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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by RapBreon View Post
    So here's my question then. If they choose to go the Private Server route and stagger content, but release 1.12 as far as mechanics, balancing, gearing etc. What do they do? Original MC progression wasn't done with 1.12 talents and changes, those changes undeniably make older encounters easier (as they weren't tuned for them).

    Would a more classic experience involve a Rag tuned to factor those things in? Or just a Rag who gets walked over? I personally think that would be underwhelming and more dramatically...an injustice to his memory.
    Perhaps they should just replicate Vanilla entirely. Start it on the first patch vanilla started on, and add patches just as they were added in actual vanilla, with the exact same schedule used the first time.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzington View Post
    Perhaps they should just replicate Vanilla entirely. Start it on the first patch vanilla started on, and add patches just as they were added in actual vanilla, with the exact same schedule used the first time.
    I was going to add this, but this is actually why I vote for the shit show that is a 1.0 simulation, purely because it is more accurate...if not more...unpleasant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    You said you needed better reactions today. That's fucking bullshit. To put it into perspective. In naxx, there were dots in vanilla that would kill a player in 4 seconds. You had no AOE heals, few instant heals if any, cast times were longer, mana costs higher and a raid of 40, and the "move out of fire" mechanic, contrary to what you believe wasn't invented in legion.
    4 seconds lmao. I used to fucking die to the dot from Mythic Goroth all the time if I didn't have CDs and that's like 12 seconds. AOE healing and HPS padding is a fucking scourge upon this land!

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Daish View Post
    yes daishelf on alliance

    - - - Updated - - -



    lol 4-5 days to get 60 i shall lol again

    do you know what a leveling bottleneck is ? the respawn rate on mobs is insanely low in vanilla more then 1 player can't tag the same quest mob

    tanks fire resist gear needed to be crafted btw you don't just loot it from a dungeon

    alts on vanilla? LOL i almost spit my drink up
    Bottleneck is there in the start, but most of those people will stop at some point.
    You want to get ahead. You keep going, no more bottleneck. That's how that's worked in the past, everytime.

    4 days has seemed to be quite common speed leveling time, granted that is on a server that didn't just open up.
    Type in google and search vanilla wow speed leveling, and take your pick. Guides are there.
    Routes and races for you to choose. Execute.
    As we've witnessed A LOT of people are going to play for the vanilla experience, they want adventure and discovery, they are not there to speed level through.
    Leveling is what they do on their own pace. Those players are the easiest one to bypass.
    Figure out how to bypass the bottle of other speedrunners, play at night, don't start at prime time, play during work/school hours, whatever to lessen the effect.
    Okay the 4-5 days might be too tight if you're really in the starting zone bottleneck on the first day, but a week max two once you get past most people.
    When TBC launched me and a mate pushed leveling first 48 hours, we were the only god damn players hitting Terokkar Forest, same shit WotLK we hit the same bottleneck as others in Borean Tundra, but guess what after training through that shit there was like 4 people questing in Dragonblight once we got there at 4 in the morning after launch. That's how you deal with a bottleneck. Granted vanilla is tougher cause nothing is optimized and as you said respawn rates are shit. Either try your luck and hope you get first tags, or start later than others and go past when they go to bed.

    For crafted gear, that's why there's professions, right?
    It's not that complicated.. You level professions as you play, like you've done over a decade now.
    If you're bottlenecked somewhere cause of mobs, use the time to level professions, go gather shit.
    Or go start up the alt. Multitask. There's always something to be done. It's how you choose to spend your time.

    If your aim is to get to raiding as fast as possible, you highly likely are going in with a guild already when it launches.
    Or make sure you do, organize and make progression through leveling effective. You don't all need to be blacksmiths.
    Run premade with guild through dungeons, if they have the same goal, they are as motivated and dungeons will be faster, cause people know what to do, what to cc. You can discord pulls, so you don't spend 15 minutes on assigning cc every pack.
    That's the min-maxing people from current game bring to the table of classic. It's up to people if they choose not to, but no changes means, no changes to the game, not the players, they'll do as they wish. If the api for example is the original one, well addons at that point will be playing the game for players to some extent, cause it was possible, addon devs didn't use it's full potential, the knowledge they have now about the lua for example. And we didn't have addon clients that auto update every addon centralized every day either, when you can do that without a press of a button and nothing the game client can do about such thing, addons are more widely used than in vanilla. And if you can minimize or take out human errors from like raiding with addons that the old api allowed, it just wasn't used to that extent, that's one aspect that makes shit faster.

