Blood elves, high elves and what could have been

[Garfurion]

The Void Elves however are an allied race, free from the constraints of being a 'normal' race and their distinctiveness comes not from their 'civilization' but from what they did to themselves in imbuing themselves with void magic.

I hope Blizzard will re-think Void Elves origin a bit because at the moment they seem to be more of an organization/group like Death Knights or Demon Hunters defined by their use of magic/abilities rather than a real race. The same is more or less true for Lightforged. Blizzard could just as easily have added Void Gnomes or Lightforged Humans. It feels a bit like every Void Elf will be part Shadow Priest whatever class they are.

Blizzards/Caydiem's original "reasons" for non-playable high elves were a lack of population and a lack of culture which was a weak attempt at a lore explanation. Even Ion's recent remarks echo this line of thought which seem to make no sense compared to other playable (allied) races. Void Elves seem to lack both a population and it's questionable whether they would have a distinct culture. Highvale Elves and Allerian Stronghold Elves have better lore reasons to have developed a distinctly different culture from Blood Elves over time than Void Elves. At least Lightforged have been separated long enough from other Draenei that they could have a different background/culture. They should do something similar for Void Elves, push their separation from High/Blood/Night Elves back in time so they have a reason to have developed a unique culture. The could base Void Elves on the High Elves corrupted in Lordaeron when they arrived from Kalimdor or Allerian Stronghold Elves who got into contact with Talonpriest Arakkoa in Outland.

[Obelisk Kai]

I hope Blizzard will re-think Void Elves origin a bit because at the moment they seem to be more of an organization/group like Death Knights or Demon Hunters defined by their use of magic/abilities rather than a real race. The same is more or less true for Lightforged. Blizzard could just as easily have added Void Gnomes or Lightforged Humans. It feels a bit like every Void Elf will be part Shadow Priest whatever class they are.

Blizzards/Caydiem's original "reasons" for non-playable high elves were a lack of population and a lack of culture which was a weak attempt at a lore explanation. Even Ion's recent remarks echo this line of thought which seem to make no sense compared to other playable (allied) races. Void Elves seem to lack both a population and it's questionable whether they would have a distinct culture. Highvale Elves and Allerian Stronghold Elves have better lore reasons to have developed a distinctly different culture from Blood Elves over time than Void Elves. At least Lightforged have been separated long enough from other Draenei that they could have a different background/culture. They should do something similar for Void Elves, push their separation from High/Blood/Night Elves back in time so they have a reason to have developed a unique culture. The could base Void Elves on the High Elves corrupted in Lordaeron when they arrived from Kalimdor or Allerian Stronghold Elves who got into contact with Talonpriest Arakkoa in Outland.

Look the flat truth is they don't want to give you High Elves and the reason they don't want to give you High Elves is, as Ion said, because High Elves are already playable.

Everything else we discuss, the lore, the population, who did what or when, it's all ultimately irrelevant. We have complicated this debate beyond all reason. It's very, very simple. They won't introduce the same race twice.

The Void Elves exist because they heard the demand but they STILL won't give you High Elves, but they gave you the model with a twist. The Void Elves have shut this debate down, they aren't going to give the model out for a third time.

As for changing the origin, it's way too late. The quests have been constructed, both in the upcoming 7.3.5 patch and the expansion. Voice acting has likely been recorded. The hints have already been sown that it is the Sunreavers who imbibe the void kool aid. The development pipeline is unstoppable. They couldn't change it now even if they wanted to, it would cause too much of a knock on effect on everything else they are developing. That is how game development works, task after task is completed and passed on to the next team.

They aren't 'stopping the presses' so to speak to cater to this extremely niche desire. The Void Elves are exiled Blood Elves, who are (as confirmed by Ion) High Elves anyway.

You should accept that this is the way it is going to be but you cannot expect any change now.

[Deleted]

Look the flat truth is they don't want to give you High Elves and the reason they don't want to give you High Elves is, as Ion said, because High Elves are already playable.

Why did they give us playable Blood Elves in the Alliance then?

