Classic must be tuned higher than it was in 2004

[Deleted]

A relevant video I've came across.

Relevant than during the time of those video he and made nihilum again, claiming to go for top 1 but in the end he didnt even managed to reach top20, leaving (kicked) by treckie and rick (omega lul).

[Jastall]

My guild wiped 21 times on KT before we killed him. We're a guild with very experienced players and no addon or advanced knowledge of the tactics helped us. The fight is still rock hard, even in 2017.

21 wipes is an easy progression boss on Mythic, hell lots of guilds took more than that to kill/rekill Heroic KJ for instance.

Albeit Naxx is certainly a cut above other vanilla raids, that's for sure, and is not easy by any means.

[Redecle]

bottlenecks did not stop unless you were at the top top top of your server

there would be many players doing content that was a higher level then they needed to be for example

or you would run out of quests so YOU would go back to a lower level zone to quest

you do know you had to buy epic mounts on ALL of your alts it did not just spread from your main toon
you do know about attunements that took days hours weeks?
you do know vanilla was brutally alt unfriendly did you even play vanilla?

What do you think the point here is to do, bake cookies and drink milk in Ironforge, no, be on the very top top top of your server, that.
It's a race to server first 60, just like it has been every expansion since tbc, not that i've ever won that, but i've tried everytime. I've been 2nd twice closest being 23 second loss in wrath, been 3rd couple more times.
You didn't read anything i wrote did you?

Of course you had to buy mounts on every toon, there's no tabs for anything before wrath. It costs gold. You need the riding skill and you need the mount, separately.
Highly likely especially if you're speed leveling your first toon, you won't have enough money to buy your mount when it's "unlockable".
So you grind gold until you do. Or you start grinding shit to sell to other's for gold. Things like that mentioned resistance gear.
That's why you level professions, to sell shit and skills and patterns you can do. That's how you make money.
I grinded gold during vanilla just so i could buy one sword during Naxx even though i wasn't raiding and it wasn't even that good of a sword but it looked cool, i ended up paying a 1000 gold for one sword to some blacksmith who had the recipe and crafted it for me as i stood waiting in Ironforge next to him. Thing was i wanted that sword and it was worth every penny. Not this time, this time i'm the one doing the crafting and selling.

For attunements, that's the next progression phase after leveling along with gear.
It's nothing impossible to do. Specially if you have a guild doing the same you're.
As I said, guilding with people doing the exact same thing as you, you got premades running attunement shit so the guild can begin raiding.
That's how guilds who want server first work. They work together so they have everyone prepared. And they pose carrots so people don't fall behind. In Cata my progression guild offered full tier tokens 4-set for the first person to reach max level, while the expac was launched. You got priority over everyone else if you were the fastest. A warlock in the guild won that and was the whole realms first, i was 3rd, didn't get jackshit, but the whole guild was ready for the first raid at the same time.
If you're counting on doing attunements via yelling in /, you're fucked.

I know it was unfriendly, but it wasn't impossible.
I had only 1 character in vanilla, i hopped in to the game midway vanilla, i was learning the game back then.
It's not like i haven't been through the entire vanilla experience before, just not a Blizzard hosted one.
This time is different, i have goal. I know what i want to achieve and how to get there and the time to do it.
That friend who pushed leveling in tbc and wotlk with me. By then end of vanilla he got 4 level 60 toons 1 in full aq40, 2 other in mixed bwl and mc gear and one dungeon level toon he leveled with me and he played almost night and daily, so it's not impossible. Honestly, me i didn't even step in a raid before TBC, i did do the attunements for vanilla, but that was cause i just did shit i didn't even know i was doing, but that's why i'm here now going classic. Difference to that vanilla me and current me, at this point i have done split runs with 12 classes simultaneously, now i don't intend to level 12 toons in vanilla, 3 or 4 will suffice, but looking at the amount of work seems to be around the same than maintaining 12 on retail now.

