Antorus sims

[NtflxnChill]

https://twitter.com/FSYLazel/status/932373319483035648

[Archimtiros]

Thank you for the explanation, although I still disagree about it having to be used(especially in the stack ranks, seeing as they're closer to being a "realistic" raid comp than single actor sims, so there should be no need to change the settings to account for anything), and I'm clearly right that it is an increase over not using fixed_time, which was what I was saying. This part, however, is clearly not true considering I PM'd you an improved(30-50% on 2-5 targets) Arms cleave/AoE APL months ago, and got no response whatsoever(and last time I checked, it wasn't added to the default APL either)

I'm a busy guy; if I missed your PM, I probably just missed your PM, rather than ignoring it as part of a nefarious scheme (I also really haven't put much work into multi-target sims in general, since it's an incredibly misleading metric to begin with, due to their being extremely few start-to-finish constant multi-target encounters in the game). I have over 10,000 mentions in the class Discord, a few hundred notifications on MMO-C, and I don't even want to know how many DMs - if I didn't respond to you, it's pretty reasonable to assume that it just got lost in the mess of things; sorry.

And yes, you are right that using fixed_time is an increase over not using fixed_time, but you did not say "it's just an increase", you said:

And because Archi insists on using fixed_time for warrior sims, which is silly(the comment regarding "the target exploding below 20%" is just dumb, because that's literally what happens during execute phase in the "real world", and prolonging execute phase in sims is just disingenuous)

With emphasis on the highlighted, all four of which are factually incorrect; fixed_time is in fact closer to reality, as I explained above. Even still, just because it's an increase, doesn't mean it's an unrealistic increase, as opposed to say, mid-combat Charge, which is an increase that I leave out of default simulations, since you can't expect a player to always be able to Charge for DPS rather than mechanics.

[Tradu]

I'm a busy guy; if I missed your PM, I probably just missed your PM, rather than ignoring it as part of a nefarious scheme (I also really haven't put much work into multi-target sims in general, since it's an incredibly misleading metric to begin with, due to their being extremely few start-to-finish constant multi-target encounters in the game). I have over 10,000 mentions in the class Discord, a few hundred notifications on MMO-C, and I don't even want to know how many DMs - if I didn't respond to you, it's pretty reasonable to assume that it just got lost in the mess of things; sorry.

And yes, you are right that using fixed_time is an increase over not using fixed_time, but you did not say "it's just an increase", you said:



With emphasis on the highlighted, all four of which are factually incorrect; fixed_time is in fact closer to reality, as I explained above. Even still, just because it's an increase, doesn't mean it's an unrealistic increase, as opposed to say, mid-combat Charge, which is an increase that I leave out of default simulations, since you can't expect a player to always be able to Charge for DPS rather than mechanics.

Except of course fixed_time is unnecessary in multi-actor sims, because the many actors already make execute phase last longer than it would otherwise(because there's more non-execute specs in the stack ranks than execute specs, and the ratio favors execute specs more than in real raid comps), and raid DPS definitely does increase overall during execute phase(as your example showed), so the target going from 20% -> 0% faster than 60% -> 40% is definitely realistic, and using fixed_time skews that.

And here's the APL, enjoy(not that it's optimized at all, which should show just how bad the AoE/cleave APLs are, to the point where Arms loses/lost DPS going from 1 to 2 targets, because Ravager and Execute just don't get used). I didn't suggest it was out of malice anyway, just said it happened. Also, as I mentioned in the PM you missed, having sections in the APL that are just flat out wrong is (imo) worse than not having those sections at all. I also don't think those APLs are worthless, especially not 2-3t cleave, which comes up quite frequently in raids.

[Archimtiros]

Except of course fixed_time is unnecessary in multi-actor sims, because the many actors already make execute phase last longer than it would otherwise(because there's more non-execute specs in the stack ranks than execute specs, and the ratio favors execute specs more than in real raid comps), and raid DPS definitely does increase overall during execute phase(as your example showed), so the target going from 20% -> 0% faster than 60% -> 40% is definitely realistic, and using fixed_time skews that.

Actually my example, in big bolded letters, showed that total dps actually decreased during the Execute phase, despite the individual Warrior's own damage increasing.