You should accept that this is the way it is going to be but you cannot expect any change now.

Well, if this is accepted and everyone will be quite about this, then sure there will be no change, just like you want.

[Obelisk Kai]

Why did they give us playable Blood Elves in the Alliance then?



Well, if this is accepted and everyone will be quite about this, then sure there will be no change, just like you want.

Do we really have to dance on the head of a pin here?

Nobody is claiming they gave the Horde Night Elves, we got Nightborne.

You are getting corrupted High/Blood Elves whose base form is going to look like a vampire and whose combat form a pointy eared shadow. They've changed just enough to be distinctive.

As for expecting no change, what I meant was no change to this facile notion you can petition Blizzard to change the lore of the Void Elves so they originate from the Silver Covenant rather than Aethas's Sunreavers or some other Blood Elf group.

It is far, far too late for that. Quests have been written, built and are active on some test realms somewhere. Voiceovers recorded. The people responsible for making quests and doing voiceovers are now doing other things.

The course is set. It cannot be changed.

[Dagoth Ur]

Y'know, if it weren't always female elf with male human, I don't think I'd mind all this so much. Male elf with female human isn't something that's been done, to my knowledge, in any major fantasy franchise.

I remember in Rise of the Lich king book that Kael was really into Jaina. Not sure if that counts as male elf x female human romance, but Blizz certainly thought about it. If she knew Arthas is gonna turn into total nutjob, maybe poor Kael would have gotten a chance!

[Koryn123]

I remember in Rise of the Lich king book that Kael was really into Jaina. Not sure if that counts as male elf x female human romance, but Blizz certainly thought about it. If she knew Arthas is gonna turn into total nutjob, maybe poor Kael would have gotten a chance!

Eh, I wouldn't call it a romance because Jaina never felt the same way about Kael'thas. She admired him, but never looked at him as a viable partner, due to his station, age, magical talent, etc. He was just too much for her, while Arthas felt more natural.

So in that case, that could also have been written by an elf who has a cuckold fetish and was like "yeeeehhh, turn down that elf, that's right, you only like humans, yeeeehhh"

[Zarc]

Blood Elves and Void Elves are both factions of the High Elven race. Blood Elves and Void Elves are "races" only in terms of gameplay, not in terms of lore. In the lore they are factions, whose members are High Elves. Blizzard should change the in-game description of the races to make this abundantly clear and end any confusion about this, I think that would greatly ease the minds of those of us who wants to be able to play as High Elves, as it would clarify that we already can.

That being said, it would be cool to have High Elves that were not exposed to fel magic (Blood Elves) or infused by shadow magic (Void Elves) as a playable "race" option for the Alliance. Much the same as it would be cool to have Orcs that were not exposed to fel magic (Mag'har Orcs) as a playable "race" option for the Horde. There is no confusion that green-skinned Orcs (those exposed to fel magic) and brown-skinned Orcs (that were never exposed to fel magic) are both part of the Orc race, the same should be true for High Elves. Mag'har Orcs will certainly be added as a "race" option for the Horde at some point, but that will be a "race" for gameplay purposes. In the lore they will both be Orcs in terms of race, as is abundantly clear to everyone right now.

[Deleted]

Do we really have to dance on the head of a pin here?

Nobody is claiming they gave the Horde Night Elves, we got Nightborne.

You are getting corrupted High/Blood Elves whose base form is going to look like a vampire and whose combat form a pointy eared shadow. They've changed just enough to be distinctive.

There is nothing distinctive about Void Elves when they wear an armor. Same old Blood Elves, even Ion said that they are basically Blood Elves. The Devs actually confirmed that they changed them a bit because of 'rule of cool' but it all doesn't matter when in game they will be indistinguishable from Blood Elves.

[Obelisk Kai]

There is nothing distinctive about Void Elves when they wear an armor. Same old Blood Elves, even Ion said that they are basically Blood Elves. The Devs actually confirmed that they changed them a bit because of 'rule of cool' but it all doesn't matter when in game they will be indistinguishable from Blood Elves.