You make it sound like no one else has ever played vanilla warcraft and that it's the pinnacle of everything difficult.
If you're planning on playing an hour or 2 per evening and talking to every npc ever. Yes, you're not going to be level 60 in the first year.
Heck my first trip there in vanilla took 4 months to get to 60, granted i also played a lot back then, but i read nothing, i wandered where my nose was heading until a pack of mobs came and killed me or a red texted mob aggroed me and oneshotted me. I was playing around in the Ashenvale Felwood border when my friend was on his 60 toon in Winterspring, thinking i can just run to him no big deal. There were a pack of wolves at that zone border that kept killing me, but i tried and tried thinking i could do it. Like expecting something else to happen when you were level 28 and the wolves were ?? red, actually being 48-49. Little did i know.

My first toon was human in vanilla, but my friend wanted to level with me, but he wanted to be a night elf. He knew the game, i didn't. He insisted for me to come to him. I was level 3 and i spend 10+ HOURS on the first day in the game following his directions to get from Goldshire to Teldrassil, on foot, i had no gold, i had no flightmaster routes. Doing nothing but running and dying to every single non yellow mob. But i wanted to be a human and not a night elf and play with him. Not doing that again.

[Deficineiron]

Problems is, your average player is bad, extremely bad, people were bad back in the day and they're still bad now, I see people dying to single mobs on Argus, I see people kb-turning and clicking abilities. For them even current iteration of WoW levelling from 100 to 110 is hard.

The only adequate way to measure how hard the game is is to take a look at high end content where more or less capable people are.

players on average being bad (I don't disagree) does not mean you measure the game by nosebleed content that only a small fraction of players do - you measure the game by what players spend the most time doing. today it may be order halls or some difficulties of raids/instances - but in classic, tuned as-was, it was leveling, because it took so long for normal human players (not this forum's members who are above average in /played) that it was all they did.

[Deleted]

You're still not hearing me dude. The mechanics are more complicated? Sure, people do more math and more websites and resources exist to inform players? Sure. But players aren't more "skillful" now is my entire point. The mass delusion you and many others operate under is what's naive. The belief that we're so fucking good now that we'll burn up all content is silly, and misguided if you remember anything about the workings of vanilla.

And on the subject of vanilla vs modern wow difficulty. Imo stuff like naxx 40 and AQ40 still remain really freaking tough just based on the size of the raid, and the relative strength of each player. And you can say what you want about reused mechanics but thaddius was alot less forgiving than maiden is, and Heigan the unclean is a sight to behold with a raid of 40.

I seriously don't get what you mean about BiS gear in vanilla. You seem to forget how little gear dropped. People used what they had for gods sake. You didn't get superduper high level gear from 231231231 sources to get your BiS like today. It was an entirely different loot climate. "BiS" would be a rarity for even the highest end raiders.

What you fail to realize is that even blues are significantly better than your MC/BWL gear in some cases, same with ZG gear (esp the crafted bloodtwine) being pretty overbudgeted. People didn't get this and instead went for their T0 from dungeons and upgraded into T1 etc.

It's still a fact that mechanics are gonna be a joke and Classic is gonna be 100% about numbers, in which case we STILL have an advantage today over the past due to all the programs etc available to us today that wasn't around previously.

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21 wipes is an easy progression boss on Mythic, hell lots of guilds took more than that to kill/rekill Heroic KJ for instance.

Albeit Naxx is certainly a cut above other vanilla raids, that's for sure, and is not easy by any means.

Try 300ish on mythic Archimonde in WoD, no clue about mythic KJ.

[Deleted]

rofl

Sorry, it isn't that current players are more knowledgeable, more tactical, or have more expertise. The game is *much* easier today than it was back then.

It's not easier overall, it's less tedious and has layers of difficulty, with the easiest level being automatic matchmaking where you are spared the organisational nightmare which is a raid group (or a smaller version of that in dungeons).

[Jastall]

What you fail to realize is that even blues are significantly better than your MC/BWL gear in some cases, same with ZG gear (esp the crafted bloodtwine) being pretty overbudgeted. People didn't get this and instead went for their T0 from dungeons and upgraded into T1 etc.

