Balance the classes. Keep the content the same. Just stop.

[Thimagryn]

Yeah, anything within the range of Vanilla is fair game as far the premise of "Classic WoW" is concerned, what exactly you're going to choose is another debate.

This discussion concerns adding stuff that was never part of any Vanilla patch, that is the fundamental issue.

You can't look at Vanilla Patch X and say "That's the real Vanilla patch" because that's subjective, but which change / feature was part of Vanilla is a different story, it was there or it wasn't.

Blizzard is free to pick any colour from 2004 to 2006, but painting anything beyond that on the wall is simply not part of the deal.

Why is it not part of the deal?

QoL and such that never existed, sure. I agree.

Balance tweaks to make 1.13? I think that deserves more consideration than 'it's not Vanilla'. It wasn't, but it could one that retains the 'Vanilla experience'.

[Mindark]

Why is it not part of the deal?

QoL and such that never existed, sure. I agree.

Balance tweaks to make 1.13? I think that deserves more consideration than 'it's not Vanilla'. It wasn't, but it could one that retains the 'Vanilla experience'.

I wouldn't be against a 1.13 patch (the concept of patching, not necessarily pre-agreeing with the changes put forward in it) as long as:

1) it isn't on launch
2) it's what the actual community playing classic is steering towards (threads like this do not count)

[Emerald Archer]

I'd like to see SOME balancing, extremely minor, no added abilities.

For Prot pallys: Place the consecration talent in the protection line, or ret line, allowing pally tanks to go into better talents, increasing their strength where it should be (in dungeons) and have them remain without taunt, and bad in raids, but good in dungeons. There are a few prot+ret talents that could easily be swapped into the holy tree to replace consecration.

For a large assortment of specs: Heaps of specs were completely useless due to the 8 debuff cap, either not getting to use almost all their abilities, or having to miss a core few, have the cap at 16 from the very start, this will make a lot more specs viable. There's the option of removing the cap all together, but I think this will cause stacking issues, that would make more issues than it solves.

All specs: Have the cost of changing specs scale SLIGHTLY slower, and automatically reset once a month. Or have the scaling remain the same, and have it reset after you haven't changed specs for 1 week.

Outside of these changes, I hope we don't see much, if anything. I would hate to see any addition of abilities that weren't there before.

[Thimagryn]

Dude. Please remember your own posts.

You gave the scenario where the boss is hitting you once every 5 seconds. Why are we now back to 2 second crushing blows back to back when this has nothing to do with the post you're quoting?

Because it's an example and examples aren't perfect? If you had an issue with seconds, why didn't you bring it up? Instead you simply said 'this makes them better than Warriors' which it still doesn't.

You're really going to fault me for creating more practical examples? All the while you're the one suggesting we give boomkins all the mana they need?

You said that healers will still have a harder time healing the druid tank in that scenario, even with the change you suggested where they can only be crushing blow'd once every 5 seconds. Please tell me why a healer would ever have trouble healing someone, even from one health to full health in 5 seconds, in a raid scenario. Please. Stick to the god damned topic for two posts.

Then why don't you argue my intent rather than picking apart the example for all its flaws?

Explain why it's a bad idea for Druids to not be CB'd twice in a row. 'It makes them better than Warriors!' doesn't cut it.

False, because depending who you ask, different things will be considered 'broken'. So I'm asking you - What is 'broken?'

Didn't you say it's up to Blizzard to decide what they do?

You don't want to hear my opinion, you're looking for a reason to strawman all balance tweak suggestions based on my subjective examples. You're already doing it by saying 'Why no one else except Paladins and Druids??'

What's broken is broken, what needs fixes will need fixes. I would at least appreciate a discussion on this to address what is critical and what is simply 'I want to be better'. But that isn't happening. Instead, everyone constructive balance discussion gets derailed by 'We don't want CHANGES' posts.

I know what's wrong with the classes. I'm saying that doesn't make them broken.

Not all wrong things are broken, but broken things are broken. Identifying the ones that need to be fixed will be a good step towards a better game.

Lurk some 1.12 balance threads. Get a gauge on the collective opinion of what is feasible and what isn't. Cross reference with what Blizzard's designers seemingly want the intent of classes to be. That's how we get to the solution.

Just look on the front page about the 2005 Dev Talk on Paladins. There is lots of information about what they intended Paladins to be. 1.12 is a great step towards that goal, but fundamentally still falls slightly short of their own intent. They are great offtanks! But they still aren't in the position they wanted them to be prior to TBC.

Then you don't want Vanilla, and this server isn't being made for you.

It's made for anyone who will sub for it. That's the people who matter.

[lightofdawn]

I'll agree that not wanting class balance is stupid, but ive also seen people on reddit that want their classic wow transmog gains to be usable on current wow servers. people are fucking stupid, there's no way around it.

i can't see blizzard releasing something as unpolished as the original vanilla. if i had to guess, extra features would be:
- optional new models
- balancing
- up to date customization options for the old races (not that there are a ridiculous amount)

[Ielenia]

Hey I mean, I just wanted to ask in case you wanted ALL or just SOME.

