Making room for the Necromancer class

[Wildberry]

My question was, gonna quote now, "So?" End quote.

Your initial point got completely blown out. That's the "so." Are you incapable of reading implications? I mean identifying the "so what?" in text is a pretty basic reading comprehension skill. So we're at a point now where you're either failing at that, or trying desperately to get away from the fact that your argument got dismantled.

The vanguard is where the cannon fodder goes. That's why It's called cannon fodder, it's the first thing in front of the cannon.

Yeah, the Second Highest ranking member of the Scourge is cannon fodder.

[Hitei]

The vanguard is where the cannon fodder goes. That's why It's called cannon fodder, it's the first thing in front of the cannon.

You need to stop using the word vanguard, because you clearly have zero idea what it actually means.

A vanguard by definition isn't cannon fodder, because cannon fodder isn't going to take forward points.

Here are some examples of vanguards:

The armored panzer divisions used by the germans in WW2 to steamroll enemy forces.
The US Army Rangers, the elite forces used in initial advancements.
The Scouts and Cavalry of the Roman legions, who took forward positions in front of the advancing army.

Cannon fodder goes in your main forces (Hm, I wonder why Icecrown is literally covered in ghouls and skeletons), the vanguard are your strongest, easy to deploy forces you send off to take a point and set up shop for the rest of your army.

Also, what a lovely way to try and completely ignore all the other points I mentioned while still being completely wrong.

[Rhamses]

The main issue with the Necromancer concept is that Warlocks take its function, and DKs take its theme.

Warlocks can summon hordes of minions, manipulate life energies, summon cauldrons, steal power from its minions, give power to its minions, cripple targets, etc.

DKs utilize the theme of the Necromancer, and summon and control undead minions to serve it. As @Drilnos said, DK is like a super Necromancer, so why would we want a regular Necromancer when we have a super Necromancer?

Also as was said earlier in this thread; If you need to manipulate multiple classes for your pet class concept to work, your class concept shouldn't be implemented.

[Darktbs]

DKs utilize the theme of the Necromancer, and summon and control undead minions to serve it. As @Drilnos said, DK is like a super Necromancer, so why would we want a regular Necromancer when we have a super Necromancer?

Not really in the mood to discuss this topic.But no, Death Knights aren't super Necromancers or advanced stage.That would be the Lich.

In terms of Necromancy it would be the Necromancer that is the superior in the relation since Dks implement Necromancy in their combat skills while Necromancers focus only on the Magic arts itself.There is a reason why Necromancers teach Death Knights necromancy and not the other way around.

[Rhamses]

Not really in the mood to discuss this topic.But no, Death Knights aren't super Necromancers or advanced stage.That would be the Lich.

You do understand that the Lich hero was incorporated into the DK as well right? Death and Decay and Chains of Ice are Lich spells. Old school DK even had a spell called Lichborne in its Frost tree.

Unlike base Necromancers, DKs incorporate multiple aspects of Necromancy.

[Wildberry]

Necromancy.

Chains of Ice

Please tell me you don't still think this. It was embarrassing last time around.

The main issue with the Necromancer concept is that Warlocks take its function, and DKs take its theme.

Yes, there are no functional or thematic overlaps that currently exist already. Priest and Paladin? Enh, Rogue, DH, Monk? Feral Rogue? etc...

Warlocks can summon hordes of minions, manipulate life energies, summon cauldrons, steal power from its minions, give power to its minions, cripple targets, etc.

Lmao, what?

DKs utilize the theme of the Necromancer, and summon and control undead minions to serve it. As @Drilnos said, DK is like a super Necromancer, so why would we want a regular Necromancer when we have a super Necromancer?

DKs aren't "super Necromancers" and you really don't want to align yourself with the guy who spent all of last page getting all of his arguments shredded.

[Darktbs]

You do understand that the Lich hero was incorporated into the DK as well right? Death and Decay and Chains of Ice are Lich spells. Old school DK even had a spell called Lichborne in its Frost tree.

Unlike base Necromancers, DKs incorporate multiple aspects of Necromancy.

And Warlocks having Immolation and Meta made then Dhs.

Also, is really strange having a spec supossely based around the Lich(frost) but the Ultimate spell of the Lich is not among the Frost Dk spells but rather on the OTHER two specs.

"Unlike Base necromancers"?
Im sorry but do you have some official Necromancer concept that you are not sharing with us mere mortals?

