[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Pann]

Even the Daily Telegraph acknowledged British Rail was less expensive than the current system.

They did? Thanks for that pointless factoid. Perhaps you could give us a breakdown of the costs?

[Deleted]

Uhm? Okay? Who is you people?

People like you who subscribe to insane kleptorcratic corporatist sycophancy while pretending to be moderates under the guise of a "they're all as bad as each uvver" smokescreen of cowardice.

[Pann]

Yes. In fact it was all three major parties policy to let tax dodgers get away with it scot free because they were all itching to get a seat on executive boards when they left office. Corbyn won't and probably couldn't do that-that's why more people vote for him than Gordon Brown or Ed Milliband.

Of course it was! I hear Gordon Brown was the brains behind Starbuck's latest Frapuccino, Angostura bitters concoction.

They say the electorate ends up with the politicians they deserve!

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People like you who subscribe to insane kleptorcratic corporatist sycophancy while pretending to be moderates under the guise of a "they're all as bad as each uvver" smokescreen of cowardice.

What are you on about? Are you okay?

[Deleted]

They did? Thanks for that pointless factoid. Perhaps you could give us a breakdown of the costs?

Funny how conservative apologists demand estimates and figures when their own party failed to provide any at the last election.

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What are you on about?

Either you want to make corporations pay their taxes, or you don't. Which is it?

Your vomit-inducing attempts at humour and pop culture references are becoming tiresome. This isn't your local fucking amateur dramatics society Nigel. No one is thinking how chic and clever you are.

[Pann]

Funny how conservative apologists demand estimates and figures when their own party failed to provide any at the last election.

You are not making sense. You said "Even the Daily Telegraph acknowledged British Rail was less expensive than the current system." in which case it should be easy for you link the Telegraph's acknowledgement. Instead you go on about some nonsense about conservative apologists. And why would the Cons provide a breakdown of the costs of nationalising the railways? You do know it was Labour that suggested it?

Either you want to make corporations pay their taxes, or you don't. Which is it?

Your vomit-inducing attempts at humour and pop culture references are becoming tiresome. This isn't your local fucking amateur dramatics society Nigel. No one is thinking how chic and clever you are.

Why wouldn't you make corporations pay their taxes? Whose policy is it for companies not to pay their taxes?

Are you sure you're okay?

[Deleted]

You are not making sense. You said "Even the Daily Telegraph acknowledged British Rail was less expensive than the current system." in which case it should be easy for you link the Telegraph's acknowledgement.

The onus is on conservative supporters to cost their own election proposals. It isn't on Labour who did cost their proposals.

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Why wouldn't you make corporations pay their taxes? Whose policy is it for companies not to pay their taxes?

Major Corporations are not paying their taxes, as is a matter of public record in all forms of mainstream and for that matter alternative media.

I don't know what stupid games you are trying to play but it is really getting old. The next sentence you come out with should be a substantive comment, or please do us a favour and just fuck off.

[Pann]

The onus is on conservative supporters to cost their own election proposals. It isn't on Labour who did cost their proposals.

I am not sure you know how this works, it would be the Conservative Party's responsibility to cost their election proposals not their supporters (of which I am not one by the way). Anyway renationalising the railways was a Labour proposal, I even pointed this out in my previous post which for some reason you've not included in the quote. Are you going to link The Telegraph's acknowledgement?

Major Corporations are not paying their taxes, as is a matter of public record in all forms of mainstream and for that matter alternative media.

I don't know what stupid games you are trying to play but it is really getting old. The next sentence you come out with should be a substantive comment, or please do us a favour and just fuck off.

Are they not? Then how do you explain corporation tax receipts increasing by 21% in the 2016/17 financial year? https://www.ft.com/content/ca3e5bd2-...8-168383da43b7

Is being rude a defence mechanism when you don't know what you're talking about?

[Mittens]

Speaking about automation. Germany apparently hasn't seen a loss in jobs despite having more industrial robots than the US. I will give the Germans credit for their excellent training system.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Your vomit-inducing attempts at humour and pop culture references are becoming tiresome. This isn't your local fucking amateur dramatics society Nigel. No one is thinking how chic and clever you are.

Why are you addressing Pann as Nigel?

We're not the same poster. In case you haven't noticed, Pann is polite. I'm not.

