If The Cataclysm Revamp Never Happened...

[Armourboy]

Yeah but... let's be honest. Sunwell was so difficult that no amount of catch-up was going to save you if you couldn't do BT.

Don't disagree but between that, the regular badge gear, easy PvP gear, and the easy rep grinds with gear it was much easier to get gear in TBC.

[durenas]

Don't disagree but between that, the regular badge gear, easy PvP gear, and the easy rep grinds with gear it was much easier to get gear in TBC.

Relatively so, though I found Zul'Aman to be much better for gear than the token vendors. The vendors always had janky slots like leggings or helmets, whereas everything else was in a raid or dungeon.

[Mormolyce]

The Cata revamp was sorely needed, and did far more good than harm.

And Classic would've happened anyway.

[Armourboy]

Relatively so, though I found Zul'Aman to be much better for gear than the token vendors. The vendors always had janky slots like leggings or helmets, whereas everything else was in a raid or dungeon.

Yeah but most people werent clesring ZA that were all that causal.

[Feel The Power]

For me it was mid-WOTLK when group finder came out. I really didn't like that feature. I went from having multiple groups to run heroics with, having people invite me to raid with them because of my good DPS, to...nobody talking to me anymore. It was sad.

In any case, I do not like group finder because it exchanged social communications with convenience.

Wow, that does sound sad! Especially since group finder wasn't released until WoD! I'll assume you meant LFD.

So, since I am also assuming you were in a guild when LFD happened in Wrath (since you love being social and having interaction) and you had that "good dps", none of your guildies ever ran the LFD together, like most guildies tend to do? They never thought "Oh we should bring along this person that EVERYONE talks to in our guild, we all love him because he has the good dps!"? That's extremely sad to hear! I guess switching guilds or actually joining a guild wasn't an option for whatever reason. That's ok, that's Blizz's fault

It's a real shame they all totally forgot about you and your good dps for raiding as well, especially since LFR didn't come out until Cataclysm and they would have needed to "be social" and assemble a raid. Once again, even if your social communication-loving self wasn't in a guild, you still had lots of "groups" who loved to have you and your good dps run with them...yet, for some reason LFD made them stop talking to you for raid invites. Makes sense! Super duper sad

It all really is a sad story how nobody talked to you anymore after being so popular, and totally does not sound like some uncreative thing you just quick felt the need to make up off the top of your head, just for a chance to complain about a feature that is almost 10 years old.

[Macaquerie]

Gearing up in BC wasn't all that hard, there was a lot of epic crafted gear available initially that was on par with raid drops, and after S3 you could buy the S1 stuff with honor which was really where the whole "welfare epic" term started getting thrown around, if I recall correctly. In Vanilla I distinctly recall still running around wearing some low level quest blues even while actively raiding, and you had more people competing for fewer drops, most of which tended to be poorly itemized anyway. Granted, because the encounters tended to be easier and the tuning wasn't so tight, you didn't really need as much gear and as long as you were playing properly it wasn't too hard to outperform better geared players. Though then again, gear drops have always really been less about performance and more about epeen.

Also, I really wish people would stop bemoaning the death of social interaction in the game. The community in Vanilla and BC was more important to the game sure, but it was also legendarily toxic and there was nonstop bickering and drama, most of it coming from a handful of players who were in top guilds or were otherwise notable. If you weren't one of these people, you would be just as anonymous on your server as you are today, and your interactions would be mostly with guildies and in-game friends just like it is now.

[Vaalyn]

I believe if Cata had never happened and the old original world and quests were available, there would be a much smaller percentage of people calling for Vanilla servers.

[Rurin]

Well I think the distinction is that Vanilla was developed at a time when MMOs were still a niche genre, while BC was created for the massive audience that WoW had accumulated by that time, and so the design approach had to be altered to be more suitable to a larger and more casual player base. The success of the game really changed Blizzard's perspective - Naxxramas felt like a waste of time because only a small percentage of players got to see it, even though in absolute terms it was still many times more people than ever played most MMOs. And I don't fault them for welfare epics, hardcore players in Vanilla were such giant assholes about showing off their loot and rubbing it in the faces of casuals that it only made sense to open that up to more people. Arguably the community is much less toxic these days, since the elitist douchebaggery is mostly just back and forth between top guilds now rather than with the larger mass of players who mostly don't participate in that at all.

This so much

You can already see the toxicity just by reading through these forums

[Detheavn]

Shit poll is shit. But I guess that's kind of a requirement to be posting on this subforum :|

[Zafire]

Wow, that does sound sad! Especially since group finder wasn't released until WoD! I'll assume you meant LFD.

So, since I am also assuming you were in a guild when LFD happened in Wrath (since you love being social and having interaction) and you had that "good dps", none of your guildies ever ran the LFD together, like most guildies tend to do? They never thought "Oh we should bring along this person that EVERYONE talks to in our guild, we all love him because he has the good dps!"? That's extremely sad to hear! I guess switching guilds or actually joining a guild wasn't an option for whatever reason. That's ok, that's Blizz's fault

It's a real shame they all totally forgot about you and your good dps for raiding as well, especially since LFR didn't come out until Cataclysm and they would have needed to "be social" and assemble a raid. Once again, even if your social communication-loving self wasn't in a guild, you still had lots of "groups" who loved to have you and your good dps run with them...yet, for some reason LFD made them stop talking to you for raid invites. Makes sense! Super duper sad

It all really is a sad story how nobody talked to you anymore after being so popular, and totally does not sound like some uncreative thing you just quick felt the need to make up off the top of your head, just for a chance to complain about a feature that is almost 10 years old.

