Balance the classes. Keep the content the same. Just stop.

[Swalload]

Your problem is you constantly change the meaning of the words you're using, and it's hard to keep up. I inferred, when you said that shadow was a real spec, that it was a spec accepted by the community. Not some fantasy/identity thing. You're using very niche definitions of the words you're using that are not commonly accepted by the community.

I'm not really sure why I'm replying. I'm positive you're just a troll looking to rile people up with controversial ideas and using more personal attacks than defending your positions.

I guess we can call talent pages spec even if they don't make the class SPECIALIZE in anything, which means the word spec loses its meaning. Like the disc page, which doesn't specialize in anything, it's filler talents that are used by holy and shadow, which are 2 real specs with their very clear and obvious identities and fantasy, regardless of how they perform because that's completely irrelevant to what makes a spec.

[Laqweeta]

Play BfA if you want changed classes.

You people lost twice, get over it, suck it up.

[Thimagryn]

You're right, I didn't.

Where did it stab you? What physical ailments do you have from this supposedly so painful experience that you forced yourself through?

Mostly the eyes, reading forum posts from people who think Ferals could actually tank in 1.0. It's pretty painful.

Whatever you want. You just won't be as good as a Warrior tank.

We never were until Wrath of the Lich King. You're such an ignoramous despite all the times I've told you I don't want Hybrid Tax removed.

Being able to max Def and not be RNG'd to death by two unlucky Crushing Blows does not make you as good as or better than a Warrior, but allows you to DO the same content that they can. Giving a Paladin Taunt and better threat gen doesn't make them better than Warriors, but allows them to DO the same content that Warriors can. Why do you even think this is about being as good as Warriors? Again, we had all our tools in TBC and Hybrid Tax still existed. There's no 'modern convenience' here, it's still as brutal and challenging as before. It just removes some of the bullshit preventing what is already possible in the game.

[Swalload]

Mostly the eyes, reading forum posts from people who think Ferals could actually tank in 1.0. It's pretty painful.



We never were until Wrath of the Lich King. You're such an ignoramous despite all the times I've told you I don't want Hybrid Tax removed.

Being able to max Def and not be RNG'd to death by two unlucky Crushing Blows does not make you as good as or better than a Warrior, but allows you to DO the same content that they can. Giving a Paladin Taunt and better threat gen doesn't make them better than Warriors, but allows them to DO the same content that Warriors can. Why do you even think this is about being as good as Warriors?

Because he's been spinning posts around for like 15 pages by demonstrating how fucking idiot he can be all while trying to establish some kind of e-cred as if he knows anything about whatever but running into facts and denying them instead of just saying "oh yeah that's true" and moving on. He's not the sharpest tool in the shed.

[Flarelaine]

That doesn't make it not a PvP spec.

It was PvP for you. It was leveling for me.

[Thimagryn]

It is 'modern convenience' because you didn't have it in Classic.

Then you shouldn't be able to run it on your current operating system because that's a modern convenience. You should also be limited to a 56k connection so you can experience the same lag that existed when you joined Alterac Valley.

See how dumb it sounds? Just because it's true doesn't mean it's good.

Why should Paladins and Druids get TBC convenience while everyone else is stuck with things as they were in Vanilla? Where do we draw the line at "This is too many changes"?

Because Paladins and Druids can already DO the content based on the stats and specs available; yet they will either run into sustainability, threat or RNG issues. Again, what I point out is that it's already in classic. If not, there wouldn't be videos of Feral Tanks being able to tank anything in a raid.

The problem is that the issues I pointed above make it inefficient. Again, this doesn't detract from Warriors being best Tank. It simply makes Feral Druids and Prot Pallies better at tanking the content they can already do as well as the content that they could already do but would have been inefficient due to back-to-back Crushing Blows or requiring DPS not attack for a full 2 minutes due to low threat generation.

Ferals tanking the content is not a modern convenience, and there are guides to Feral tanking in MC. The problem exists that even choosing these tanks to do the content is a pain in the ass for everyone in the raid who has to heal or DPS, making the choice very inefficient compared to a Warrior. That's the main reason why no one would even bother choosing Ferals or Prot; their lack of reliability more than anything. It's not because they can't do the content, but because it's not worth most people's time and effort in making it work smoothly.

