More Kil'jaeden nerfs tomorrow yeah or nah?

[Nitros14]

You're either ignoring 10 mans or there's some other issue with these numbers. Having killed both, I can safely say that Sha of Fear was a joke compared to KJ (both versions, even). The former didn't even get any major nerfs and was still much easier. Now, Blackhand, maybe. Perhaps Archimonde, though he had a long term built in nerf mechanism and his tier lasted for much longer. But Sha of Fear? Seriously?

Just go to wowprogress. It's an armory scanner. 532 guilds killed heroic Sha of Fear, including both 10 and 25, before March 5th when Throne of Thunder released. There's no different achievements for 10 and 25 then. No argument that original mythic Kil'jaeden is harder, but Sha of Fear didn't receive significant nerfs, Kil'jaeden has received significant nerfs.



Edit: Right I just remembered that Asia guilds weren't included back then because they actually fought a different boss. 25-man loot was 12 ilvls higher for Asia guilds and 25-man bosses had 15% more health and damage during Pandaria.

So that adds 46 extra kills for Kil'jaeden. Doesn't change it too drastically.

Also if you go back further, 226 guilds killed Kil'jaeden before 3.0 and 92 guilds killed Kel'Thuzad before 2.0.

[Aggrophobic]

The fight is no longer difficult. Everything that's bad has been nerfed one way or another. There's no more obvious nerfs left to do - plenty of guilds already stop DPS for ages (or find themselves pushing before the second DPS adds) because of HP nerfs.

Simply put, "Nah". Dudes on par with most other nerfed end bosses at this stage. No nerfs needed. If you can't get him this last week, you weren't good enough.

Ooh, someones too cool for the internet!
I killed him befor the nerfs (Well, the last ones) and that bastard is still hard or at least really annoying. We managed to rekill him once but no one even wants to try for a third time. He's just that much of a pain in the ass.

This tier has been one of the least pleasant in WoW history. For me at least.

[Dracodraco]

I can say without a doubt that if you consider all bosses in the last 2 expansions, and see how easy/hard they were after 5 months, KJ is by far the hardest one. I cant think of anything that comes close to that.

Your issue is that you're comparing KJ over the past 5 months to other end bosses over the past 5, instead of comparing the *current* version of KJ to what the end bosses looked like "at the end". KJ being badly tuned to start with doesn't warrant nerfing him further than other end bosses have been in the past to make up for it.

You probably dont realize you're wrong because you're in a guild where no one makes mistakes, in that case sure KJ is easy. The real problem with KJ is that so many little mistakes from just one person will wipe the raid, something that other end bosses (at least in the last 2 years) didnt have. If we consider Archimonde or Guldan, sure you could wipe the raid, but you had a lot less chances to do so. But if you're in a normal mythic guild (around top 300 like mine and past that) you cant expect everyone to execute 100%, and on KJ this will lead to a lot more wipes.

That's fucking horseshit. The main difference between top 100 and top 300 is the amount of hours we put into the game, not how well we play. Archi in particular had many "instant wipe"-mechanics (run too early with the bonds, run into wrong group with your mark, place an obelisk on top of another obelisk etc). It just isn't as fresh and as the fight went from 12 minutes to 6 minutes, people started seeing it less and less, to the extent where you never actually saw wipes happen to it in the end.

The simple fact Blizz admitted (first time i think) TOS was overtuned is a proof that KJ is not on par like you said. Sure they nerfed it a lot, but they cant nerf what is really causing the pain on this fight for most guilds, unless they totally change the fight.

The code word here is *was*. I'll restate for posterity: KJ absolutely was one of if not the most overtuned pieces of shit early on. But that doesn't mean that he's *still* overtuned right now. Since the last batch of nerfs for him, he's absolutely "on par" with the end-bosses of other tiers. There's just a ton of guilds that's given up before reaching this point (for example, look at Prime on Tarren Mill EU - they couldn't field a proper setup for KJ progress, so they decided to just go into farm mode after Avatar, and has since disbanded; However, all of this happened *prior* to the nerfs. This is a guild that got world #26 on Avatar, so it's not like they were afraid of headbashing a hard encounter).