    Many people had alts in vanilla.
    I don't see the problem. Shit takes time sure, but if you're going at this seriously you need to have the time.
    I'm sitting here 7 days a week playing Legion currently, 12-16 hours every day.
    What do you think i'm going to do when Classic is here, sit here playing that shit 12-16 hours a day, cause that's what i do.

    It's not like the game is some magical wall that can't be beaten by putting in the time.
    Cause that's all vanilla is, time and determination.
    You don't quit until the job is done. You're talking to a person who spent 6 years and 3 months, every single week doing Black Temple to get his Warglaives. Every single reset, not a week missed. Why, cause i wanted those 2 items sitting in my inventory, way way way past their actual time of usefulness.
    Vanilla wow is no where near the grindiest game ever.
    I've spend thousands of hours on games much worse in the grind aspect than wow a lot of times for not even a reward or reward that has been lost at the end, cause the game allowed people to steal shit directly from players or whatever.
    You work a week, a month for shit, go to bed, someone comes and steals your work, in some cases you don't even know who it was won't ever find out.
    Grats you just spent a month to accomplish absolutely nothing.

    I'm not actually here saying or even agreeing that shit needs to be tuned higher.
    Make vanilla exactly as it was. That's my opinion, do not touch anything.
    I'm just saying that if people think this shit will take forever to have first kills and completed content, they are in for a wild ride of surprises.
    All you need is 40 if not even less motivated people to push through it, highly likely you'll need that 40 for Naxx, but below that even the 40 might not be needed. Key is having motivated people. And supposedly we are now in millions and millions of people joining for this, which i also doubt, but i guarantee there's at least 1x 40 people among those joining.
    Last edited by Redecle; 2017-11-24 at 04:41 AM.

  4. #124
    The people shitting on Retail difficulty must have played LFR only. It's mind-boggling how they think Vanilla raids were harder than Retail. A single Retail mythic boss has more mechanics than whole vanilla raids combined. A single personal mistake or below-par DPS will wipe the raid. In vanilla, half the raid could go AFK and still down the boss.

    They think that retail content giving lots of epics somehow means raids are easier. Sure, let's see your toon decked out in World Quest epics try to tackle Mythic Mistress in one go.
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  5. #125
    Scarab Lord Frumpy Frumpy Frak's Avatar
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    Indeed, the problem with Classic's singular difficulty will be that organised, hardcore guilds will grow bored very quickly with the raiding content as it was tuned for an unruly mob of people with wildly varying effort and skill levels.

    Let's face it, we're better players, we have better mod creators and better communication tools than we did 13 years ago, any guild that puts in even a little effort will tear through all the raiding content in no time.

    This is why we need all four difficulty modes from live all the way from LFR to Mythic.

    This will both smooth out the massive, purely ilvl derived difficulty spikes and provide the most skilled players with a goal to strive toward. There are literally no downsides to this as you can ignore any difficulty modes you have no interest in.

    Just because vanilla was flawed, it doesn't mean we have to ignore all the lessons we've learned throughout the years to the detriment of the gameplay. People need to stop seeing this as a vanilla clone because it isn't and never can be and start seeing it as a vanilla remake.
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  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Frumpy Frumpy Frak View Post
    Indeed, the problem with Classic's singular difficulty will be that organised, hardcore guilds will grow bored very quickly with the raiding content as it was tuned for an unruly mob of people with wildly varying effort and skill levels.

    Let's face it, we're better players, we have better mod creators and better communication tools than we did 13 years ago, any guild that puts in even a little effort will tear through all the raiding content in no time.

    This is why we need all four difficulty modes from live all the way from LFR to Mythic.

    This will both smooth out the massive, purely ilvl derived difficulty spikes and provide the most skilled players with a goal to strive toward. There are literally no downsides to this as you can ignore any difficulty modes you have no interest in.

    Just because vanilla was flawed, it doesn't mean we have to ignore all the lessons we've learned throughout the years to the detriment of the gameplay. People need to stop seeing this as a vanilla clone because it isn't and never can be and start seeing it as a vanilla remake.
    Lots of people hate the absurdity of the boss becoming vastly stronger or weaker based on hitting a button.