[baskev]

The necromancer class - if it ever comes - will surely consist on summoning armies of dead against your enemy.

Of course we already have Demonology class as the "summon" spec and we already have Unholy DK as the "army of the dead" spec.

These specs should be revamped.

- Demonology will go back to its roots and consists of the warlock doing demonic spells.

- The Unholy Death Knight will also go to its roots in WCIII and consist of a DoT melee spec that spreads illnesses. No more raising the dead, that will be left to the Necromancer as it has always been.

The obvious specs of the necromancer are:

- The "summon" spec where you keep summoning an army of dead to attack the enemy, just like Demonology is actually.

-The plague spec where you kill your enemies with plagues. I know it already overlaps the DK but so does destruction and fire mage, or frost mage and DK. The difference is always that one is a caster and the other is a melee spec. This also happens with Demonology and Demon Hunters. Again, in one you are commanding the power, in other you are the power.

I would go as far as giving the necromancer a third spec, a healing spec based on Blood.

Nope....just because the things you name are already baked into other classes. And i see a class like void sooner.

But lets entertain your idea.

i think the classes will be:

Summoner: This is a melee class that summons minions. Just like a demonology warlock. Skeletons that rise for a short time. With different kind of skeletons or gollums depending on talents etc. Think a necromancer from diablo 2 and 3 combined.

Harbinger: A ranged class. Slows and roots. Think of Maltheal's forces in diablo 3. A mix of dots like locks, mage or moonkins. With maybe 2 hard hitting mage like spells. And some of the death knights life cursing stuff.

Lifeshaper: a class that heals. Cast spells that steal life and heal you/friends. Think of it like this. You have some normal healing spells. A big aoe 3 min cooldown called last rite's. Witch is a tranq like ability. With the more damage taken the more it heals. And it has like a beacon on a target. And you can cast damage spell on a enemy..and the beacon will be healed for it.

They would wear mail.
and uses all weapons except for shields, bows etc.

[Rhamses]

Yes, there are no functional or thematic overlaps that currently exist already. Priest and Paladin? Enh, Rogue, DH, Monk? Feral Rogue? etc...

Priests don't fulfill the exact same role and purpose as a Paladin. Druids don't fulfill the exact same role and purpose as Rogues.

A Necromancer would essentially do exactly what a Warlock does.

Lmao, what?

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=29893/create-soulwell

DKs aren't "super Necromancers" and you really don't want to align yourself with the guy who spent all of last page getting all of his arguments shredded.

That's exactly what they are. They incorporated the Lich hero and the Necromancer unit from WC3.

- - - Updated - - -

And Warlocks having Immolation and Meta made then Dhs.

Also, is really strange having a spec supossely based around the Lich(frost) but the Ultimate spell of the Lich is not among the Frost Dk spells but rather on the OTHER two specs.

Just FYI, the Frost trainer in Archerus is a Lich. AFAIK, Warlocks never had a DH trainer.

Additionally, you can't possibly not understand that just because the Frost spec currently can't use D&D suddenly means that the entire basis of the spec somehow no longer matters.

"Unlike Base necromancers"?
Im sorry but do you have some official Necromancer concept that you are not sharing with us mere mortals?

http://classic.battle.net/war3/undea...romancer.shtml

Base Necromancer.

[Wildberry]

Priests don't fulfill the exact same role and purpose as a Paladin. Druids don't fulfill the exact same role and purpose as Rogues.
A Necromancer would essentially do exactly what a Warlock does.

Define what a Warlock does, then define what you believe a Necromancer to do.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=29893/create-soulwell

Are you seriously trying to pass off Soulwells as Cauldrons? You're joking right? I refuse to believe anyone can be this stupid.

That's exactly what they are. They incorporated the Lich hero and the Necromancer unit from WC3.

Interesting, I seem to have missed the part where Death Knights have cripple, raise two skeletons consistently, and summon skeletal casters. I also don't seem to remember DKs having Frost Nova, Frost Armor and Dark Ritual.

It's almost like there are still distinctions to be drawn here!

[Rhamses]

Define what a Warlock does, then define what you believe a Necromancer to do.

Dark/Evil caster that is shunned by society, Summons minions to fight for it, drains life from targets, manipulates life energies to empower itself, empowers minions, takes power from minions, cripples enemies with shadow magic, summons cauldrons to pull power from, etc.