But dont tell me its like Imperator, Blackhand, Archimonde, or Guldan. No fucking way. I was in worst guild during these times and after 5 months we'd kill them in few tries even bringing some new players not on progression, now im in a better guild (top 300) and we still wipe all evening on that shit.

Again - it wasn't initially. After the Armageddon hail change finished off any kind of comp requirements you might have as of two weeks ago? Absolutely. He's not any worse than Guldan. Honestly, he's probably easier, because P1/1.5 makes up about 35-40% of the fight, and both of those it's almost impossible to wipe on for a guild that's actually looking at getting a kill, due to how simple they are.

Simply put, because immunities can be used to just soak up the orbs from DPS adds (which you were hard pressed to do before the Hail hotfix, due to needing them for soaking Hails), and because the damage / HP of everything else has been reduced so drastically from what it used to be, the encounter in it's current incarnation is on par with most other end bosses after nerfs. It's not more than a 200 pull boss - something you still expected from a post-nerf lei shen, Helya, Guldan and Archimonde (assuming we're talking 5 months, not 12, in).

Ooh, someones too cool for the internet!
I killed him befor the nerfs (Well, the last ones) and that bastard is still hard or at least really annoying. We managed to rekill him once but no one even wants to try for a third time. He's just that much of a pain in the ass.

This tier has been one of the least pleasant in WoW history. For me at least.

All end bosses were "hard" or "really annoying" for the first few rekills. Nothings' really changed there. Sure, you'd have flukes of strolling in and killing the boss in a few pulls one week, just like we did with KJ (think our second or third kill took under 5 attempts), but then you'll have an entire wipe evening on it the next. That's how the end bosses have historically been, because you only *just* got good enough to get a kill. You need things to work in your favor again untill you get comfortable actually killing it despite fucking up.

(also, really? A "2edgy4me" insult? I'm sure you can come up with better. My entire point has been that the boss doesn't warrant further nerfing if it's currently at a level where it's on par with other end bosses, which it is. Has nothing to do with being "too cool for the internet", it has something to do with not seeing a need to over-nerf something just because it was overtuned - something Blizzard clearly agrees with, or we'd have seen the nerfs hit much harder, much faster, instead of the slow trickle we've had to see when it felt "right").

Just go to wowprogress. It's an armory scanner. 532 guilds killed heroic Sha of Fear, including both 10 and 25, before March 5th when Throne of Thunder released. There's no different achievements for 10 and 25 then. No argument that original mythic Kil'jaeden is harder, but Sha of Fear didn't receive significant nerfs, Kil'jaeden has received significant nerfs.



Edit: Right I just remembered that Asia guilds weren't included back then because they actually fought a different boss. 25-man loot was 12 ilvls higher for Asia guilds and 25-man bosses had 15% more health and damage during Pandaria.

So that adds 46 extra kills for Kil'jaeden. Doesn't change it too drastically.

Also if you go back further, 226 guilds killed Kil'jaeden before 3.0 and 92 guilds killed Kel'Thuzad before 2.0.

Pretty sure there's a lot of asian guilds that aren't being recorded ATM as well, a long with that one german cluster that for some reason isn't included, so the numbers are probably about right.

[Aggrophobic]

All end bosses were "hard" or "really annoying" for the first few rekills. Nothings' really changed there. Sure, you'd have flukes of strolling in and killing the boss in a few pulls one week, just like we did with KJ (think our second or third kill took under 5 attempts), but then you'll have an entire wipe evening on it the next. That's how the end bosses have historically been, because you only *just* got good enough to get a kill. You need things to work in your favor again untill you get comfortable actually killing it despite fucking up.

(also, really? A "2edgy4me" insult? I'm sure you can come up with better. My entire point has been that the boss doesn't warrant further nerfing if it's currently at a level where it's on par with other end bosses, which it is. Has nothing to do with being "too cool for the internet", it has something to do with not seeing a need to over-nerf something just because it was overtuned - something Blizzard clearly agrees with, or we'd have seen the nerfs hit much harder, much faster, instead of the slow trickle we've had to see when it felt "right").