    It's far more immersive for the boss to be the boss. That's it. No extra versions of him.

    As you allude to, vanilla already has difficulty levels built in, the non-lazy way. If you want a boss of a different difficulty you _make a whole new boss_. or even instance. Most/all of molten core is normal mode raiding. Blackwing Lair has some heroic and normal mode bosses. Ahn'qiraj has mostly all heroic bosses with one mythic (C'thun). Naxxramas has a few heroic mode bosses, some halfway between heroic/mythic and some truly difficult encounters (Four Horsemen, Kel'Thuzad). I mean at the time by that, nowadays I think the extra knowledge of the game about how to increase your character's dps will make those encounters a peg or three easier.

    The problem with classic is that it was tuned around people not really knowing anything. You can see on private servers when people tryhard world buff and min-max everything DPS is insanely higher than in 2006.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2017-11-24 at 04:19 AM.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Piesor View Post
    No it won't be.
    Main reason is that gear is not as easy obtainable like today. Additionally building dungeon groups take more efforts, dungeons take much longer to complete.
    Mobs will run away in dungeons and add more groups in uncoordinated groups. Raidsize is bigger, gearing up more people and coordinate everything will be much harder for most casual players. Additionally many encounters at a later stage were just gearchecks. You won't compensate because you already completed this content more than 12 years ago.
    Yes there will be a few people that will steamrush things. But those people will spend much more time to prepare for raids than they would need in retail and will be online 24/7 to achieve that.
    Considering i was full MC in less than a month back when retail was 1.12, I'm calling bullshit.

    After 14 years of fine tuned leveling guides, dungeon mechanic extrapolation and months and months and months of lead up to the actual release to plan for the master rush? yeah, I'm doubting Naxx will remain relevant longer than 3 months unless it's gated.
    There is absolutely no basis for individual rights to firearms or self defense under any contextual interpretation of the second amendment of the United States Constitution. It defines clearly a militia of which is regulated of the people and arms, for the expressed purpose of protection of the free state. Unwillingness to take in even the most basic and whole context of these laws is exactly the road to anarchy.

  8. #128
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tholl View Post
    Players that have never played Vanilla (Or very little of it) are going to be in for a very rude awakening.

    I honestly can't wait to see how many DPS'ers stand at the front of mobs and bosses in dungeons, how many don't use CC correctly (Or break CC that someone else set up), or try to take multiple non elite mobs on while leveling up.

    I promise that a lot of people who never played vanilla but decide to try out the classic servers are going to /ragequit by level 40. (Not having enough gold for a mount will most likely be that deciding factor). All the knowledge of the interwebs and all the available guides are going to mean jack when faced with the grind that is leveling up and getting enough blue gear to enter your first raid.

    Retail is streamlined. That is why you are fed epics before you even hit level cap. They WANT you to get into raids to see content and lore. You can level to 110 today in a matter of hours, and beef your I-level up to start raiding in no time. Vanilla was about time spent. Literally.

    With vanilla, you are going to be holding onto blue gear for a very long time. (Even some greens). Players now do not have to worry about hit/expertise soft cap, nor do they have to worry about resist gear. Want to go in MC? Not without grinding out that resist gear. (And you better make sure it doesn't drop your hit/exp ratings too low). And to get that gear, or the plans/mats for it? Better be ready to run BRD/LBRS/UBRS over and over again. You can't even MAKE the resist plate (Or smelt the mats for it) unless you go into BRD, so good luck finding people that are willing to spend hours helping you do that. I suggest a good guild asap.

    So like I said, retail is streamlined. It is a totally different beast today than it was then. I honestly do not think that the Classic servers will be for everyone. (Especially players who never touched vanilla).

    It will be cool for them at first, but then reality will sink in, and they will move on to see the new retail stuff (And to catch up with current guild mates and friends who are not on Classic).

    To put it this way...

    Retail players who have been playing for the past few years are the equivalent to say, a soldier who is just out of basic training. They have all the modern day tools, intel, etc to get the job done. Nobody is denying that.

    The Vanilla players though, are the ones who have been on multiple tours from past wars. They have seen the advancement of modern military technology, and while they respect the new soldiers, they still look at them as green pups who have zero idea what they are doing.
    another way of looking at your post would be 'here is a list of things blizzard needs to take care of to make sure retail and other later-version former players don't quit!!'

