Classic warlocks, of course you want tweaks/balance changes. OR DO YOU!?

[Deleted]

I had two level 60s in vanilla, my main lock and an alt warrior (everybody did alt warriors back then it felt like).

- Soul shards: at least make them stack? Farming before every raid is really just beyond tedious, it's almost mean from the devs. Making the shards dissapear after logging out for more than 30 mins (iirc) is sadistic.

- DPS/aggro issue: Even with -20% threat from using imp with master demonologist, doing slightly more damage than the tanks and still holding back because almost pulling aggro is very frustrating and almost ruins the raiding experience. Tweak damage/aggro ratio?

- Life tap: Spending a good 30-40% of your global cooldown time (I pulled that % out of my arse) is bad design, IMO but probably objectively too. Tweak this?


These issues are related to raiding, and I understand that warlocks being a utility class (Blood pact, health stones, summoning, curse of shadow/elements, banish etc...) damage isn't the main focus maybe. However mages, hunters and rogues all bring utility too, maybe not as much, but don't seem to suffer the same issues. Warlocks SHOULD imo be able to do a bit more damage, and have a bit less threat generation.

Otherwise for PvP, leveling and dungeons the class was absolutely fantastic and perfectly balanced, IMO!

What do my fellow vanilla locks have to say?

[Deleted]

if they did it to Warlocks, what would stop them from changing Mage(Refreshment Table instead of trading food) etc, Why not give Warrior dps a "feint" like ability so we wont overaggro, hell, lets give Paladins a taunt aswell so they can "tank", but that would mean they'd also need specific gear to get to the defence cap, but it also has to give spellpower so they can keep aggro, its a whole can of worms that should be spoken about, but its a extremely delicate topic

I can agree with the Soul Shards stacking, having had a Warlock in end-vanilla, it was a bit of a pain, but any kind of DPS/threat modifications really shouldnt happen imo, minor QoL changes arent too bad I suppose, guild bank, multiple items in mail etc

also, as you wrote yourself "Otherwise for PvP, leveling and dungeons the class was absolutely fantastic and perfectly balanced, IMO"
If they were to buff Warlock damage, wouldnt that roll into them being even stronger in PvP, leveling and dungeons?

[Deleted]

dont discuss changes on this forum, you will only be bombarded by "purists" and jerks that says "THEN ITS NO VANILLA, YOU DIDNT EVEN PLAY CLASSIC OR WANT THE SERVER". the only issue i had was with the soulshards, but guess we will have to live with it!

[Kromus!]

I don't feel strongly against quality of life changes like you mentioned, and if that's the route Blizzard go down, your idea is a really good one, so I'd be fine with stacking soul shards. Though I'd rather they didn't.

I must be a masochist because I actually miss the pre-raid grinding of soul shards...you're right, it was a pain, especially on the bag space side, but it kinda became part of my routine before a raid, and made having tailoring on my Warlock have an added use (soul shard bags). Leaving a path of bodies through Elwyn forest just so I can be ready for raid but no bag space what so ever was part of it, and fits warlocks quite well (murder all the things because SOULLLSSS).

I hope this isn't the rose tinted glasses talking...

[Deleted]

I don't feel strongly against quality of life changes like you mentioned, and if that's the route Blizzard go down, your idea is a really good one, so I'd be fine with stacking soul shards. Though I'd rather they didn't.

I must be a masochist because I actually miss the pre-raid grinding of soul shards...you're right, it was a pain, especially on the bag space side, but it kinda became part of my routine before a raid, and made having tailoring on my Warlock have an added use (soul shard bags). Leaving a path of bodies through Elwyn forest just so I can be ready for raid but no bag space what so ever was part of it, and fits warlocks quite well (murder all the things because SOULLLSSS).

I hope this isn't the rose tinted glasses talking...

But wasnt the mob required to give experience/honor to generate a Soul Shard? meaning you'd have to grind on level 54+ targets at 60, I'm not 100% sure, my memory of that time is rather foggy

[Deleted]

But wasnt the mob required to give experience/honor to generate a Soul Shard? meaning you'd have to grind on level 54+ targets at 60, I'm not 100% sure, my memory of that time is rather foggy

I do remember that too, but I can't really specifically remember which mobs I farmed Before. I Think I used to go to felwood and farm the satyrs to get essence of shadow at the same time. And then I drain souled every trash mob in the raid also /naughty.

[Deleted]

warlocks are already one of the best dps classes in vanilla. removing threat from the equation would put them over the top. life tap doesn't matter in raids unless your priests and druids are incompetant

[Morgomir]

if they fix the damn debuff limits it would be nice too
once they got up to 16 debuff slots in Naxx warlocks actually got to do DPS instead of standing around

is it funny I still remember my soulshard farming spots

[Flarelaine]

I had two level 60s in vanilla, my main lock and an alt warrior (everybody did alt warriors back then it felt like).

- Soul shards: at least make them stack? Farming before every raid is really just beyond tedious, it's almost mean from the devs. Making the shards dissapear after logging out for more than 30 mins (iirc) is sadistic.

- DPS/aggro issue: Even with -20% threat from using imp with master demonologist, doing slightly more damage than the tanks and still holding back because almost pulling aggro is very frustrating and almost ruins the raiding experience. Tweak damage/aggro ratio?

- Life tap: Spending a good 30-40% of your global cooldown time (I pulled that % out of my arse) is bad design, IMO but probably objectively too. Tweak this?