Not in the same way as many of the ToS bosses though. Fights such as Mistress, Avatar and KJ were just silly. Not the difficulty in itself but the over all design.
They were designed to be frustrating, not challenging. Thats how it felt to me anyhow and I haven't missed many of the bosses over the years.

The "insult" seemed fitting there though. I mean, go and read your own post again and think about it for a few sec.

[Dracodraco]

Not in the same way as many of the ToS bosses though. Fights such as Mistress, Avatar and KJ were just silly. Not the difficulty in itself but the over all design.
They were designed to be frustrating, not challenging. Thats how it felt to me anyhow and I haven't missed many of the bosses over the years.

The "insult" seemed fitting there though. I mean, go and read your own post again and think about it for a few sec.

It's only fitting if you have no concept of difficulty. Me saying "it's fine right now" isn't me being "too good" at this game. I'm hilariously mediocre when it comes to Mythic raiding as a player, I just have a different skillset that makes me valueable for a mythic guild (such as being able to effectively analyze a fight and a raid team, and come up with a proper strategy for the specific situation, along with caring so little about my personal output that I can always be relied upon to do the shit jobs). It's also only fitting if you don't realise that the boss in it's current state is pretty much fine, and that I wasn't referring to what it *used* to be like - in which case, that's an issue with reading comprehension, as I made that clear a fair few times.

Mind, I don't disagree that the fights were badly designed/frustrating in their early stages. They *absolutely* were, because their difficulty lied in brutal setup or gear checks, not in actual "difficulty" of handling mechanics. That's hardly the case for any of those fights anymore though, KJ very much included. There's no DPS checks, there's no setup requirements, you don't HAVE to do the shadow phase in 1-2 balls (in fact we've done 4 the past few weeks because our DKs suck at life and gripping stuff in general) because it's all predictable WAY ahead of time, the DPS adds can be blocked off with spare immunities so nobody has to even dodge balls, and your healers no longer has to stress in P3 because the rifts generally won't lose much HP from orbs, because they were heavily nerfed so they barely leave fire patches anymore.

The *only* shred of difficulty left lies in the P3 obelisks, in my opinion. You're reliant on that one guy not making a bad call 4 times in a row - if he does, you get fucked and start over. But even then, I think that's fair enough for a mythic end boss that there's a very slow, entirely dodgeable 1 shot mechanic. That you effectively have to put the pressure of doing so on 1 dude because it's not reasonable to expect everyone else to perform the other mechanics AND find a safespot at the same time is just annoying (and it'd be a lot more reasonable if it drew lines on the arena while it was charging up so people could do so for themselves, but then, it'd also be a guaranteed 1 shot as there's ZERO mechanical differences between heroic and mythic, apart from getting 1 extra fire-orb per darkness-cycle).

[Aggrophobic]

It's only fitting if you have no concept of difficulty. Me saying "it's fine right now" isn't me being "too good" at this game. I'm hilariously mediocre when it comes to Mythic raiding as a player, I just have a different skillset that makes me valueable for a mythic guild (such as being able to effectively analyze a fight and a raid team, and come up with a proper strategy for the specific situation, along with caring so little about my personal output that I can always be relied upon to do the shit jobs). It's also only fitting if you don't realise that the boss in it's current state is pretty much fine, and that I wasn't referring to what it *used* to be like - in which case, that's an issue with reading comprehension, as I made that clear a fair few times.

Mind, I don't disagree that the fights were badly designed/frustrating in their early stages. They *absolutely* were, because their difficulty lied in brutal setup or gear checks, not in actual "difficulty" of handling mechanics. That's hardly the case for any of those fights anymore though, KJ very much included. There's no DPS checks, there's no setup requirements, you don't HAVE to do the shadow phase in 1-2 balls (in fact we've done 4 the past few weeks because our DKs suck at life and gripping stuff in general) because it's all predictable WAY ahead of time, the DPS adds can be blocked off with spare immunities so nobody has to even dodge balls, and your healers no longer has to stress in P3 because the rifts generally won't lose much HP from orbs, because they were heavily nerfed so they barely leave fire patches anymore.