    I personally cannot imagine A/B letting paying customers walk out the door because they won't nerf a video game.

    I know I sound jaded with regard to blizz and a/b. All I know is that the list of classic aspects you posted is just what todayy's blizzard core values and accessibility dogma try to get away from. There is no way Activision-blizz puts out a game that pushes players away due to 'inaccessibility.' Does not compute.
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2017-11-24 at 06:00 AM.
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  9. #129
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Lots of people hate the absurdity of the boss becoming vastly stronger or weaker based on hitting a button.

    It's far more immersive for the boss to be the boss. That's it. No extra versions of him.

    As you allude to, vanilla already has difficulty levels built in, the non-lazy way. If you want a boss of a different difficulty you _make a whole new boss_. or even instance. Most/all of molten core is normal mode raiding. Blackwing Lair has some heroic and normal mode bosses. Ahn'qiraj has mostly all heroic bosses with one mythic (C'thun). Naxxramas has a few heroic mode bosses, some halfway between heroic/mythic and some truly difficult encounters (Four Horsemen, Kel'Thuzad). I mean at the time by that, nowadays I think the extra knowledge of the game about how to increase your character's dps will make those encounters a peg or three easier.

    The problem with classic is that it was tuned around people not really knowing anything. You can see on private servers when people tryhard world buff and min-max everything DPS is insanely higher than in 2006.
    the problem that is going to be run into is the modern activision-blizzard design philosphy that 'all players should be able to see all of the content.' I cannot imagine today's blizzard putting out naxx v1 and not making sure every single least common denominator player can see it.

    So I expect multiple raid difficulties per raid.
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  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    the problem that is going to be run into is the modern activision-blizzard design philosphy that 'all players should be able to see all of the content.' I cannot imagine today's blizzard putting out naxx v1 and not making sure every single least common denominator player can see it.

    So I expect multiple raid difficulties per raid.
    That's so far from what classic is I can't even imagine them doing that.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    another way of looking at your post would be 'here is a list of things blizzard needs to take care of to make sure retail and other later-version former players don't quit!!'
    Redistributing players is the most retarded decision from business' standpoint.

    They'll try to bring in new players to add to their current number of MAUs and not simply move users from one game to another, because it'd mean an increase in spending w/o profit gains.

  12. #132
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightspark View Post
    Redistributing players is the most retarded decision from business' standpoint.

    They'll try to bring in new players to add to their current number of MAUs and not simply move users from one game to another, because it'd mean an increase in spending w/o profit gains.

    I think they will make classic tuned roughly like 3.x in overall gameplay. highest pop was late bc/early wotlk, and it is certainly a much more accessible game by 3.0 than pre-2.3. this is targeted mainly at former players hwo played bc and/or wotlk. classic server folks are a much smaller group, and actual p/s players are likely only a few hundred k max.

    I am certainly curious to see how this works out. I just look at public comments (check out pardo's 2014 MIT lecture on blizz core values) over time and classic wow is the antithesis of what today's blizzard wants to be. classic isn't getting out the door without 'help' from blizzard on the way.

    at this point on the publicity side, it is all about expectation management with the classic community. say soothing things, use vague or trick language (classic game experience, does it'feel classic,' etc.), pretend to listen to community input on controversial topics because you know they will be arguments which is an excuse to say' yes we are, lots of people want it' etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    That's so far from what classic is I can't even imagine them doing that.
    Unfortunately, i cannot imagine ACTIVISION-Blizzard not doing it.

    hundreds of millions in potential revenue depend on blizz targeting this at the biggest possible market (as many former players as possible, essentially) and they are going to go for a much easier general tuning/pacing than 1.x/anything, or even 2.4.3.

    have you noticed orchestrated use of highly subjective and weird phrases like 'does this 'feel classic'' or the 'classic game experience' (not the game itself) ? they know they need to snowball the classic community for as long as possible. NO ONE talks like that unless they are avoiding saying something else.

    I also expect raid difficulties. I cannot imagine a/b putting this out without every player having the ability to kill KT without too much time/skill.