These issues are related to raiding, and I understand that warlocks being a utility class (Blood pact, health stones, summoning, curse of shadow/elements, banish etc...) damage isn't the main focus maybe. However mages, hunters and rogues all bring utility too, maybe not as much, but don't seem to suffer the same issues. Warlocks SHOULD imo be able to do a bit more damage, and have a bit less threat generation.

Otherwise for PvP, leveling and dungeons the class was absolutely fantastic and perfectly balanced, IMO!

What do my fellow vanilla locks have to say?

There are no words for how much I hated warlocks back then as a healer. I always felt Life Tap was a way for them to spend MY mana.

Right now, I'm contemplating rolling a lock for classic so it's nice to have these warnings. Yes, I think shard stacking would be nice.

[Kuja]

I can't duel. I have no shards! Comes to mind from one of the old machnimas.

So yes, the soul shards taking inventory space is just mean. I would never play a warlock again

[Flarelaine]

That's exactly what it was. Why did you bring warlocks anyway? maybe 1 to summon people

They were some of our better players, so good DPS. And my guild never had a 40-man roster to pick and choose from, anyway. We were a bunch of IRL friends & family.

[Deleted]

warlocks are already one of the best dps classes in vanilla. removing threat from the equation would put them over the top. life tap doesn't matter in raids unless your priests and druids are incompetant

This post really confuses me, and I don't want to resort to the usual arguments and rather discuss constructively, but if you say warlocks were one of the best DPS classes in vanilla it leads me to Believe you never raided in vanilla or are remembering wrong, or are trolling. Because it's so obviously incorrect.

It was literally impossible for our warlocks (in a Guild called Forte which got a few EU firsts in Naxx 40 and realm first everything from BWL to Naxx) to out DPS any of the other DPS specs. Rogues, hunters and mages topped the charts, fury warriors were also beasts later on with proper gear.

The DPS was abysmal in due to the following facts:
- No DOTS allowed due to debuff slots.
- Holding back already subpar DPS because of aggro.
- Insane mana issues and a rotation consisting of only shadow bolt and Life tap.

Now we were overall a great class. Dungeons were better because of shorter bosses and more DPS from dots. PvP was awesome. Leveling and soloing was a breeze.

But nobody who did any serious raiding then can with any conviction claim warlocks raid DPS was good, or anything better than subpar.

However if that's the vision and intended then hey ho I can buy that. But if we're supposed to be a pure DPS class it isn't really good design at all.

[Gestopft]

Reason #383864 I will be playing BfA and not Classic. For people that do want to play Classic, at the very least I would hope that the debuff limit goes.

[Lawnmower]

I find it humorous when people ask for a vanilla server and then want to change "x" feature. I am not flaming by any means as I, too, would welcome shard stacking and debuff limit removal. I feel as though vanilla added complexity that live is lacking. I hope the creators will see we welcome complexity for the most part and they somehow integrate it back into the main game.

[Deleted]

This post really confuses me, and I don't want to resort to the usual arguments and rather discuss constructively, but if you say warlocks were one of the best DPS classes in vanilla it leads me to Believe you never raided in vanilla or are remembering wrong, or are trolling. Because it's so obviously incorrect.

It was literally impossible for our warlocks (in a Guild called Forte which got a few EU firsts in Naxx 40 and realm first everything from BWL to Naxx) to out DPS any of the other DPS specs. Rogues, hunters and mages topped the charts, fury warriors were also beasts later on with proper gear.

The DPS was abysmal in due to the following facts:
- No DOTS allowed due to debuff slots.
- Holding back already subpar DPS because of aggro.
- Insane mana issues and a rotation consisting of only shadow bolt and Life tap.

Now we were overall a great class. Dungeons were better because of shorter bosses and more DPS from dots. PvP was awesome. Leveling and soloing was a breeze.

But nobody who did any serious raiding then can with any conviction claim warlocks raid DPS was good, or anything better than subpar.

However if that's the vision and intended then hey ho I can buy that. But if we're supposed to be a pure DPS class it isn't really good design at all.

If you say warlock dps wasnt good then you were a shit warlock

Even spamming shadowbolt you could do alot of damage with a shadow priest on raid

[Lochton]

Pff... From a Warlock Vanilla Main.... SUFFER WITH YOUR NON-STACKING SOULSHARDS, SUFFER YOU ALL! BWAHAHAHAHAHA...

*coughs*

Sorry, had to get out of my system. Though, not really for those kind of changes. Threat management was a big deal in classic, and should still be. Your 'punishments' matches your rewards, Warlock DPS wasn't bad nor hard.

[Deleted]

No they shouldnt, play retail if thats your thing, classic is going to be vanilla as _based_ Ion already said.

[MiiiMiii]

The only thing I agree on is the soulshards stacking and not disappearing when logging out. Threat issues and life tap spam is part of the experience.

Soul Shards and WotF is the reasons I won't play Warlock.

[Deleted]

As a lock, the only thing I'd want to see is an increase to the debuff limit. However, will that cause bosses to die too fast? Maybe give all bosses a 20% HP increase to compensate or something.

Even when I played on nost on 1.12 it felt like bosses died too fast because of the dots. Then again, I'm not really sure, changing something might cause a snowball effect.

[Aeula]

Soul shards are going to be such a pain in the ass.