The *only* shred of difficulty left lies in the P3 obelisks, in my opinion. You're reliant on that one guy not making a bad call 4 times in a row - if he does, you get fucked and start over. But even then, I think that's fair enough for a mythic end boss that there's a very slow, entirely dodgeable 1 shot mechanic. That you effectively have to put the pressure of doing so on 1 dude because it's not reasonable to expect everyone else to perform the other mechanics AND find a safespot at the same time is just annoying (and it'd be a lot more reasonable if it drew lines on the arena while it was charging up so people could do so for themselves, but then, it'd also be a guaranteed 1 shot as there's ZERO mechanical differences between heroic and mythic, apart from getting 1 extra fire-orb per darkness-cycle).

No, it's your boasting i was talking about and it's still something you do here.
It's fine though but if you use wording such as that be ready for some snarky comments being tossed your way.

I do agree with you that the fights don't actually need more nerfs though but that does not make the fights "easy" to do and the setups you needed befor still makes the fights so much easier. I'm not actually arguing with you on the difficulty but the design of this tier probably made it so that many guilds that used to be able to do mythic just gave up on this one.

So yeah, no nerfs are needed but Blizzard does need to look over how they design the encounters in the future.

[Marrilaife]

That's your experience, we almost one shot it the 2nd time and we got him after only an hour, in the past Mannoroth was harder to rekill than Archimonde and for us Avatar is worst to rekill than KJ.

That's absolutely subjective. For example my guild 1-shot Avatar on first rekill, but still can go 10+ wipes on Maiden because that 1 tunnel vision guy stood in wrong spot. KJ one week was done in 5 pulls rekill, another we struggled 2 days because we had more trials in and some key people couldn't attend.

Maiden is the most stupid boss to rekill in a manner you can rekill mistress or avatar now even with several cases of sloppy play just due to players' power level increases. Maiden is never a dps check but always a "pay attention" check and lots of people go into "lol it's farm" blindfold mode after progress is over. Depends from guild to guild.

[Menox]

I think another nerf wouldn't be unreasonable, but probably won't happen. Just give the guilds who are close that last little bit they need imo. My guild pulled out all the stops and killed him this past week, it took us about 100 more attempts than any other boss that we have fought the past two expansions. There's 1 week left and in the US it is a busy holiday week. If they make maybe the last phase easier, say remove a pillar or reduce the damage from pillars, guilds already working on it who are close and may not have a good raid day schedule this week can get it done, but guilds who haven't started really wouldn't have a shot at a 'faceroll' boss due to a straight HP nerf. He sucks, I hope everyone progressing on the last phase can kill him in time.

[vorchun]

That's fucking horseshit. The main difference between top 100 and top 300 is the amount of hours we put into the game, not how well we play.

That's fucking horseshit and you know it. Main difference between top 100 guilds and top 500 is exactly how well they play. It's hard to imagine Method wiping due to derping melee not soaking small armageddons right under the boss or the same huntards/dks flying away on singularities or same retards not spreading fast enough on eruptions or whatever silly reasons to wipe on KJ there are, right? But these reasons account for, I'd say, at least 50% of our wipes. Meaning my guild is 50% less efficient than Method and it has nothing to do w/ amount of hours we put into the game but it has everything to do w/ personal skill and awareness.

[Emerald Archer]

The fight is no longer difficult. Everything that's bad has been nerfed one way or another. There's no more obvious nerfs left to do - plenty of guilds already stop DPS for ages (or find themselves pushing before the second DPS adds) because of HP nerfs.

Simply put, "Nah". Dudes on par with most other nerfed end bosses at this stage. No nerfs needed. If you can't get him this last week, you weren't good enough.

I mean there is, reduce the number of small soaks by 1 or 2 , that's actually a notable nerf.