    I would like to see Names at blizz pinned down with explicit questions like

    how many hits will an outdoor mob need to kill a clothie at level?

    how long should the average dungeon run be? we know some dungeons of course were 2 hours minimum or much worse BRD hello....I don't believe they will tune the dungeons so hard as to let this be true this time around.

    what should expected /played to 60 be?

    will graveyards and flight masters be added?

    will quest lines be restructed into a more coherent narrative (a polite euphemism for will they screw with the classic quests)? Will there be phasing and/or zone-wide linear questing?

    these are just a few. I don't believe they intend to leave any of the above aspects as they were in classic.

    as far as the tuning/pacing issue, I think classic community should just accept that blizz needs to tune this down to expand potential market, and begin lobbying for 'hardcore' classic servers as a subset, essentially the pristine idea from last year, just classic tuned properly and a single raid /instance difficulty. Blizz could call them something besides 'authentic' as that is not good advertising, maybe 'hardcore.' could even market it as a much harder option.
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2017-11-24 at 06:31 AM.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    what should expected /played to 60 be?
    TBF, Vanilla /played to 60 wasn't that long, people used to spend months levelling because they didn't know shit and were wasting hours upon hours on doing stuff that didn't reward XP. If you're serious about it and you had prev MMORPG experience, it normally took 10-14 days w/o nolifing to cap your char. It took twice as less if you decided to nolife quite seriously.

    I don't think that they'll add difficulties though, there's no real need to do so because difficulty of Vanilla raiding came from organising needed number of people and not from encounter difficulty, but ofc there's few oddballs here and there. You can't make getting 40ppl together easier, unless you add LFR which they won't, it's already confirmed they won't be adding queue systems.
    Last edited by ls-; 2017-11-24 at 06:42 AM.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunterwep View Post
    The player base today gets welfare epics.
    Try to raid current content in blue gear, that is how hard Vanilla will be.
    Yeah, because Onyxia and fucking Molten core were so fucking difficult in terms of mechanics.

    You guys ever think for a second that maybe raiding with blues was not only intentionally designed, but expected at the time because raid mechanics were a joke?
    There is absolutely no basis for individual rights to firearms or self defense under any contextual interpretation of the second amendment of the United States Constitution. It defines clearly a militia of which is regulated of the people and arms, for the expressed purpose of protection of the free state. Unwillingness to take in even the most basic and whole context of these laws is exactly the road to anarchy.

  15. #135
    But what about "Vanilla is Vanilla"? It would lose its significance as Vanilla if ANYTHING is changed.

    Suddenly, when you want something, you ask for it, but we can't.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by VyersReaver View Post
    But what about "Vanilla is Vanilla"? It would lose its significance as Vanilla if ANYTHING is changed.

    Suddenly, when you want something, you ask for it, but we can't.
    It's easy. Tuning the encounters to be tougher is fine. Everything else in the world is bad.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Blamblam41 View Post
    Yeah, because Onyxia and fucking Molten core were so fucking difficult in terms of mechanics.

    You guys ever think for a second that maybe raiding with blues was not only intentionally designed, but expected at the time because raid mechanics were a joke?
    They conveniently forget that by AQ and Naxx release, MC and ZG were already the source for a lot of welfare epics. Most level 60 players were fully decked out in purples by 2006.
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    When we looked at their ruins, we marked the danger of that height.
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  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Pigy View Post
    I see your argument and I raise you this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34ba7rg0gdc

    Say what you will, but this is the best players available at the time, and just to name a few things:
    being frost while progressing AQ - really? The mana inefficiency is real, the lack of counterspells on eyes is real, "misuse" of blink is also very apparent.

    Compare the general playstyle of this player to say world first Gul'dan, there's a royal gap.
    So you say that best players got better, so what? The majority is still a cesspool of inadequacy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    It's easy. Tuning the encounters to be tougher is fine. Everything else in the world is bad.
    And you're wrong. Slippery slope is one of your Vanillaers arguments.

    So you are either a hypocrite, or you think you do, but you don't.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by VyersReaver View Post
    So you say that best players got better, so what? The majority is still a cesspool of inadequacy.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And you're wrong. Slippery slope is one of your Vannilaers arguments.

    So you are either a hypocrite, or you think you do, but you don't.
    That was a joke.

  20. #140
    Classic servers should be exactly how the game actually was back then. No more, no less. The only changes that should be made are bug fixes. Cases where the game was not working as intended. Though even then, they should leave in any bugs that felt iconic to the time. Like how you could carefully jump into Old Hyjal.

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