It's still a fact that mechanics are gonna be a joke and Classic is gonna be 100% about numbers, in which case we STILL have an advantage today over the past due to all the programs etc available to us today that wasn't around previously.

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Try 300ish on mythic Archimonde in WoD, no clue about mythic KJ.

I was being generous by not mentioning Mythic end bosses . Archi took 450 wipes, KJ took more than 700 IIRC. And that's with the addons and dungeon journal and weakauras and stuff.

[Shiny212]

What you fail to realize is that even blues are significantly better than your MC/BWL gear in some cases, same with ZG gear (esp the crafted bloodtwine) being pretty overbudgeted. People didn't get this and instead went for their T0 from dungeons and upgraded into T1 etc.

It's still a fact that mechanics are gonna be a joke and Classic is gonna be 100% about numbers, in which case we STILL have an advantage today over the past due to all the programs etc available to us today that wasn't around previously.

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Try 300ish on mythic Archimonde in WoD, no clue about mythic KJ.

And Legion isn't? That's the thing, I don't believe that's changed one bit. The game is still piss easy, it's about the time you put in, not "gitting gud", ie FPS games, competitive RTS/mobas or chess. Your feeling of mastery is inflated but those numbers you speak of, they give you a sense of skill and importance, but in truth it's an illusion since it's your time invested paying off, not hard-trained skills.

[Dulu]

1.12 talents and balance, 16 debuff slots, better addons. Early pve encounters should be tuned with all these things in mind so that the difficulty is in a good place, not only for the first months but for the entire lifespan of the servers.

Why would you assume it's 1.12 talents or 16 slot debuffs?

That's not classic. That was pre-TBC patch.

[Heathy]

And Legion isn't? That's the thing, I don't believe that's changed one bit. The game is still piss easy, it's about the time you put in, not "gitting gud", ie FPS games, competitive RTS/mobas or chess. Your feeling of mastery is inflated but those numbers you speak of, they give you a sense of skill and importance, but in truth it's an illusion since it's your time invested paying off, not hard-trained skills.

I mean the proof is basically in the pudding lets compare my reaction times from when I started raiding ZG to the last tier its basically entirely different, i watch myself healing in zg and i'm basically standing there for long periods of time waiting for someone to take damage. where as you fast forward to today and its just an entirely different pacing. I simply did not have the reaction time I have today, during classic. not even close. my zg video is full of cringe, keyboard turning/ click healing, i still have fucking auto attack bound to 1 ffs how i even managed to get that far with pretty much zero keybinds is amazing in itself..

must have been my second raid because it looks like i already had a fang of venoxis from my first run. but i was a 100% scrub then who didn't really know wtf they were doing. i knew two things, I had to try to conserve mana, and calling for innervate makes you basically a pro. in terms of what was required to down a raid boss, considering i personally think zg was actually harder than MC, you really didn't have to be that great to down bosses or get epic gear.

at the end of the day its undeniable that ppl on average are better at playing wow than they were a decade ago.

[Deleted]

i'm of the opposite opinion on the time commitment, in some way an eternal classic server is free from time commitment, because your not racing to get to the end before a new expansion releases.

Exactly. Vanilla was a perfect casual game, much better for casuals than modern WoW. I could take things at my own slow pace, with long breaks in between, without being left behind because everything was suddenly obsoleted by a new patch.

[Heathy]

Exactly. Vanilla was a perfect casual game, much better for casuals than modern WoW. I could take things at my own slow pace, with long breaks in between, without being left behind because everything was suddenly obsoleted by a new patch.

well it originally went a different way, if you only started raiding in 2006 like i did then there wasn't enough lockouts in the whole year to reach naxx even if your whole 40 man guild became basement dwelling champions.