Kronik85 got it right when they said I come here occasionally to vent at the absurdity of the situation.

And that includes venting at arrogant, self-righteous & narrow-minded people like you who cannot tolerate opinions different to your own. Who are you? Some Momentum cheerleader, busy stifling debate and deselecting MPs who don't subscribe to your great leader's manifesto?

Renationalise the railways, blah, tax the rich, blah, evil capitalists, blah blah blah. Any excuse to get your axe out, right?

This wasn't an excuse for generalised left vs centre vs right debates had many times in the past. The specific context here was Corbyn / Labour's attitude to Brexit:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...list-manifesto

Finally, Corbyn has broken his silence and explained the real reasons for his euroscepticism.

But in a break with this recent reticence, Corbyn told the Andrew Marr Show the single market “has within it restrictions in state aid and state spending. That has pressures on it through the European Union to privatise rail for example and other services.”

And there we have it... he's a Brexiteer in the Bennite mould, concerned about not being able to implement a socialist manifesto.

So.

We had a referendum called by a Conservative Remain-supporting prime minister who was playing party politics to appease a small number of arch-Brexiteers within his party. The Leave campaign lied and misled the population and won a narrow victory. The UK is now being led out of the EU by a different Conservative Remain-supporting prime minister but one who is weak and in the pocket of the same small number of arch-Brexiteers within her party. And in opposition to her is Leave-supporting socialist.

The situation is completely absurd. And the upshot? The economy is tanking. Now. It will only get worse.

And I will vent in any way I fucking choose. If you don't like this - then ignore me. I really don't give a flying fuck.

[Pann]

The situation is completely absurd. And the upshot? The economy is tanking. Now. It will only get worse.

This is my greatest fear, the Cons will mess up Brexit leaving the UK on its knees at which point the door to No. 10 will be left open for Corbyn to walk in and finish it off. I honestly don't think I have ever been this pessimistic about the political future of the UK.

[Deleted]

Why are you addressing Pann as Nigel?

Because you are a type, generic middle-class educated but ignorant, pompous, prone to belittling anything other than the retarded fag-end of the failed neo-monetarist ideology that blew up the global economy.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Because you are a type, generic middle-class educated but ignorant, pompous, prone to belittling anything other than the retarded fag-end of the failed neo-monetarist ideology that blew up the global economy.

Fuck you, dude... What do you know about my class? And out of the two of us, you're the ignorant one. At least I'm capable of taking others' points of view on board.

You're a joke. The country is facing economic ruin because of Brexit and your still picking fights about the same old fucking left vs right shit. Do you not understand this? There will be no money for any government to spend (with the exception borrowing it), let alone a socialist one, after Brexit.

Take your class warfare and fuck off.

[Deleted]

Finally, Corbyn has broken his silence and explained the real reasons for his euroscepticism.

But in a break with this recent reticence, Corbyn told the Andrew Marr Show the single market “has within it restrictions in state aid and state spending. That has pressures on it through the European Union to privatise rail for example and other services.”

And there we have it... he's a Brexiteer in the Bennite mould, concerned about not being able to implement a socialist manifesto.

This is not some "revelation". Corbyn made this clear all along, as if it wasn't blindingly obvious given he didn't vote for entry in the first place and was a known leftist during the many decades when Benn was the de facto leader of the left.

What this does indicate is that you and a disturbing number of people consume right-wing media exclusively as they generally publish, in some cases quite literally, nothing Corbyn actually says, and if they do with the most duplicitous editing conceivable. It seems you've been thoroughly brainwashed: though I suspect in your case that was just a quick rinse.

[Nigel Tufnel]

This is not some "revelation". Corbyn made this clear all along, as if it wasn't blindingly obvious given he didn't vote for entry in the first place and was a known leftist during the many decades when Benn was the de facto leader of the left.

Absolute bullshit. Of course it was fucking obvious to anyone who takes even the vaguest interest in left-wing politics. But it wasn't obvious to the vast majority of the population (who have no interest, and who can fucking blame them) throughout the Leave campaign when he failed to communicate this.

And exactly what "right-wing media" do I consume? Please inform me. Is your definition of "right-wing media" anything other than the Morning Star?

[Deleted]

You're a joke. The country is facing economic ruin because of Brexit and your still picking fights about the same old fucking left vs right shit. Do you not understand this? There will be no money for any government to spend (with the exception borrowing it), let alone a socialist one, after Brexit.