Are you seriously trying to pass off Soulwells as Cauldrons? You're joking right? I refuse to believe anyone can be this stupid.

https://magic.wizards.com/sites/mtg/...rpgeTTo_EN.jpg
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...7326&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...2065&type=card

In most RPGs, the character summons a cauldron, and your party pulls an item from it. That's exactly what Soulwell does.

Interesting, I seem to have missed the part where Death Knights have cripple,

Went to Warlocks.

raise two skeletons consistently,

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=194916/all-will-serve

I also don't seem to remember DKs having Frost Nova, , Frost Armor and Dark Ritual.

No, they have Howling Blast instead. Frost Nova and Frost armor went to Mages.

It's almost like there are still distinctions to be drawn here!

Distinctions that are better served as concepts that can be given to DKs in the future instead of creating a half-baked class that is limited by two existing classes.

[Darktbs]

Just FYI, the Frost trainer in Archerus is a Lich. .

Just a side note, Liches are the highest a Necromancer can go, so you just told us that a Necromancer is teaching Death knights, thus negating what you said that Death Knights are Super Necromancers.[/QUOTE]

Additionally, you can't possibly not understand that just because the Frost spec currently can't use D&D suddenly means that the entire basis of the spec somehow no longer matters.

Yes i can, if you take every spell that summon undead from the Unholy spec you can't say they are based off necromancers anymore.If you kept the Diseases and removed the Summoning you will end up with a spec inspired by the abomination and the Meat Wagon.

If you take away the Core spells from the Lich away from the Frost Dk you can't say they are based only on the Lich.You wanna know why?

Because there is another unit from wc3 that also dealt with Frost magic and is way more represented in the Frost Spec than the Lich.

THE FROST WYRM.

F-Dks have talents that allow them to freeze oponents(a core ability from the Frost Wyrm), Breath of Sindragosa and SUMMON:SINDRAGOSA.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/undea...romancer.shtml

Base Necromancer.

Oh this base necromancer...so you were arguing that a non-developed class somehow don't incorporate as many aspects as a full developed class.

[Wildberry]

Dark/Evil caster that is shunned by society, Summons minions to fight for it, drains life from targets, manipulates life energies to empower itself, empowers minions, takes power from minions, cripples enemies with shadow magic, summons cauldrons to pull power from, etc.

So, it's very interesting that you focus on general themes with regard to "dark/evil caster," but drop them in favor of a more broad approach when dealing with minions. The cauldron bit is hilariously stupid, and debunked below (Seriously give up this completely moronic point). It's also hilarious that you're under the impression that entire concepts are satisfactorily explored by a single ability (How many bleeds do we have?)

Would you like to retry this with a bit more consistency?

Went to Warlocks.

Warlocks have cripple? I thought that was the Doomguard?

https://magic.wizards.com/sites/mtg/...rpgeTTo_EN.jpg
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...7326&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...2065&type=card

In most RPGs, the character summons a cauldron, and your party pulls an item from it. That's exactly what Soulwell does.

WoW isn't "most RPGs," Magic the Gathering has no relevance to Soulwells. Get out of here with that utter trash.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=194916/all-will-serve

Interesting, I seem to remember asking about two skeletons, All will serve gives a skeletal archer alongside your ghoul/abomination. Nice job editing the mage part out, by the way.

No, they have Howling Blast instead. Frost Nova and Frost armor went to Mages.

And Dark Ritual?

Distinctions that are better served as concepts that can be given to DKs in the future instead of creating a half-baked class that is limited by two existing classes.

DK has been shrinking, rather than expanding, since its implementation. You can dismiss Necromancers as being "half-baked" if you like, but it's simply not true. Beyond Liches, there are a plethora of themes untouched by either Death Knights or Warlocks, and we've seen no indication that Blizzard is interesting in either class expanding in that direction.

[Rhamses]

Just a side note, Liches are the highest a Necromancer can go, so you just told us that a Necromancer is teaching Death knights, thus negating what you said that Death Knights are Super Necromancers.

You can interpret it that way if you wish, but the point is that we have a Lich teaching Death Knights Necromancy because one of their specs is based on the Frost-based Necromancy of the Lich.

What exactly would you call a class that incorporates and infuses multiple tyoes of Necromancy under one roof?

Oh this base necromancer...so you were arguing that a non-developed class somehow don't incorporate as many aspects as a full developed class.

Um no. I'm saying there's a difference between Necromancers and Lichs.

My further point is that Death Knights incorporate BOTH of those concepts.