I even went in reverse order, so you can see how quickly your point devolved.

Except nothing you quoted there back up your claim that I made the argument, and I quote, that:

"You are physically unable to play a ret paladin?"

Or the 'creation' or 'making' of patch 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, etc...

Or are you going to say those weren't made, or created?

Except I specifically mentioned "creating WoW", not "creating WoW patch number X". You are trying to split hairs and failing to do so. 2 for 2, so far.

As for the video, yeah, I can see that. I concede they said that. However, I do hope you keep in mind that Blizzard likes to change plans. It was like that with the Demon Hunters, it was like that with classic WoW too.

[Occam-OC]

Getting back to the topic, someone posted that Nostalrius (sp?) was 1.12 with class modifications that were not implemented in 1.12? I never played the servers so I'm curious if the server admins had made alterations to any class mechanics prior to being shut down.

[FreaknRhinos]

So in other words, you've already regressed back into:

"Saying stuff. Saying stuff. Saying stuff. Big words. Intellectual dishonesty.

You're wrong. Kid. Immature."

Got it. +1 shitpost mate.

So in other words -

I just want someone to call names because I have nothing better to do. Gotcha.

Everything about your posts are extremely negative, aggressive and condescending. Posts oozes with cringe, so much so, my shoulders hurt.

Your lack of empathy is gross and I don't think it's an internet persona. Did your usual posting ground on /r/incel ban hurt your ego? Seems like you'd frequent there.

[Deleted]

back in vanilla when you played ret pala you knew he wanted it and had fun with it... it was not because it was op it was about having fun with what we had , and that is exactly what poeple want

what crack are smoking ? i played pala in vanilla and i dident play it because i liked the way it played i played it because i was into the whole knight paladin justice blah blah image and when i got to 60 and found we were just "priests in plate" i like many outher paladins was very upset but levelling took months so re-rolling was just a ball ache so it was quit or keep bitching to blizz and eventually in tbc we got a working tank spec and in wrath we got a working dps spec.

im actualy kind of offended that when you saw a paladin you actualy thought he wanted to be a heal bitch sat in the back made to wear a dress....

[FreaknRhinos]

Getting back to the topic, someone posted that Nostalrius (sp?) was 1.12 with class modifications that were not implemented in 1.12? I never played the servers so I'm curious if the server admins had made alterations to any class mechanics prior to being shut down.

Absolutely did. The shit is a sandbox with modded dev tools to allow users to place widgets. Private servers literally aren't playable without mod intervention. Nost isn't anywhere close to actual Vanilla. That's why it's called a "Vanilla like" experience. Because without the knowledge formulas, and dev tools, Nost couldn't bring a Vanilla experience, not even close.

- - - Updated - - -

what crack are smoking ? i played pala in vanilla and i dident play it because i liked the way it played i played it because i was into the whole knight paladin justice blah blah image and when i got to 60 and found we were just "priests in plate" i like many outher paladins was very upset but levelling took months so re-rolling was just a ball ache so it was quit or keep bitching to blizz and eventually in tbc we got a working tank spec and in wrath we got a working dps spec.

im actualy kind of offended that when you saw a paladin you actualy thought he wanted to be a heal bitch sat in the back made to wear a dress....

You obviously never played Vanilla, as Ret Tanking was the fastest way to get .5 Tier Stratholme run requirement done. It required a decent healer, but I seen that shit in randoms and it worked.

What crack are you smoking?

[Emerald Archer]

Then they would lose those who asked for unchanged vanilla.

That's an extreme minority (a vocal minority) but still an extreme minority.

They ARE making some changes, it won't be untouched, so anyone childish enough to refuse to play because it isn't "pure vanilla" is already out.

[Deleted]

Getting back to the topic, someone posted that Nostalrius (sp?) was 1.12 with class modifications that were not implemented in 1.12? I never played the servers so I'm curious if the server admins had made alterations to any class mechanics prior to being shut down.

A lot of talents worked different simply because they were broken, the main ability for warriors to gain threat for example did not work or not as intended. Many other scaling issues and bugs. Nost was a different alpha build with loads of connection issues for Vanilla.

Once the game is out people won't care as much for changes as they think they will if the core gameplay stays the same.

[Lucavian]

It would mean that they would be capable of sustaining enough mana to not negatively impact overall raid DPS (external buffs considered) during long boss fights.

Raid dps with what attack abilities? Their end level talent was repentence lol.

[evogsr]

So in other words -

I just want someone to call names because I have nothing better to do. Gotcha.

Everything about your posts are extremely negative, aggressive and condescending. Posts oozes with cringe, so much so, my shoulders hurt.

Your lack of empathy is gross and I don't think it's an internet persona. Did your usual posting ground on /r/incel ban hurt your ego? Seems like you'd frequent there.

Could you enlighten me to what /r/incel even is? I can gather that it's something related to plebbit, but I'll have to let you down, that's about all I know of it. I can't say I'm remotely intrigued enough to load the page to find out.