Well I never said I was happy about the Alliance getting the models but here we are. The point is, they aren't High Elves...not even really Blood Elves anymore.

Besides, we don't know exactly HOW Blizzard will portray their shadow form with armor on. Alleria's void form changed the texture and appearance of her armor as well as her skin and that is the prototype of the void form they'll have in combat.

I reckon they'll end up being pretty distinctive.

- - - Updated - - -

Blood Elves and Void Elves are both factions of the High Elven race. Blood Elves and Void Elves are "races" only in terms of gameplay, not in terms of lore. In the lore they are factions, whose members are High Elves. Blizzard should change the in-game description of the races to make this abundantly clear and end any confusion about this, I think that would greatly ease the minds of those of us who wants to be able to play as High Elves, as it would clarify that we already can.

That being said, it would be cool to have High Elves that were not exposed to fel magic (Blood Elves) or infused by shadow magic (Void Elves) as a playable "race" option for the Alliance. Much the same as it would be cool to have Orcs that were not exposed to fel magic (Mag'har Orcs) as a playable "race" option for the Horde. There is no confusion that green-skinned Orcs (those exposed to fel magic) and brown-skinned Orcs (that were never exposed to fel magic) are both part of the Orc race, the same should be true for High Elves. Mag'har Orcs will certainly be added as a "race" option for the Horde at some point, but that will be a "race" for gameplay purposes. In the lore they will both be Orcs in terms of race, as is abundantly clear to everyone right now.

I'll say it again. If they were EVER going to give the Alliance High Elves, it would have been when they announced Allied races and they wouldn't have created Void Elves because they wouldn't have needed to.

Yes, Mag'har Orcs are coming. I look forward to them.

High Elves aren't coming because they are already here. That 'faction' of High Elves, the Blood Elves, happens to constitute the vast majority of the race. They are already playable.

Now that the Alliance finally has the model, why not suggest some Allied races you stand a chance of getting. Like Night Elf Worgen. Or Mecha Gnomes.

Why are people still talking about High Elves when Mecha Gnomes aren't a thing?

[Deleted]

Well I never said I was happy about the Alliance getting the models but here we are. The point is, they aren't High Elves...not even really Blood Elves anymore.

So do you take Ion's words into account or not? He flat out said, they are High Elves and Blood Elves. They are the same. Identical.

[Obelisk Kai]

So do you take Ion's words into account or not? He flat out said, they are High Elves and Blood Elves. They are the same. Identical.

I accept Ion's words. He said High Elves ARE Blood Elves, implying no difference. He then said Void Elves are another flavour of High Elves, implying some difference.

That some is important. It's the reason you got Void Elves at all.

[Garfurion]

Look the flat truth is they don't want to give you High Elves and the reason they don't want to give you High Elves is, as Ion said, because High Elves are already playable.

Everything else we discuss, the lore, the population, who did what or when, it's all ultimately irrelevant. We have complicated this debate beyond all reason. It's very, very simple. They won't introduce the same race twice.

At which point did I ask for High Elves ? I criticized what we know so far about Void Elves in terms of their background/culture/etc. Compared to other races they feel underdeveloped.

The Void Elves exist because they heard the demand but they STILL won't give you High Elves, but they gave you the model with a twist. The Void Elves have shut this debate down, they aren't going to give the model out for a third time.

Again, did I ask for High Elves ? No!, and as for the model I would have preferred an different mesh/model for Void Elves rather than a reskinned copy of the High/Blood Elf model. Nightborne have a different mesh from Night Elves, it would have been nice if they had done something similar for Void Elves.

They aren't 'stopping the presses' so to speak to cater to this extremely niche desire. The Void Elves are exiled Blood Elves, who are (as confirmed by Ion) High Elves anyway.

You should accept that this is the way it is going to be but you cannot expect any change now.

I never expect any change from Blizzard. It doesn't mean I have to agree with everything they do or that I can't have the opinion they should change things.

[Deleted]

I accept Ion's words. He said High Elves ARE Blood Elves, implying no difference. He then said Void Elves are another flavour of High Elves, implying some difference.