[Darktbs]

Distinctions that are better served as concepts that can be given to DKs in the future instead of creating a half-baked class that is limited by two existing classes.

No, they are not, because when you use these disctinctions on a class, you are restricting even more to what that class is about.

You and many more are just seeing the surface of the whole thing, Necros are Dark casters like Warlocks and Summon undead like the Dk.

The problem that this breaking down will leave us with 5 classes:

Casters, 1h/Offhand, 2h, Ranged and dual wielders.

What about the concepts that can be explored more openly in a Necromancer class.

A caster that controls life and Death?

A plague spreader with a gun

A Lich.

The undead units that remain unused from wc3.

The shadowlands that remains unused yet has strong ties to Necromantic magic.

And this are things from the top of my head, we could reaserch other games, histories and such for more ideas.

- - - Updated - - -

You can interpret it that way if you wish, but the point is that we have a Lich teaching Death Knights Necromancy because one of their specs is based on the Frost-based Necromancy of the Lich.

Which negates the point you made that Dks are somehow superior to Necromancers despite being taught by then.

What exactly would you call a class that incorporates and infuses multiple tyoes of Necromancy under one roof?

I don't know, what would you call a class that incorporates and infuses multiple types of Holy magic?

Um no. I'm saying there's a difference between Necromancers and Lichs.

My further point is that Death Knights incorporate BOTH of those concepts.

Despite i already adressing such "similarities" that you didn't even bother to read.

[Rhamses]

So, it's very interesting that you focus on general themes with regard to "dark/evil caster," but drop them in favor of a more broad approach when dealing with minions. The cauldron bit is hilariously stupid, and debunked below (Seriously give up this completely moronic point). It's also hilarious that you're under the impression that entire concepts are satisfactorily explored by a single ability (How many bleeds do we have?)

Are we going to somehow pretend that a Necromancer doesn't fit the exact same role in the game as the Warlock? I mean, the Necromancer is pretty much a carbon copy concept of the Warlock right down to people shunning them and fearing them.

Sure, Feral Druids and Rogues have bleeds, but a Druid is far different than a Rogue in almost every sense. Hell, the Druid spec that plays similarly to the Rogue is a shapeshifting cat that zaps targets with moonbeams.

Warlocks have cripple? I thought that was the Doomguard?

Is there another class that can directly control Doomguards that I'm unaware of?

WoW isn't "most RPGs," Magic the Gathering has no relevance to Soulwells. Get out of here with that utter trash.

The point is that a Soulwell is synonymous to a cauldron, and serves the exact same function that a cauldron could. What's the difference between Necromancer summoning a cauldron that you can get a buff from, and a Warlock summoning a Soulwell that you can take a hearthstone from?

Interesting, I seem to remember asking about two skeletons, All will serve gives a skeletal archer alongside your ghoul/abomination. Nice job editing the mage part out, by the way.

Uh, you can turn your ghoul into a skeleton via a glyph. Viola! You're now commanding two (permanent) skeleton minions.

And Dark Ritual?

A possible DK ability in the future if Blizzard deems it necessary.

DK has been shrinking, rather than expanding, since its implementation.

Really? I don't remember being able to summon Abominations and skeleton archers in WotLK.

You can dismiss Necromancers as being "half-baked" if you like, but it's simply not true. Beyond Liches, there are a plethora of themes untouched by either Death Knights or Warlocks, and we've seen no indication that Blizzard is interesting in either class expanding in that direction.

Isn't that a bit silly to argue when we have no idea what Blizzard intends to do to with DKs in the next expansion?

[Darktbs]

A possible DK ability in the future if Blizzard deems it necessary.
--------------
Isn't that a bit silly to argue when we have no idea what Blizzard intends to do to with DKs in the next expansion?

[Rhamses]

No, they are not, because when you use these disctinctions on a class, you are restricting even more to what that class is about.

You and many more are just seeing the surface of the whole thing, Necros are Dark casters like Warlocks and Summon undead like the Dk.

The problem that this breaking down will leave us with 5 classes:

Casters, 1h/Offhand, 2h, Ranged and dual wielders.

What about the concepts that can be explored more openly in a Necromancer class.

A caster that controls life and Death?

Warlocks do this already.

A plague spreader with a gun

That isn't a Necromancer. That's more in line with a Tinker/Alchemist

A Lich.

DKs cover one portion of it, Frost Mages cover the other portion of it.

The shadowlands that remains unused yet has strong ties to Necromantic magic.