This is rich indeed.

Everything about your posts are extremely negative, aggressive and condescending.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Before I even made an entrance to this thread.

Do you charge for psychoanalysis? Help me out doc. I need empathy on an internet forum because reasons.

[Hitei]

I'll agree that not wanting class balance is stupid, but ive also seen people on reddit that want their classic wow transmog gains to be usable on current wow servers. people are fucking stupid, there's no way around it.

i can't see blizzard releasing something as unpolished as the original vanilla. if i had to guess, extra features would be:
- optional new models
- balancing
- up to date customization options for the old races (not that there are a ridiculous amount)

There's little reason for the gains not to be usable if you're doing the content. 94% of that stuff can just be farmed quickly and easily on live, 1% can be bought on the BMAH. There's only a handful of items (Corrupted AB, Chromatic sword, ZG stuff, class quest stuff) that no longer exists. Add into this that basically ALL of that gear was obtainable during BC, when it was significantly easier to acquire, and everything but the Naxx stuff was also available in Wrath, when it was even more easier to acquire and farm--and there's really zero reason why rewards shouldn't just transfer.

Even if Classic were to be class balanced, people doing the content would still be doing it more legitimately than someone who farmed ZG in Wrath or organized naxx runs at 70 with BC talents and the benefit of 70 gear and HP.

Pretty silly not to let people use stuff they earn.

[FreaknRhinos]

A lot of talents worked different simply because they were broken, the main ability for warriors to gain threat for example did not work or not as intended. Many other scaling issues and bugs. Nost was a different alpha build with loads of connection issues for Vanilla.

Once the game is out people won't care as much for changes as they think they will if the core gameplay stays the same.

Which is what the fight was originally about, before the Nost kiddies decided to jump in.

The design philosophies of the time are what people are in love with. Not the content. While the content played a MAJOR part in it's growth of an MMO, because of the content of WC3, it not exactly what drove the game forward.

Legions content is FAR superior. So I ask, what exactly made Classic, Classic? Everyone answers are about design philosophy in one form or the other.

So, look at it like this - Legion is the culmination of all the bitching of the previous expansions and Classic. Paying customers, as a collective, decided these were issues that needed looked. We got the changes in expansions.

It's Blizzard way of implementing these changes that has everyone hammered. We asked for faster travel, but we didn't ask for 500% flying or even FLYING in general. We asked for more viable specs, not that every spec needed viability. We asked for better itemization, not a complete remove of combat systems. We asked for better dungeons mechanics, not 12 phase 16 minute fights. We asked for more accessible content, not content a grand mother can do.

Blizzard fell when it caved into the Activison merger and it quite obvious it hasn't been the same since.

[Thimagryn]

It's Blizzard way of implementing these changes that has everyone hammered. We asked for faster travel, but we didn't ask for 500% flying or even FLYING in general. We asked for more viable specs, not that every spec needed viability. We asked for better itemization, not a complete remove of combat systems. We asked for better dungeons mechanics, not 12 phase 16 minute fights. We asked for more accessible content, not content a grand mother can do.

Blizzard fell when it caved into the Activison merger and it quite obvious it hasn't been the same since.

Really couldn't be said any better. What we want for Vanilla in retaining the experience but without the obvious bullshit growing pains is not equivalent to what exists today in retail.

[Laerrus]

These debates are still going on?!? You kids better watch it. Personally, if I were Blizz, I'd be done listening to all the bullshit and bitching and just scrap the goddamn project, while citing insufficient resources behind my reasoning.

Fucking relax, you wanted Vanilla, you are going to fucking get Vanilla.

[FreaknRhinos]

Could you enlighten me to what /r/incel even is? I can gather that it's something related to plebbit, but I'll have to let you down, that's about all I know of it. I can't say I'm remotely intrigued enough to load the page to find out.

This is rich indeed.



Pot. Kettle. Black. Before I even made an entrance to this thread.

Do you charge for psychoanalysis? Help me out doc. I need empathy on an internet forum because reasons.

You need empathy because it's a basic human emotion. Empathy allows you to sympathize and view others without indignation. It allows emotion regulation, as you don't see people as objects you need to by pass. That everyone comes to some sort of conclusion, be wrong or not, by experiences in life that helped shape that view.

Without empathy, you are nothing but an animal. Without empathy your intelligence is wasted being right, or black and white. Rather, use your intelligence to educate and appreciate different view points, than trying to destroy them.

If you aren't trying to educate, then it's wasted effort.

All of that leads to me realize you are just a kid with a hard-on for fights. You don't argue, you want to be right. Evidence is that fact you're trying to pull information out of people that's entirely irrelevant to ANY point being made, here.

You are just senselessly bantering for the sake of it. You have no dog in the fight, you don't care. You have no empathy for the cause on way or the other. You are simply here to stir the pot.

Now that you are getting called on it, you have devolved into name calling and senseless ramblings.

[evogsr]

Senseless ramblings.

//10char//