Adding flying mounts was the worst thing Blizzard ever did with WoW

[tankbug]

That's absolutely not the reason why Vash'jr or other underwater zones are unpopular. There's a fundamentally different psychological feeling to being buried under such a massive and oppressive weight of water, with fear of sharks, kelp and weird blurry effects to screw with vision, etc. This is entirely different from the sense of wonder and freedom that comes along with the ability to fly through the open air.

I'd also add that Vash'jr had terrible zone layout, and bad itemization, as well as stealing people's mounted ability for the first few areas. The 3D environment did have an impact on its reception, but it wasn't the primary factor, nor was it even a significant one.

Well, I don't agree with that. Yes, water seems oppressive, but the problem is the movement. Flying is implemented as being a drone. You hover in the same location, unaffected by gravity, momentum, and is basically just swimming in free space. Consider "The Oculus", one of the most hate dungeons ever. It has a lot of crappy mechanics too, but just navigating through the dungeon once you can fly shows how awful it feels to do content this way. I get the freedom part, but does that really immerse you? To me it feels more like a cheat code.

People have incentive to group on the ground because they don't have any other choice. I need only reference the invasion events prior to the launch of Legion to prove that grouping can and DOES happen when players are given the option to fly to content which is actually interesting. The entire concept that flight hurts grouping or community is based on incredibly bad logic.

Good content will attract players to group up and complete it, regardless of how they get there or interact with it. Flying CAN be an amazing addition to the game again. All Blizzard has to do is pull the stick out of their collective assess and stop refusing to use it.

I don't think it's bad logic, just a difference in opinion on what benefits and drawbacks flying contributes to the game. I think travelling along the ground gives the world a much more interesting and immersive experience. I think that the way to focus point X is important, and it makes the game more of a mmorpg. You will encounter allies and enemies, instead of just going straight to the deciding action after the other. I think that's part of the experience, and not just an annoyance to get to the "real game". It helps to work together, and you get to see other people fight with you in the open world, for more than 30 seconds. This helps to build relationships, and awareness of other players impact outside dungeons.
I think flying could have a place in WoW in a positive way other than convenience, and that is if they implemented it with more realistic mechanics. Like very limited hovering time, like stamina for your mount, gliding on winds to pick up speed, momentum, so you have to turn like an airplane, and not just free floating around at instant speeds. And maybe you would need to call it, so it would take 10 seconds to get airborne. Maybe even implement an air combat, like throwing javelins, nets etc. Then flying would become an activity in addition to be something you would use more scarcely instead of being something which now is your default method of going anywhere, even 50 yards.

[Deleted]

Your should reassess yours too, because correlation does not equal causation.
In fact you didn't even present one, you simply said mine was wrong.

Look at the facts.
Flying and a lot of other conveniences introduced over time made it easier to help others.
But the community sucks now in its willingness to do so.

There is no reason for that beyond personal choice.
At the point the game was as its hardest players made the decision to make it even more so when they helped someone with no motivation beyond just helping.

Blizzard removed the need for alot of people to communicate with each other. You can see a version of all the raids and therefore the logical conclusion of PvE player progression without saying a word to anyone. You turn your game into a single player game don't be surprised when people play it as such.

I am interested to know why you think it happened other than the usual "its the players fault" stock answer to every fault in the game. I could do with a laugh.

[Aehl]

That's absolutely not the reason why Vash'jr or other underwater zones are unpopular. There's a fundamentally different psychological feeling to being buried under such a massive and oppressive weight of water, with fear of sharks, kelp and weird blurry effects to screw with vision, etc. This is entirely different from the sense of wonder and freedom that comes along with the ability to fly through the open air.

The only issue with Vash is the players inability to think in a three dimensional format. Not their fault if players cant visualise in a z axis format. I loved Vash and had zero problems with it..then again Im an avid flier who can think and fight in a freeform media.

Vash was awesome, the problem wasnt the medium or the zone, it was the limited and at times almost straitjacketed mentality of players.

[SirCowdog]

Well, I don't agree with that. Yes, water seems oppressive, but the problem is the movement. Flying is implemented as being a drone. You hover in the same location, unaffected by gravity, momentum, and is basically just swimming in free space. Consider "The Oculus", one of the most hate dungeons ever. It has a lot of crappy mechanics too, but just navigating through the dungeon once you can fly shows how awful it feels to do content this way. I get the freedom part, but does that really immerse you? To me it feels more like a cheat code.

Again, the primary reason the Oculus was poorly recieved was not because of the 3D movement, but because it stole away all your class abilities and identity, and replaced it with a crummy vehicle with garbage abilities. When it first launched, none of your gear, class, or spec mattered; only which dragon you picked. Added to that, the vehicle system was still very new, and the way you targeted other players was terrible, because the dragon's hitpoints were the pet bar instead of just clicking the player. You had to learn an entirely new DPS, tanking, and healing rotation.

