse where they work.

No. Again, it's your problem, not their problem.

But there are many reasons and a lot of them are tied to the human emotional system.
Barring the fact that it could be construed as possibly stealing company secrets etc... you know the whole anti-competition clause in just about every contract in the world for a direct competitor?
The scenario in my example does not change because of what you think I am, that fact stands and may well lead to earlier explained situations.

Yea sure, it's human, but it also depicts you as unprofessional and unfit for the field you're in. So unless you hate your job you simply just dont do it.

But if you want to call me a hater then go for it, I'm not stopping you.. doesn't change the fact I've literally stated in the beginning that it is my personal opinion.
You seem to be the only person having issues with that and make a fuss over it as you obviously haven't read the thread and act like I said it's a fact and he should be burned at the stake for doing so since either not reading or pulling things entirely into a different direction or context is your specialty as your post history shows.

It doesnt matter which opinion it is. Problem is you're projecting it over other people who you dont know. Moreover, adopting those values negatively affects their professional status and public image.

And with that closing statement I will also not respond to your posts in this thread anymore unless they either contain something worth discussing about or show that you've actually put effort into reading and understanding the disccusion.

Start with not replying to the thread yourself. You're simply not contributing anything useful by fantasizing what would you do in those people's place (who you, again, do not know in person).

[moremana]

snip

All I see from you is a attack against a poster of this thread.

I see no useful discussion from you. This tends to be a trait from you, there are certain posters that you feel threatened by for whatever reason, get off it.

GTFO or be part of the conversation. His opinion is his, like yours is yours. he is entitled to it whether you agree or not.

[Evildeffy]

All I see from you is a attack against a poster of this thread.

I see no useful discussion from you. This tends to be a trait from you, there are certain posters that you feel threatened by for whatever reason, get off it.

GTFO or be part of the conversation. His opinion is his, like yours is yours. he is entitled to it whether you agree or not.

Please ignore him, he generally does this and is often wrong in many of his statements.
In the past I made large posts disproving almost everything with materials and the only response I get in general is fanboy.

So pay no mind to him as he's not worth the effort, a lesson I have painstakingly learned.

He just wants his name out there and paying attention to it only makes it worse.

[mrgreenthump]

not a chance

- - - Updated - - -

even with Intel money you need a lot of time and a lot of talented minds to break into Nvidia dominated GPU market successfully essentially from scratch .. and thats just to compete as equals .. "burying" Nvidia seems highly unlikely any time soon

Then again, they've shown again and again, they are willing to do pretty much anything against their competition. Got to remember, with Nvidia.. They don't have the same problem they do with AMD and the x86/x86-64 cross-licensing they have going on. They need AMD to keep their x86 licenses, they don't need Nvidia for anything.

Like Gray_Matter said, we don't even want them to try, because of the chaos it would create.

[moremana]

But .....

Its been said that Intel is going to get into the discrete graphics market. So my question is do they want to compete with nVidia in the high end.

I think @Life-Binder is on to something. Apparently developing gpus is a very complicated process. Is it to the point that it cant get any better? Kind of like cpus?

It would take a very long time, I mean shit, Raja worked for AMD and couldn't do it with Vega, the 1080Ti is a beast.

I wonder if Intel just wants the big part of the apple. The mid-range people, the $200-$300 buyers.

Is the future going to be igpus? Sometimes I wonder if the technology is there for us all to use cheaper gpus/igpus but the demand is so high on pc gaming that the profits get in the way.

I mean shit, look at the graphics cards of today versus 15 years ago. Most VCs of those days had small fans, didnt produce as much heat etc. Today, huge ass fans, giant pcbs and suck way more power. It kinda seems like they are going backwards in this market with technology. Why is that?