No, he never said that.

[deviantcultist]

No, he never said that.

He clearly did in the interview with Jesse.

[Deleted]

He clearly did in the interview with Jesse.

He said something else, Obelisk Kai is misquoting him (and on purpose so that it fits his agenda).

[cmats4020]

One, the allied races apparently don't follow the same lore requirements or whatever a crack elite squad is obviously not 13% of your race, and two, blizzard made it painfully obvious they don't want to do playable high elves.

One, Blizzard never stated this, and obviously an "elite, crack squad" of Blood elves cannot equal 13% of the Blood elven race, but they'd have to in order to equal the number of High elves there are left. Two, Blizzard has never stated this.

from a lore standpoint they offer nothing other than the ruined, broken dream of what High elves once were

And what's so wrong with this? They still have two major lore characters at their backing (Vereesa and Alleria), and this could very well change. Lore development can still clearly be made for them as they've been present and active in every expansion (except for WoD).

hell if anything the blood elves now are more aligned with the light/ what Quel'thalas used to be than the High elven exiles ever wer.

Then make the Void elves former High elves. The lore wouldn't be so awfully contrived, and it would have appeased the High elf proponents.

to give the dumb model to the Alliance

This isn't even why High elves are wanted. Yeah, some people want High elves on the Alliance for this very reason, but I can speak for the majority when I say that the model is not the main reason for their advocation.

[Obelisk Kai]

No, he never said that.

He said something else, Obelisk Kai is misquoting him (and on purpose so that it fits his agenda).

I am used to High Elf fans trying to twist what the devs say. We argued for years about Caydiem's blue post after all with multiple pro High Elf posters trying their damndest to discredit it on the basis it was too old. Or the Encyclopedia. Or the Loreology tweet confirming the encyclopedia is still canon.


But even I am agog at the fact you are denying what Ion said JUST TWO AND A HALF WEEKS AGO. Not even saying his words are misinterpreted, but flat out denying he said them.

'High elves? Spoilers guys Blood elves pretty much High elves, Void elves are also pretty much another flavor of high elves."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkdT...tu.be&t=17m59s

So just to reiterate what Ion said, in plain english, High Elves=Blood Elves. Void Elves are another flavour.

To use an ice cream metaphor, if the quel'dorei are ice cream then High and Blood Elves are both vanilla and the Void Elves are blueberry flavour. But all still ice cream.

One, Blizzard never stated this, and obviously an "elite, crack squad" of Blood elves cannot equal 13% of the Blood elven race, but they'd have to in order to equal the number of High elves there are left. Two, Blizzard has never stated this.

Why would the Void Elf numbers have to equal the number of remaining High Elves? Remember it wasn't those against High Elves being playable who came up with the population argument. It was Blizzard themselves. We just ran with it. In the same interview above, Ion even reiterates the population issue for High Elves a full 13 years after Caydiem talked about it. But Void Elves have been described as a crack squad of elite special forces. I have never heard of a crack squad that consists of one in every eight or nine people. Clearly the population issue is for High Elves and High Elves alone, likely because they can't sustain a separate, distinctive existence. The Void Elves get around the population argument because they are distinctive.

And what's so wrong with this? They still have two major lore characters at their backing (Vereesa and Alleria), and this could very well change. Lore development can still clearly be made for them as they've been present and active in every expansion (except for WoD).

Alleria is now a Void Elf. And Veressa looks like she will be leaving the story shortly courtesy of a bushel full of arrows in the back. In fact, I would wager there is a good chance the story will unfold like this.