The 3D movement was the LEAST of the issues with the Oculus.

As for flying feeling like a cheat code, did it feel that way in Vash'jr, Skettis, Ogri'la, or other zones where it was part of the design, or was it simply part of how the zone worked? I suspect the reason you say it feels like a cheat code is because once you turn on your flying in more recent content there's nothing there to challenge or engage you.

I don't think it's bad logic, just a difference in opinion on what benefits and drawbacks flying contributes to the game. I think travelling along the ground gives the world a much more interesting and immersive experience.

Did you play during TBC and WotLK? The game was PLENTY immersive and interesting while flying was available.

I think that the way to focus point X is important, and it makes the game more of a mmorpg. You will encounter allies and enemies, instead of just going straight to the deciding action after the other. I think that's part of the experience, and not just an annoyance to get to the "real game". It helps to work together, and you get to see other people fight with you in the open world, for more than 30 seconds. This helps to build relationships, and awareness of other players impact outside dungeons.

All of which were things that were done when flying was PART of the open world instead of an afterthought. Flying doesn't prevent any of those things you described from happening. Right now the only thing that has the drawbacks you just described is a complete and total lack of building content to use flying. In other words: The reason why flying doesn't give you those things is because Blizzard has taken them away, not because Flying inherently removes them.

I think flying could have a place in WoW in a positive way other than convenience, and that is if they implemented it with more realistic mechanics. Like very limited hovering time, like stamina for your mount, gliding on winds to pick up speed, momentum, so you have to turn like an airplane, and not just free floating around at instant speeds. And maybe you would need to call it, so it would take 10 seconds to get airborne. Maybe even implement an air combat, like throwing javelins, nets etc. Then flying would become an activity in addition to be something you would use more scarcely instead of being something which now is your default method of going anywhere, even 50 yards.

There are countless ways to improve flying. People like me have spent literal YEARS suggesting and imploring Blizzard to use them. Anything from changing how the ground interacts with flying players using harpoon attacks, better range, more towers, cliffs, mountains, and even flying islands. All the way up to a full conversion of the flight mechanics to include more realistic movement, with momentum, turn radius, acceleration, etc.

Instead what we get is Blizzard making annoying maze-like terrain filled with boring trash mobs. Where's your more immersive and enjoyable experience in that? Tripping over every root and badly designed hill, with a garbage 2D map that shows you the objective, but doesn't show the cliff that forces you to spend the next 15 minutes detouring all over the place to find the one tiny hole in the ground that leads to the cave filled with dazing monsters that aren't even part of the quest. Jumping on your ground mount, slapping on a no-dismount buff, and riding straight through hordes of trash until they leash, tagging the quest objective, then whistling/hearthing away?

[Preston Garvey]

I've thought this for a while but having leveled up through Pandaria it really hit home with me. There were a few times where I was frustrated and wished I could just fly to an area, but it got me thinking that I would never get that feeling if flying was never in the game in the first place. The game is just so much more engaging if you're looking at it from the ground. When leveling to 90 I had to look where I was going, think about my route to a questing area, figure out the best order to do the quests, etc. Once I hit 90, I just picked up a quest, mounted up, point myself in the right direction, and hit num lock. When you're on a regular mount you notice and appreciate the surroundings. When you're flying, you just notice the yellow arrow telling you where to go.

I always played on a pvp server in vanilla. I never even though twice about it. Why would you want to go kill dragons and get a big axe if not to smash some other players with it? But when TBC was released I didn't start right away mostly because my raiding guild had broken up when they added paladin gear to the raids(funny how something so seemingly small could break up a guild). So I was a few months late, enough time for most players to hit 70 and get their mounts. When I started questing is was horrid. I was getting ganked left and right. No one really corpse camped me but it didn't matter because I had no way of escaping - I was helpless. The best part of pvp was random encounters out in the world but that was completely taken away with that one change. Leveling became extremely frustrating and I ended up transferring to a pve server to play with a coworker. Now I'm not some cry baby that whined every time I was killed in pvp. Far from it. I went through the gauntlet of STV and BRM in vanilla and loved it. But the addition of flying mounts just made it.....different....not fun at all.

I think flying mounts are cool and some zones are designed great for them but I just have this overwhelming feeling that adding them was the worst single thing that ever happened to the game. There are plenty of other gripes I have about the game - arenas, the hard separation of pve and pvp(it blows my mind that pvpers complain about being 'forced' to do pve content), cross realm stuff, etc but I thought this was the biggest. I think a huge chunk of the nostalgia people have for vanilla could have been sustained for much longer if flying mounts were never added. When was the last time you were blown away by something in the game that wasn't forced upon you(with some sort of cinematic)? I'm thinking of stuff like entering blackrock mountain for the first time, going to ungoro crater and seeing your first devilsaur, etc. I had countless experiences like that while on a ground mount and maybe one or two on a flying mount.

then walk bro

[SirCowdog]

The only issue with Vash is the players inability to think in a three dimensional format. Not their fault if players cant visualise in a z axis format. I loved Vash and had zero problems with it..then again Im an avid flier who can think and fight in a freeform media.