You really don't get it, do you Nigel?

For most of those voted for Brexit, economic ruin is something they are already living with. That's what happens when you impose austerity on the poor and give tax cuts to the rich, and sell it to the public by blaming immigrants. What did you people think would happen?

Now people like you are scared because the nightmare is coming to your door and mine, and hark! listen!....the sound of no one giving a fuck.

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Absolute bullshit. Of course it was fucking obvious to anyone who takes even the vaguest interest in left-wing politics. But it wasn't obvious to the vast majority of the population (who have no interest, and who can fucking blame them) throughout the Leave campaign when he failed to communicate this.

Your definition of "left-wing" seems to be people who educate themselves as to what is going on. I read the speeches of Teresa May and conservatives not because I am right-wing but because she is an important political figure. So is Corbyn.

[Nigel Tufnel]

You really don't get it, do you Nigel?

For most of those voted for Brexit, economic ruin is something they are already living with. That's what happens when you impose austerity on the poor and give tax cuts to the rich, and sell it to the public by blaming immigrants. What did you people think would happen?

Now people like you are scared because the nightmare is coming to your door and mine, and hark! listen!....the sound of no one giving a fuck.

No, I do get it. You're blinded by your own extreme political viewpoints and are incapable of tolerating any other perspective. You trot out cliche after cliche and think that you're somehow superior to everyone else, whilst calling people who have the temerity to disagree with you pompous and ignorant.

Leave / Remain voters weren't split solely on the basis of whether they wanted to give two fingers up to the system / austerity or not. A large proportion were simply racist baby-boomers, secure with their triple-locked pensions having been protected by successive governments eager not to alienate the grey vote.

And you think that austerity after the recession is going to be anything like the sort of shit we're going to see in the next decade? That's the sad thing - these people are even more fucked. I agree change was needed. But this was not the way to achieve it. Successive governments have failed, both referendum campaigns failed, the current government is failing. However, the solution is not leaving the EU neither is it electing a socialist government.

[Valerean]

Yeah you neo-liberal-capitalist-bourgeoisie-contraproletariat-revolution-prohibiter *screeches in Corbynite*

OT: Papers reporting that Davis is close to throwing in the towel (courtesy of Bozza / Gove), although can't see it happening...

[Deleted]

No, I do get it. You're blinded by your own extreme political viewpoints and are incapable of tolerating any other perspective. You trot out cliche after cliche and think that you're somehow superior to everyone else, whilst calling people who have the temerity to disagree with you pompous and ignorant.

I am superior to those people, such as yourself and Pann, who use circular logic and selective argument to demonize people like Corbyn, and have been doing so for years. Don't like it, don't dish it out.

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Leave / Remain voters weren't split solely on the basis of whether they wanted to give two fingers up to the system / austerity or not. A large proportion were simply racist baby-boomers, secure with their triple-locked pensions having been protected by successive governments eager not to alienate the grey vote.

Of course but the UKIP crowd isn't large enough to win a referendum.

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However, the solution is not leaving the EU neither is it electing a socialist government.

The actual Labour manifesto was not particulary socialist. You have had forty years of the greatest divergence between executive and worker pay in human history. Labour wouldn't even come close to correcting that imbalance even if they did everything they said they were going to. You've been fed a line by media corporations owned by billionaires that this is normal: it isn't, and regular folk increasingly sense that if they don't understand it or what the solution is. That rage manifests itself in Trump, Brexit and also Corbyn.

For large numbers of people in the EU and the UK things can hardly get much more worse. Unless the remainers can convince people their lives are going to improve you are just going to harden their position and alienate people.

[Omega10]

As a non-UK person, I see there is complete agreement on the fact that the UK economy has been really bad for middle class and working class people. Is this pretty much consensus?

[Deleted]

As a non-UK person, I see there is complete agreement on the fact that the UK economy has been really bad for middle class and working class people. Is this pretty much consensus?

Yeah. The difference being that the working class are ready to do almost anything to change it, however stupid. The middle-class don't really want any change because that would probably erode the substantial advantages they enjoy over the poor structurally, so they pay lip service to criticizing the government while in practice supporting them.

But, yeah, if you look at the figures it is difficult to make a case for either group having done well in the last decade.