If you already admit yourself that Ferals can tank, then why are you so afraid of letting them be uncrushable?

[Mindark]

I guess we can call talent pages spec even if they don't make the class SPECIALIZE in anything, which means the word spec loses its meaning. Like the disc page, which doesn't specialize in anything, it's filler talents that are used by holy and shadow, which are 2 real specs with their very clear and obvious identities and fantasy, regardless of how they perform because that's completely irrelevant to what makes a spec.

Big wall of opinion coming up, I am not passing these statements as fact.
In Vanilla, most "specs" didn't specialize in anything. Classes were mostly pigeon-holed to specific roles/"specs," and the talent trees gave those roles a little bit of flavor. These choices didn't really exist in other games (as far as I recall). Everquest was the biggest competitor at the time, and when I played, didn't have these different paths to go down. Looking back, I can see that WoW was pretty much designed the same. If you rolled a priest, you were a healer. If you rolled a paladin, you were a tanky healer. These talent trees added flavor at best (warriors excluded) to whatever role Blizzard determined your class was destined to fulfill. I think priests are unique in this aspect because they're the only class with two healing trees, and we're trying to make sense of it. Discipline priests didn't exist in Warcraft until WoW. And neither did Shadow. To argue of their fantasy and identity when nothing canonical existed is subjective at best.

To me, the two can largely be summed up as:
Holy - healing throughput
Disc - support

The further you go down one tree, the more of said "identity" (mine assigned above, not your feeling of their identity) the priest takes. Perhaps one could say that these (throughput vs support) are specializations, albeit very lame ones. Aside from that, they are identical in play and design. Being identical in play and design would imply that one (holy) cannot be "correct" (this is my interpretation, I am not saying this is a direct quote from you) or "has identity" while the other (disc) is "wrong" (this is my interpretation, I am not saying this is a direct quote from you) or "has no identity" when there is nothing canonical to back it up. It merely makes it a subjective opinion.

[Vladar]

I dont get it, if you want all classes and specs all being equal why dont you stay on retail and stay away from the classic servers, can someone explain?

[Swalload]

Big wall of opinion coming up, I am not passing these statements as fact.
In Vanilla, most "specs" didn't specialize in anything. Classes were mostly pigeon-holed to specific roles/"specs," and the talent trees gave those roles a little bit of flavor. These choices didn't really exist in other games (as far as I recall). Everquest was the biggest competitor at the time, and when I played, didn't have these different paths to go down. Looking back, I can see that WoW was pretty much designed the same. If you rolled a priest, you were a healer. If you rolled a paladin, you were a tanky healer. These talent trees added flavor at best (warriors excluded) to whatever role Blizzard determined your class was destined to fulfill. I think priests are unique in this aspect because they're the only class with two healing trees, and we're trying to make sense of it. Discipline priests didn't exist in Warcraft until WoW. And neither did Shadow. To argue of their fantasy and identity when nothing canonical existed is subjective at best.

To me, the two can largely be summed up as:
Holy - healing throughput
Disc - support

The further you go down one tree, the more of said "identity" (mine assigned above, not your feeling of their identity) the priest takes. Perhaps one could say that these (throughput vs support) are specializations, albeit very lame ones. Aside from that, they are identical in play and design. Being identical in play and design would imply that one (holy) cannot be "correct" (this is my interpretation, I am not saying this is a direct quote from you) or "has identity" while the other (disc) is "wrong" (this is my interpretation, I am not saying this is a direct quote from you) or "has no identity" when there is nothing canonical to back it up. It merely makes it a subjective opinion.

I understand your point but just because 2 specs play the exact same way doesn't mean that they all have the same identity. The idea is to understand WHY they play the same way.
Imagine someone who never touched WoW and tried to figure out what he would like to play by reading talent pages and abilities of classes before picking one and login in for the very first time. He will check out the priest. Read the shadow talents and instantly understand that it's a made to deal dmg with dark magic and he can transform into something else that makes this type of magic stronger. He will read the holy talents and instantly understand that he will use holy powered light magic that heals people. He will read the disc page and probably be confused because it's a bunch of "reduce mana cost of instant cast" "increase max mana" "wand dmg" etc. Nothing in the discipline page even mention other priest abilities like the heals, but there are talents that increase healing slightly so he will end up thinking it's some kind of hybrid that does a bit of everything and his first thought will probably be "why would I want to heal as disc when holy clearly has more healing improvement talents?" Once he really plays a priest and heals a group he will understand the use of the spirit buff and the mana management talents, those are really good, but all they do is complement holy. Disc doesn't do any "disc stuff". That's why it's not a spec of its own, it's a filler spec during that time in the game.