The fight is very very easy compared to how it originally was, but it isn't a joke. Guilds who have killed it 8+ times, still can wipe on it, for potentially hours. I don't think it needs much, but reducing the small soaks would be a nice spot to place a nerf, that doesn't make a huge impact, but still a notable one.

Or a 5% hp nerf, and just let lower dps guilds push before the 2nd dps adds.

Nerfs definitely aren't needed, it's fair that the fight be as is, but It's not a joke still. It hasn't been pushed to that point, where it's too easy. I'm sure if the nerfs were too big, it could be, it's close, but I don't think a 5% hp nerf, or a small soak reduction would push it past that point.

[Temp name]

The only thing I'd personally change is that a single small Armageddon going through should not be an instant wipe. It should hurt like fuck and make you regret it, but it should be survivable. My guild (is shit, yes) has had a couple attempts where we just missed one because.. People are idiots, and then we're just fucked instead of being able to still push a bit.

[Deleted]

Your issue is that you're comparing KJ over the past 5 months to other end bosses over the past 5, instead of comparing the *current* version of KJ to what the end bosses looked like "at the end". KJ being badly tuned to start with doesn't warrant nerfing him further than other end bosses have been in the past to make up for it.

No, I'm not. I'm saying KJ at the end is the hardest boss at the end of the last 2 expansions without a doubt.

That's fucking horseshit. The main difference between top 100 and top 300 is the amount of hours we put into the game, not how well we play. Archi in particular had many "instant wipe"-mechanics (run too early with the bonds, run into wrong group with your mark, place an obelisk on top of another obelisk etc). It just isn't as fresh and as the fight went from 12 minutes to 6 minutes, people started seeing it less and less, to the extent where you never actually saw wipes happen to it in the end.

Totally disagree here. Obviously if you have the same skill and ilevl, raid time is what makes the difference. But between a top 100 guild and a top 300 or top 600 there is still a lot of difference when it comes to personal skill. 4 days raiding is pretty much the more common raiding time, yet you have a lot of top 100 that raid 4 days, a lot of top 300 that raid the same time, and even a lot of top 700 barely gettin CE that raid the same. Wanna know why? Personal skill.
And this especially works in a raid like TOS, where personal mistakes have been more punishing than in any other raid ive ever done. Obviously when you're in a guild that wants to go for CE, you dont expect many mistakes from people, but unless you're method mistakes will happen still. And theres a HUGE difference in a guild where everyone makes a single mistake per night, and one where only half raiders make that mistake. That difference in a fight like FA/KJ is especially huge since so many single things can lead to wipe.

Also, i really think no one here will agree to say that Archi at the end was as hard as KJ. I remember Archi... took us 4 months and half to kill it (but HFC had more bosses, so it did take us less time than KJ), but i also remember pugging it in mythic 2 weeks after cross realm opened (which was in november and HFC opened end of june) with friends on openraid, and archi was MUCH easier after 5 months than KJ is now. If u took few arcane/balance p1 was a total joke, yes you could wipe to bonds but that happened rather early in the fight.

What makes KJ worse and that you dont get in your head is called STATISTICS. KJ has A LOT MORE things that can lead to an instant wipe pretty much, a LOT more than archi, and what makes it worse is that those things can happen even 10 minutes into the fight. It doesnt take a genius to realize that more things that can cause a wipe means higher chances to wipe, and KJ is full of that.

I guess you've been lucky to be in a guild where people didnt wipe nights and nights due to bad soaking/empowered adds/singularity rng, but numbers say ur wrong. ION guild always got CE, this time they wont. Numbers of people killin KJ even now are lower than any other boss before. Its a fact that KJ even now is harder, if you dont agree we can just agree to disagree, but im sure a whole lot of players disagree with you on this.

[~Valen~]

Blizzard should have rolled out much heavier nerfs months ago. But they are too dumb for this. It is clear that ToS is overtuned crap even after numerous nerfs.

But now it's too late. ToS failed miserably.

Not sure why it failed - because you haven't killed it yet? Must everything be easily killable for a raid to be a success?

Jeez...