It would have probably taken us another year to reach naxx, what you said is exactly what did actually happen for a lot of ppl, naxx existed for practically the blink of an eye, then she was obsolete. its basically the reason why they brought it back for wrath because very few guilds were raiding enough to actually reach the place before tbc came along.

the current game has solo progression and catch up mechanics if you want to swap mains or raid as another spec/role. that just wasn't really feasible with the classic time sink, i had a pretty decent pre-raid geared rogue for pvping, but i think I only ever managed to do one molten core pug with one alt right near the launch of tbc. pugging raids during a lot of classic was pretty rare. they happened occasionally but nowhere near the level you see today, I think its because ppl didn't want to get saved to fail raids.

[Kaver]

just roll a rogue like 50% of the server

I heard someone say yesterday "People are gonna play what they want to play"... No they are not! Biggest joke ever.

I call:

95 % Rogues, warriors and mages

4 % Priests and warlocks

1 % Rest

[Echocho]

Why would you assume it's 1.12 talents or 16 slot debuffs?

That's not classic. That was pre-TBC patch.

Well they're only developing one client. It stands to reason that they use the best version of vanilla as a reference for Classic.

[Kithelle]

As much as I dislike Kungen, I must admit that he has a great point here and is not wrong.

I'm sure if they way way WAY overtuned the raids like they did for Naxx 40, live raids would be just as hard. But then what would be the point of that other than to stroke the egos of the super leetists?

[Echocho]

I heard someone say yesterday "People are gonna play what they want to play"... No they are not! Biggest joke ever.

I call:

95 % Rogues, warriors and mages

4 % Priests and warlocks

1 % Rest

There was a poll a while back where people voted on the class they'd like to play if class balance wasn't an issue. It was completely different than the polls about what they're actually going to play.
It shows that people choose their class based on power more than anything else. Blizzard should do some serious balancing imo so that warriors and rogues aren't on top. Warrior is even a damn hybrid, they should pay the tax and be below warlocks and hunters.

[Jastall]

your acting like every boss cursed people all the time nonstop

how many curses are there in the KJ fight the hardest fight in the game right now ?

im not a healer so i dont know but i dont recall any or its never been a problem ooooo decursing is so hard oooooo

also decurse use to be spammable now it has a long cool down thats no different then blizzard removing any other ability

the only problems i had in vanilla was with people decursing to early not late

Judging by your responses I'm not sure you even raid or know half of what I'm talking about. Decursing/dispeling is occasionally a thing, but it's one mechanic among many, and KJ doesn't need curses to molest your raid. It's just one example of a mechanic that used to be damn near automated in the oh so hard vanilla, yet needs to be done within a split second in Mythic to avoid instant wipes. Same for, say, the meteors which will toss you off the platform if you don't deal with them nigh on perfectly almost all fight long, and that's post nerf even. Or the beams in ph3, which are one-shots unless your positioning is perfect.

[Akka]

Well, given than HC Uld and ICC were way more complex than anything Vanilla had, there's no need to nerf anything. I have a feeling that you think that Vanilla was a pinnacle of raiding difficulty or something like that.

Pretending that some hardmode fight in the latest raid are representative of the average difficulty of the entire game is a dishonest and retarded argument that was already called on in 2008.

[Krawu]

I don't really care, since I'll only be playing the vanilla servers for a couple days to try them out. But anything other than the exact samefeatures, gameplay and balancing from back in the day without any new additions would open up the floodgates since everybody has their own views how and where the game may or should be improved.

The only chance I feel would be reasonable which doesn't change anything about the game itself, would be to have some invisible achievement tracker, and the achievements earned on vanilla will then appear on the present-day servers. Stull like the Ahn'Quiraj opening and what have you.

[Kaver]

There was a poll a while back where people voted on the class they'd like to play if class balance wasn't an issue. It was completely different than the polls about what they're actually going to play.
It shows that people choose their class based on power more than anything else. Blizzard should do some serious balancing imo so that warriors and rogues aren't on top. Warrior is even a damn hybrid, they should pay the tax and be below warlocks and hunters.

I'm not gonna lie.. I'm going to play rogue... because I don't want to heal... I don't want to be a buff bot... I don't want to be a 1 button spamming frost mage... I don't want to use 50 g every 30 min to respec... and I don't want to play a warlock...

But i really want to level in vanilla and try the old raids. So rogue it is!