Yes, I meant LFD. I am playing another game right now, sorry.

Ignoring your smart-ass attitude, the only thing I can say is not everyone experiences the same thing you do. Half the people I ran with were not in my guild, no. Shortly after LFD was released I did retain my raiding friends, but when I quit for a few months and came back the people I knew were gone and I had no way of really meeting new people again. LFD was fun for a while, because I could spam heroics and gear up quickly, but after that it wasn't fun anymore. That's just how I felt, and it did make me quit until the first few months after Cata came out.

[roahn the warlock]

There are so many versions of WoW, My favorite happens to be Wotlk. But like anything, change is always bound to happen. Deal with it.

[shadowmatrix]

Cataclysm was the breath of fresh air the old world questing needed, I'm hoping they do the same for Outland at some point.

[Akka]

It's amusing that you're pointing at TBC as the expansion that Blizzard altered their design approach to be more suitable to more casual players. The expansion with nested attunements, insanely difficult bosses that were required to unlock the next tier(Kael and Vashj), and of course the king of all raids, Sunwell, which was seen by less than 1% of the playerbase(if my faulty memory serves me).

Not to add the general difficulty of early TBC hitting players in the face. Even leveling mob in Hellfire were quite a lot tougher than what you would typically encounter outside and dungeons were in a whole other class than Vanilla ones (in fact, heroic dungeons in TBC were a LOT harder than the ones in Cata, despite the latter being supposedly renowned for their difficulty).
TBC only started to change philosophy at the patch 2.2 or 2.3, when they nerfed leveling XP and started to give ilvl 128 items with badges. TBC was in fact MUCH MORE hardcore than Vanilla up to 2.1, and as hardcore up to 2.2.

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This so much

You can already see the toxicity just by reading through these forums

Funny, especially considering so much of the toxicity in these forums comes from the anti-Vanilla trolls.

[RapBreon]

Cataclysm was the breath of fresh air the old world questing needed, I'm hoping they do the same for Outland at some point.

*Audience gasps*

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Not to add the general difficulty of early TBC hitting players in the face. Even leveling mob in Hellfire were quite a lot tougher than what you would typically encounter outside and dungeons were in a whole other class than Vanilla ones (in fact, heroic dungeons in TBC were a LOT harder than the ones in Cata, despite the latter being supposedly renowned for their difficulty).
TBC only started to change philosophy at the patch 2.2 or 2.3, when they nerfed leveling XP and started to give ilvl 128 items with badges. TBC was in fact MUCH MORE hardcore than Vanilla up to 2.1, and as hardcore up to 2.2.

I personally think TBC struck a nice balance between 'hardcore' and accessibility for casuals. It still kept those hardcore elements, while encouraging a bit more participation for those with less time.

Definitely my favourite expac. Why wouldn't I ask for that over a Vanilla server? Simply because it doesn't make sense to start there for me.

[tankbug]

No, I think the gameplay/skill/talent changes contribute a whole lot too.

[Dsc]

It was patch 2.4 that started the decline, and massive bitching. (badges, we don't need no stinking badges, what attunment? ) Arguably 2.4.3 was the beginning of world of noob craft.

Wrath sealed the deal.

[Akka]

I personally think TBC struck a nice balance between 'hardcore' and accessibility for casuals. It still kept those hardcore elements, while encouraging a bit more participation for those with less time.

Honestly, TBC 2.0 to 2.1 was just TOO hardcore. It was especially punishing for mélées (remember the nice 360° cleave that would one-shot you in heroics ?), but even the very first tier had bosses on which Naxx guilds were having a hard time (Gruul was a wall on which most broke their faces, Magtheridon was even more insane).
2.1 stroke the near-perfect balance between challenging and accessible (Karazhan is still to this day my favourite raid, and it's the only one I can remember that I, twice during the x-pack, did three times in a single day and still was asking for more).

Definitely my favourite expac. Why wouldn't I ask for that over a Vanilla server? Simply because it doesn't make sense to start there for me.

TBC was my favourite time, but I was still very frustrated by the PvP and badge gear ruining progression, and I much preferred the sprawling dungeon maps of Vanilla.

[Armourboy]

Cataclysm was the breath of fresh air the old world questing needed, I'm hoping they do the same for Outland at some point.

I hated what they did to the old world and still do. Thankfully I had most of my classes leveled past all of that so I only had to do it a couple of times. Redridge and Westfall are laughably bad imo.

[Akka]

It was patch 2.4 that started the decline, and massive bitching. (badges, we don't need no stinking badges, what attunment? ) Arguably 2.4.3 was the beginning of world of noob craft.

Wrath sealed the deal.

*nods*
Except that 2.4 was less "starting the decline" that "showing it was decline", the telltale signs started from 2.3 or so.

[Armourboy]

*nods*
Except that 2.4 was less "starting the decline" that "showing it was decline", the telltale signs started from 2.3 or so.

It is pretty amazing when you sit down and look at some of this stuff years later just how early some of it started. I personally didn't see it then, I saw it as refinement, but looking back now I can definitely understand how someone who loved the Vanilla experience wouldn't be that happy with TBC and certainly not Wrath.

What's worse is realizing you probably were part of the reason some of this stuff happened, I know I was one of the ones barking about the hybrid tax back then, Warriors being the only raid tank, etc. Makes me shake my head at myself tbh.