1.) Aethas Sunreaver and his Sunreavers experiment with void energy and get kicked out of Silvermoon when they refuse to stop.
2.) Veressa dies at the burning of Teldrassil. The circumstances of which are highly debated right now. Blizzard implied that there is more to it's destruction than just the Horde being EVVILL. It certainly wasn't something that would cause the other races of the Horde to turn on Sylvanas, which if it was an act of evil you'd expect. This is an magnitudes worse than Theramore after all. And if the burning of Teldrassil is disputed, it might mean the High Elves are conflicted. Especially if they feel the death of Veressa was the fault of the Alliance more than the Horde.
3.) Alleria brings the Sunreavers, the Void Elves, a group infinitely worse than the Blood Elves during their fel days ever were, into the Alliance. The High Elves are outraged. Can the High Elves and the Silver Covenant remain with the Alliance when they tolerate abominations such as the Void Elves? No.
4.) The Silver Covenant departs the Alliance and is pardoned by Lor'themar Theron to rejoin Quel'thalas. The SC is now Horde, the Sunreavers are now Alliance (blizzard does this sort of thing all the time, if one side gains or loses something then something is gained or lost in parallel by the other. And the opposite of the Sunreavers is the Silver Covenant). The SC being in the Horde is used as justification to give Blood Elf players an option for blue eyes once enhanced customization comes in.

Then make the Void elves former High elves. The lore wouldn't be so awfully contrived, and it would have appeased the High elf proponents.

It's far too late for that. The lore for the Void Elves has already been seeded in game, I'd bet my eye tooth that that is what is meant by Aethas' conversation with Khadgar on the Vindicaar. Everything is written months in advance and fed into a pipeline that churns out the quests, the assets for the quests, the voice acting that has to be recorded. At this point they simply can't stop everything to make such a change. Patch 7.3.5 will be on the PTR next week I imagine, and it'll progress the story of some Blood Elves becoming Void Elves even further.

This isn't even why High elves are wanted. Yeah, some people want High elves on the Alliance for this very reason, but I can speak for the majority when I say that the model is not the main reason for their advocation.

Well...tough. If Blizzard was ever going to give you unadulterated High Elves they would have done so when they announced Allied Races and not bothered to create Void Elves. I said often they would never give you a carbon copy of the Horde's most popular race. Void Elves are too close for comfort, but their 'emo' appearance coupled with them being an evolutionary dead end (does anyone expect a civilization of happy Void Elf families with Void Elf babies? I doubt it) means they have no future in lore beyond WoW. And with the story possibly setting the scene for the departure of the High Elves from the Alliance (lot of Blood Elf players would like a blue eye option after all), maybe we can finally draw a line under this debate.

[Zulkhan]

He said something else, Obelisk Kai is misquoting him (and on purpose so that it fits his agenda).

It's embarassing how you keep dancing around the point.

"Spoilers guys: High Elves are pretty much Blood Elves"

"Void Elves are another flavour of High Elves"

He said the first in direct response to "Are High Elves a potential thing in the future?" and through the second sentence he hilariously confirmed Blood Elves to literally be High Elves by saying Void Elves are "another flavour of High Elves" even though they're technically Blood Elves.

[Garfurion]

'High elves? Spoilers guys Blood elves pretty much High elves, Void elves are also pretty much another flavor of high elves."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkdT...tu.be&t=17m59s


So just to reiterate what Ion said, in plain english, High Elves=Blood Elves. Void Elves are another flavour.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary "pretty much" is not the same as identical.

Ion tends to be quite precise in his choice of words but he didn't literally say "Blood Elves are High Elves".

He may have meant "Blood Elves are to all intends and purposes High Elves" but he left some room for speculation. Especially if you take the the second statement into account:

"Void elves are also pretty much another flavor of high elves".

If we assume he deliberately used the words "also" and "another" then he didn't mean:

"Void Elves are a flavor of High Elves"

Both "also" and "another" refer back to a previous statement.

To me it seems "also" means "just like Blood Elves" and "another flavor" refers to a "flavor of High Elves" that must have been mentioned previously which in this case can only mean "Blood Elves".

So taken literally Ion his first statement "Blood Elves are pretty much High elves" could be understood as "Blood Elves are a flavor of High Elves very similar to the original but not identical".

I'm not a native English speaker so if I could be wrong but "also" and "another flavor of High Elves" have to refer to something and to me it seem they can only refer back to Blood Elves.

[Captain Douchebag]

He said something else, Obelisk Kai is misquoting him (and on purpose so that it fits his agenda).

At 18:16. Nice try though.