[TOM_RUS]

Not sure why it failed - because you haven't killed it yet? Must everything be easily killable for a raid to be a success?

Jeez...

I've killed him today, but I still think it's way overtuned. Difficulty doesn't match reward at all.

[~Valen~]

I've killed him today, but I still think it's way overtuned. Difficulty doesn't match reward at all.

Nor does it define success. I don't see what's wrong with some content being reserved for the best of the best of players. They've already nerfed it to a great extent.

[crysilaero]

Always liked that stacking nerf system they used in the past. Just not to the margin that was used back then.

Example: ICC was nerfed regularly by 5%, up to 30%. Now just replace that with 1% per week, up to 20%, and its fine imo. It would stop the feeling of hitting a wall on many bosses, since you could just do that one later than others do it, but do not feel left out.

On topic though: Would not expect more nerfs. He actually did get many QoL improvements on his abilities to make them more managable and less reliant on randomness.

We still have it. Artifact power + warforged chance

[asil]

Nor does it define success. I don't see what's wrong with some content being reserved for the best of the best of players. They've already nerfed it to a great extent.

The problem is TOS was just a dumpsterfire of a tier. It isn't that KJ is super hard right now, it's that many guilds got fucked over horribly by the roster boss because of how absurdly overtuned some of the bosses were.

We went through over 35 people on mistress progression and we probably won't get KJ now depending on how the next few days go. TOS wouldn't have been so bad if so many encounters weren't designed so poorly.

Avatar was not a fun fight to progress on and KJ is even worse. it's also just really hard to recruit because everyone knows exactly how punishing these bosses are and they don't want to trial into a fight like avatar/KJ.

We have 5 people right now that joined to trial and won't raid until next tier is released simply because they're afraid to trial on KJ. Some of the class requirements were also just stupid, not having a resto shaman on KJ, for example, is pretty cancer. Or not having a blood death knight. Not having these specs makes the fight much harder.

[Gaidax]

That's fucking horseshit and you know it. Main difference between top 100 guilds and top 500 is exactly how well they play. It's hard to imagine Method wiping due to derping melee not soaking small armageddons right under the boss or the same huntards/dks flying away on singularities or same retards not spreading fast enough on eruptions or whatever silly reasons to wipe on KJ there are, right? But these reasons account for, I'd say, at least 50% of our wipes. Meaning my guild is 50% less efficient than Method and it has nothing to do w/ amount of hours we put into the game but it has everything to do w/ personal skill and awareness.

This is bullshit, you kidding even? The difference is first and foremost time. Yes, I'd imagine Method is not packing derps, but they spend insanely massive amount of time splitting and wiping and what not first two weeks.

On the other hand you have guild like ours who raid two nights per week 3 hours each and that's it. We're a bunch of working people with lives and families. If we were 4 bloody nights per week guild and more at progress we'd be frikkin top 100 at the least.

[Xloudman]

The problem with KJ is it's like rag. The gap between the good players at the fight and the bad players is super noticeable. On rag we had a rogue who got hit less by the seeds over the entire course of progression than one of our mages would get hit in a single night. It's the same with knockbacks on KJ with a warlock that can't figure out a^2 + b^2 = c^2 and it's gotten to the point where I actively don't disengage to try and see if there's any reasonable situation where they shouldn't be able to get to the orb, but I can't find one.

[asil]

The problem with KJ is it's like rag. The gap between the good players at the fight and the bad players is super noticeable. On rag we had a rogue who got hit less by the seeds over the entire course of progression than one of our mages would get hit in a single night. It's the same with knockbacks on KJ with a warlock that can't figure out a^2 + b^2 = c^2 and it's gotten to the point where I actively don't disengage to try and see if there's any reasonable situation where they shouldn't be able to get to the orb, but I can't find one.

This is true of many of the bosses in TOS, tbh.

Sisters of the moon is another bad one. Maiden/avatar are bad too. These fights make the mediocre players stick out like a sore thumb, and many guilds this tier ran into a recruitment wall so you end up getting stuck with these players at least until the end of the tier.