And if you're referring to the front page stack rankings, they don't even use fixed_time in the first place (note the lack of a disclaimer at the top, and the Fury sample sequence Execute phase lasting only 17% of the simulation time).

On the other hand, fixed_time is beneficial for multi-actor sims, because then the Warrior is a disproportionate percentage of the total damage (ex: 1 out of 5 of the simulated group, vs 1 out of 15 in an actual raid).

[Divinexve]

I wish fury was the better dpsing spec until the end of time

[Lithix]

Hey Archi, out of curiosity sake, did you report Fury for being higher than other specs, like you did for Arms before Tomb came out? As it was above Fury a bit.
You know, when you were not happy about the Helm Lego, Execute ring and also their talents were giving them too much power.

[Archimtiros]

Hey Archi, out of curiosity sake, did you report Fury for being higher than other specs, like you did for Arms before Tomb came out? As it was above Fury a bit.
You know, when you were not happy about the Helm Lego, Execute ring and also their talents were giving them too much power.

Yes, I did, and I'm pretty certain it'll see some amount of nerfs in the next round of balancing (not necessarily because of my recommendation, but simply because it is pretty strong) as well. I'd think that the 2p would be a good tuning knob, since it's a fairly static bonus (doesn't interact with much), and 7% is a high gain for a 2p, especially one with a strong 4p bonus as well.

That said, Fury kind of needs to be higher than Arms in a static environment, if it has any hope of competing in an actual raid one. Without spending too much time on this; Arms has more potential to gain extra damage (low target cleave, intermittent execute on adds), or at the very least has less potential for damage loss when mechanics aren't in their favor (downtime hurts Fury more, losing Juggernaut, encounters get shorter, etc); it's up to the actual encounters to see how things play out, we just do the best we can to create predictions ahead of time. Using ToS as an example; I predicted that Fury would be ~3% behind Arms in a static environment, and for a time they were pretty close... but then the single target and heavy AoE encounters got significantly shorter (Goroth, Harjatan, Mistress), and the majority of the other encounters had cleavable adds (DI, Host, Avatar, KJ), which all contributed to Arms progressively pulling further ahead on the majority of encounters. Fury, frankly, needs a buffer to keep it from devaluing so quickly.

Also to be fair with the ToS Arms nerfs, my recommendation was nerfing Exec Precision, not the legendary themselves, but then the developers look at data different than I do, and probably have different design priorities as well.

[Seramore]

Hey Archi, out of curiosity sake, did you report Fury for being higher than other specs, like you did for Arms before Tomb came out? As it was above Fury a bit.
You know, when you were not happy about the Helm Lego, Execute ring and also their talents were giving them too much power.

OuT oF CuRiOsItY SaKe

[Lithix]

Also to be fair with the ToS Arms nerfs, my recommendation was nerfing Exec Precision, not the legendary themselves, but then the developers look at data different than I do, and probably have different design priorities as well.

Understandable.

Thanks for your reply, I wasn't targeting you for being Fury biased (Although it might have looked like it) I respect the work you do for the warrior community at whole, nerfs included Although, its kinda nice seeing us being so strong from time to time!

OuT oF CuRiOsItY SaKe

Clearly hit a nerve with you, maybe a hardcore fury fanboi?

[PenguinJim]

I noticed on the Arms sims that the trinket being used was Gorshalach's Legacy, but I was under the impression that this will no longer be BiS since it was changed from on use to something you cannot control. Mistake by the sim or has something changed?

[Archimtiros]

I noticed on the Arms sims that the trinket being used was Gorshalach's Legacy, but I was under the impression that this will no longer be BiS since it was changed from on use to something you cannot control. Mistake by the sim or has something changed?

I changed it to Seeping Scourgewing with the last APL update. Though frankly, even a moderate (900+) level Arcanocrystal is better.

[Bigbazz]

I've not been playing WoW for most of this year, but I've been checking the weather forecast recently just like before TOS, my buddies playing the game and investing time into this tell me that Fury on the PTR really is in a different league with the builds they are trying, I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard drop the hammer on Fury while Arms stays just under the radar.