[Swalload]

I dont get it, if you want all classes and specs all being equal why dont you stay on retail and stay away from the classic servers, can someone explain?

Cuz they want to experience vanilla and lvl 60 raiding as a spec that couldn't be played in raids back then. Which is something they cannot do in retail because 1-60 in retail doesn't really work, even the project 60 and shit are clunky as hell with a bunch of rules and people can clear raids without a real raid because we are so much stronger than we used to be in vanilla, it's not the same at all.

I don't agree with this, I want vanilla to be how it was, but I understand the appeal nonetheless.

[Thimagryn]

And therefore don't need changes, so what's the conversation about again?

It's about pointing out how flagrantly ignorant you are.

Nothing about this is about need changes. What part of optional Classic+ server with balance changes implies anything in regular Classic servers needs to be changed? I've been talking about options from the very beginning, which you've been making ignorant replies on how it'd change the 'Vanilla experience' even though every patch in Vanilla has changed its own experience every time. You've never been able to define what that experience is, you simply regurgitate the same thing .

It's true, we don't need balance changes. It's also true that we don't need Classic servers. We don't need anything, but it doesn't mean we can't have a conversation for what we want.

Your opinion is valid. You made yourself heard. You made your point. Move on?

[Mindark]

I understand your point but just because 2 specs play the exact same way doesn't mean that they all have the same identity. The idea is to understand WHY they play the same way.
Imagine someone who never touched WoW and tried to figure out what he would like to play by reading talent pages and abilities of classes before picking one and login in for the very first time. He will check out the priest. Read the shadow talents and instantly understand that it's a made to deal dmg with dark magic and he can transform into something else that makes this type of magic stronger. He will read the holy talents and instantly understand that he will use holy powered light magic that heals people. He will read the disc page and probably be confused because it's a bunch of "reduce mana cost of instant cast" "increase max mana" "wand dmg" etc. Nothing in the discipline page even mention other priest abilities like the heals, but there are talents that increase healing slightly so he will end up thinking it's some kind of hybrid that does a bit of everything and his first thought will probably be "why would I want to heal as disc when holy clearly has more healing improvement talents?" Once he really plays a priest and heals a group he will understand the use of the spirit buff and the mana management talents, those are really good, but all they do is complement holy. Disc doesn't do any "disc stuff". That's why it's not a spec of its own, it's a filler spec during that time in the game.

When actually explained, what you're saying makes sense to me actually does a good job of conveying your beliefs. We have different views on the fundamentals of what classes and specs are, and that's fine. I can live with that. In most Blizzard games, they do a really poor job explaining how things work (I've recently got to relive this joy with another free Overwatch weekend). It's no doubt the players ran off in a completely different direction than what the developers had intended and were left confused when specs seemed to fall short of their dev intended vs player expected purpose.

[Thimagryn]

And therefore they shouldn't happen. /thread

You want a Classic+ server? Go make a thread about Classic+, this thread isn't about Classic+, this is a thread about OP wanting Classic to be changed.

So shouldn't you go make a thread about Classic staying the same and get out of this one? What are you doing if you're not talking about balancing classes?

I've been contributing this entire time.

[Swalload]

When actually explained, what you're saying makes sense to me actually does a good job of conveying your beliefs. We have different views on the fundamentals of what classes and specs are, and that's fine. I can live with that. In most Blizzard games, they do a really poor job explaining how things work (I've recently got to relive this joy with another free Overwatch weekend). It's no doubt the players ran off in a completely different direction than what the developers had intended and were left confused when specs seemed to fall short of their dev intended vs player expected purpose.