Multiple classes already explore this concept.

And this are things from the top of my head, we could reaserch other games, histories and such for more ideas.

We could, but why wouldn't we use our energies to simply make DKs and Warlocks better and more interesting classes instead of trying to squeeze a Necromancer into the game?

Which negates the point you made that Dks are somehow superior to Necromancers despite being taught by then.

Uh, my point was that we have Lichs teaching DKs Lich-based Necromancy, thus kind of proving the point that DKs incorporate the Lich concept into its general design.

I don't know, what would you call a class that incorporates and infuses multiple types of Holy magic?

That's about as dumb a question as asking what class infuses multiple types of Shadow magic. You do understand that Necromancy is a school within Shadow magic right?

[Socialhealer]

sounds good, blizzard like to gut classes to make room for their fotm pet classes.

this is ele shaman to mages, please take more of my shit and make vanilla great again, heal or gtfo!

after all this is 2005, wait shit it's 2017? nvm seems blizzard are retarded!

[Wildberry]

Are we going to somehow pretend that a Necromancer doesn't fit the exact same role in the game as the Warlock? I mean, the Necromancer is pretty much a carbon copy concept of the Warlock right down to people shunning them and fearing them.

Sure, Feral Druids and Rogues have bleeds, but a Druid is far different than a Rogue in almost every sense. Hell, the Druid spec that plays similarly to the Rogue is a shapeshifting cat that zaps targets with moonbeams.

So if we're getting into that level of specificity with Druids and Rogues, then differentiations between Necromancer and Warlock are easy. After all, Warlocks have nothing to do with the plague/apothecary/alchemist-themes seen in characters like Putricide, right?

Is there another class that can directly control Doomguards that I'm unaware of?

No, it's just really interesting that you'd bring up pet abilities, with the implication that if a pet does X, a PC cannot do X. I seem to recall Warriors and Felguards having Bladestorm/Felstorm respectively. Let's not even get into Hunter pet families. And before you try and wriggle out of this by claiming that names (or different themes, in the case of hunter pets) is enough differentiation, you argue directly below this that since Soulwells and Cauldrons serve (in your mind) the same mechanical function, they overlap. There I saved you the embarrassment, you don't have to stick your neck out to make a bad point now.

The point is that a Soulwell is synonymous to a cauldron, and serves the exact same function that a cauldron could. What's the difference between Necromancer summoning a cauldron that you can get a buff from, and a Warlock summoning a Soulwell that you can take a hearthstone from?

Has anyone ever advocated for Cauldrons to simply be a tangible item that PCs draw buffs from? I haven't seen such suggestions. Every Necromancer pitch that incorporates Cauldrons that I've seen, have drawn inspiration from Plague Cauldrons. You know, those things in EPL that are spreading blight. Most pitches suggest an item that can be placed at a targeted location, which Necromancers would cast DoTs onto for AoE purposes, in the spirit of plague cauldrons. Surely that's a large enough mechanical differentiation from Soulwells...

Uh, you can turn your ghoul into a skeleton via a glyph. Viola! You're now commanding two (permanent) skeleton minions.

So even stretching to cosmetic glyphs like you have, you're still missing the part regarding skeletal mages. Additionally, the "permanent" bit is key there. The Necromancer's skeletons are temporary and expendable.

A possible DK ability in the future if Blizzard deems it necessary.

Any ability for a hypothetical new class could be dismissed this way. It's not an argument.

Really? I don't remember being able to summon Abominations and skeleton archers in WotLK.

No, you were just able to:
-Reanimate yourself
-Desecrate ground
-Sacrifice Minions to Heal
-Summon plagued insects
-Detonate corpses for damage
etc.

Assuming Y>X (and this is true, in the case of Death Knights), 1+X-Y is a net loss.

Isn't that a bit silly to argue when we have no idea what Blizzard intends to do to with DKs in the next expansion?

No, and this isn't an argument. You can dismiss any hypothetical pitch by saying "You don't know what Blizzard plans to do with A, B & C next expansion!" It's un-falsifiable nonsense, and a garbage argument. You're basically claiming an unknown unknown will somehow render Necromancers useless, which is extraordinarily stupid.

Beyond that, we've heard from Blizzard that they don't want any drastic spec changes in BfA. Taking that, in conjunction with what was available on the Blizzcon floor (The only change being Death's Advance [presumably replacing Wraith Walk]), and their track record, it's not too much to make an educated guess.