As for the sims they are almost never a good indication of class balance in actual gameplay situations, the class modules are not all created equally and some of the early models for patches are often pretty short sighted and missing the mark on their predictions of best builds/specs/gameplay when used in a practical environment, especially when it comes to predicting weaker specs.. Too many times I've seen players crying about their specs being weak on simcraft, while they dominate on actual boss progression.

And because Archi insists on using fixed_time for warrior sims, which is silly(the comment regarding "the target exploding below 20%" is just dumb, because that's literally what happens during execute phase in the "real world", and prolonging execute phase in sims is just disingenuous)

In a time before the prolonged execute phase we had to populate the simulation with a raid group to get accurate results because otherwise it would post results as if 20 DPS Warriors with cooldowns up were participating in the fight causing the execute phase to be super short, very unrealistic.

[PenguinJim]

I changed it to Seeping Scourgewing with the last APL update. Though frankly, even a moderate (900+) level Arcanocrystal is better.

Thanks for the confirmation! Perhaps one day I will be blessed with an Arcanocrystal myself.

[Deleted]

@Archimtiros

Exlcuding the last 20% of the encounter (as you did in some of your sims), how much value does Soul-ring loose vs. Cloak and Head in a vacuum? And wouldn't IR again gain ground? Even Carnage?
The frontpage SIM, although flashy, is a tad unrelastic due to mechanical downtime, and I wouldn't recommend that build for progress (which is largely spend above 20% anyway).

TL: DR: perhaps a simulation optimized exlcuding the last 20% (legendaries+talents incl) would bring value for progression.

[Archimtiros]

@Archimtiros

Exlcuding the last 20% of the encounter (as you did in some of your sims), how much value does Soul-ring loose vs. Cloak and Head in a vacuum? And wouldn't IR again gain ground? Even Carnage?
The frontpage SIM, although flashy, is a tad unrelastic due to mechanical downtime, and I wouldn't recommend that build for progress (which is largely spend above 20% anyway).

TL: DR: perhaps a simulation optimized exlcuding the last 20% (legendaries+talents incl) would bring value for progression.

Very little though you should use Legs and Helm instead of Cloak, IR yes but not enough to warrant using it, Carnage yes, can wait for the guide or check the link in my signature for more info.

The frontpage SIM, although flashy, is a tad unrelastic due to mechanical downtime, and I wouldn't recommend that build for progress (which is largely spend above 20% anyway).

Not sure I entirely agree. Yes, you're bound to spend a lot of time >20% while learning encounters, but I err on the side of practicing like I'm going for the kill. While there's not a huge difference in terms of actual gameplay between the two, I think getting used to playing one way, and then swapping over once the kill is in sight is more likely to throw you off than help you (and at worst, although very unlikely, potentially cause issues like pushing phases/killing targets at different times).

I also tend to believe that <20% is the most difficult part of most encounters, as many bosses have "race to the finish" checks and players are more apt to die, especially on progression. That said, there's room in Antorus for both setups, since not every boss has a great Execute phase (ex: Eonar, potentially Argus).

[Jastall]

Dammit Archi, I blame you and your sims for the massive nerfbat Fury took to the set bonuses .

No but seriously, is it even going to be worth it now? 25% increased damage just on Rampage for 8 seconds doesn't seem amazing, especially for a 4set.

[Antero]

i n t o t h e g r o u n d

[ramayana1423]

Dammit Archi, I blame you and your sims for the massive nerfbat Fury took to the set bonuses .

No but seriously, is it even going to be worth it now? 25% increased damage just on Rampage for 8 seconds doesn't seem amazing, especially for a 4set.

Fury is dead. Playing FOB Arms rest of the expansion might finally be the breaking point for me with this game.

[Seramore]

Fury is dead. Playing FOB Arms rest of the expansion might finally be the breaking point for me with this game.

that moment when you make a post thinking you know what you're talking about

[Jastall]

Fury is dead. Playing FOB Arms rest of the expansion might finally be the breaking point for me with this game.

Never say dead until we see the logs. Seems like every single good tier set got hammered. Hopefully a round of T20 nerfs happen as well.

Plus, FoB Arms is inferior to Rend anyways last I checked. Not that I'll ever willingly play Arms.