Yeah I remember having a hard time figuring out what I wanted to play when I started. The paladin description kind of made me think it would be a warrior who can heal and buff people. Sure the healing and buffing was there but fighting mobs as any pally spec never felt like a conventional typical warrior at all in vanilla lol. And none of the challenges or weaknesses were described, you had no idea you would find yourself waiting for mana to regen so often as a paladin, just like you would expect of a magician class archetype.

[Thimagryn]

It is equally as contributing to say "No" as it is to talk about the conversation. Why something won't work is entirely on topic.

You didn't give a reason why it won't work. You just said we don't need it. That doesn't mean it doesn't work.

"If it wasn't in classic, it shouldn't be added" doesn't imply anything not working. You've basically said 'I don't want it and because of that, we shouldn't have it'.

[Shmazard]

If they dont keep Classic servers authentic, then private blizzlike vanilla servers will still be a thing, and will be back to step 1. Nostralrius did good, and so did Elysium. No reason to "fix" classic.

[Thimagryn]

If you give Druids defense against Crushing Blows, again, bench the Warrior - Swipe for AoE.

What does this even mean? Crushing Blow comes from big bosses. You're tanking one boss. What does Swipe for AoE have to do with being viable to tanking a single boss?

If you mean using bullshit that you've come up with that has absolutely no realistic application in WoW, then that's not really a reply. Again, you speak out without any actual bit of fact behind any of your statements. Druids and Paladins are already hindered by Hybrid Tax, so why would added Utility make them OP? Adding Def Leather and giving Paladins a taunt didn't make them OP in TBC and Warriors were still on top. Where are you drawing your conclusions from? How can you stand behind these statements when they've never been introduced in Vanilla?

[jackofwind]

I did, several pages ago. I'll get it for you.



- - - Updated - - -



I know exactly what you mean.

You don't seem to get that what you are asking for, is retail. Retail is Vanilla + all of the modern conveniences added to retail.

Many of us have been posting large explanations like that to him and others like him demanding QoL/balance changes over a number of threads, and every single one of them returns with the arguments "it doesn't matter, it would be better", or "I have faith Blizzard could do it."

Honestly it's not even worth bothering at this point.

- - - Updated - - -

What does this even mean? Crushing Blow comes from big bosses. You're tanking one boss. What does Swipe for AoE have to do with being viable to tanking a single boss?

Because Tanks that have AoE threat are inherently far better than tanks who don't. Therefore the Druid tank becomes baseline superior to the Warrior, because the entire thing the Warrior tank brings is tanking stats/gear and shield block. They don't bring utility, they don't bring AoE threat. The same thing goes for Paladins - give them taunt and fix their mana issues and suddenly Warriors are just shit in every way compared to them.

Literally the thing that Warriors had going for them was that they could mitigate Crushing Blows and crits. That's not just what made them better, it's the only thing that made them good.

It's the exact same thing as DPS - make their damage balanced and suddenly all hybrids are miles better than pures. No utility other than CC, no healing, no strong non-personal cooldowns. Elemental Shamans and Shadow Priests can already gib people in PvP and are only limited by mana - their damage output is already on par with pures in fights under 60 seconds on top of all the utility they bring.

Vanilla class design was that hybrid classes, not specs, brought utility. There was a reason for that.

[McNeil]

The only changes classic WoW needs are bug fixes and proper server stability, which were quite an issue back in the days. Start the game at the very beginning and gradually release major patches after enough people have seen the latest content or have at least caught up leveling to 60. Classes should be the same as it was imo but I wouldn't mind seeing trying to balance the numbers. but for the love of God no dumping down or anything.

[Swalload]

You don't seem to get that what you are asking for, is retail. Retail is Vanilla + all of the modern conveniences added to retail.

+TBC+Wrath+Cata+MoP+WoD+Legion+ all the numbers and content changes that happened since then + reworked maps of cata + extra BGs + arenas + all the features that are not QoL + new races + new classes + new available classes per race + new looks + improved graphics + different level requirement per dungeons + and so on.

Retail is a shitload more than just vanilla+modern conveniences. It's not hard to imagine that some people would not want some or many of the things listed above.

I personally want classic to be as close to vanilla as possible, but saying that if people ask for some QoL means all they want is retail is like thinking that if you add spices on your grilled steak it means you don't want steak at all, that makes no sense.