Vash was awesome, the problem wasnt the medium or the zone, it was the limited and at times almost straitjacketed mentality of players.

I'm also, obviously, an avid supporter of flying. I used to play games like DESCENT, which is a 3D maze with robots shooting at you, or Wing Commander, and Tie Fighter, and other fighter-type games. I can think in 3D just fine, but even I found Vash'jr's overall atmosphere and presentation kind of annoying. When I enter a new zone in an expansion based on flying(Cata), and the first thing you do in a zone is not only take away my flying mount, but make me move at an annoying RP walk speed? Yeah, that's going to color my impression.

Add to that terrible loot from quests, quest triggers which often require just killing random monsters with no indicators, and a story centered on the Naga(which I give two dog turds about), and I'll go to any other zone first. And when the alternative is Mt Hyjal, with flying available right away, a dragon-ride to get there, a preview of the raid boss(Ragnaros), better loot options from quests? Yeah...wonder why Vash'jr was unpopular. It sure as hell wasn't the 3D movement.

[tankbug]

The 3D movement was the LEAST of the issues with the Oculus.

Still the dungen seems very weird and bad when you fly the way you do. It's so unnaturally implemented, it feels like when you encountered a no clip bug in old games and you just continued off outside the map. The dungeon was quite confusing for a while and even though it had a lot of problems, as you mention, it never had a chance, I think.

As for flying feeling like a cheat code, did it feel that way in Vash'jr, Skettis, Ogri'la, or other zones where it was part of the design, or was it simply part of how the zone worked? I suspect the reason you say it feels like a cheat code is because once you turn on your flying in more recent content there's nothing there to challenge or engage you.

Well, I never got around of paying like 5k gold in TBC, and at the time the poor version was very slow, so I usually took the road to get around. But the only thing that was a challenge in TBC and flying was getting too close to the other faction's guards, right? They had some nasty arrows. And that's better than nothing, I guess. I kinda feels like cheat code because the benefit is close to game breaking, and the movement is so stiff and unrealistic it feels like you're exploiting the game.

Did you play during TBC and WotLK? The game was PLENTY immersive and interesting while flying was available.

Yup, played since release. Yes the game was immersive and interesting, despite flying. The "best" zones were the ones you most likely played on the ground only, and flying only added convenience, especially for gathering professions. I've never heard anyone say that flying added a new dimension of fun and immersive gameplay to WoW.

All of which were things that were done when flying was PART of the open world instead of an afterthought. Flying doesn't prevent any of those things you described from happening. Right now the only thing that has the drawbacks you just described is a complete and total lack of building content to use flying. In other words: The reason why flying doesn't give you those things is because Blizzard has taken them away, not because Flying inherently removes them.

When were they ever a part of the experience, though? The Storm Peaks? I'm sorry, but I've yet to experience any great content based on that players should be able to fly. Please remind me.

There are countless ways to improve flying. People like me have spent literal YEARS suggesting and imploring Blizzard to use them. Anything from changing how the ground interacts with flying players using harpoon attacks, better range, more towers, cliffs, mountains, and even flying islands. All the way up to a full conversion of the flight mechanics to include more realistic movement, with momentum, turn radius, acceleration, etc.

Good! It will interesting to see if they do some changes.

Instead what we get is Blizzard making annoying maze-like terrain filled with boring trash mobs. Where's your more immersive and enjoyable experience in that? Tripping over every root and badly designed hill, with a garbage 2D map that shows you the objective, but doesn't show the cliff that forces you to spend the next 15 minutes detouring all over the place to find the one tiny hole in the ground that leads to the cave filled with dazing monsters that aren't even part of the quest. Jumping on your ground mount, slapping on a no-dismount buff, and riding straight through hordes of trash until they leash, tagging the quest objective, then whistling/hearthing away?

Well, not all "land-zones" are great. In fact, I think Argus is rather annoying, and doesn't really make sense to me, being split into different parts. Yes, it's annoying when you see "you're right on the spot" on the map, and there is no objective in sight, and you really should have taken the tunnel entrance halfway across the map. That will increase tenfold if we get more "3D maps" based on flying players.

[Draenox]

No, not really. The very first implementation of voice chat in WoW has got to be the single greatest failure of a "feature" they ever did. Sound quality akin to a "can & string" phone.

[SirCowdog]

Still the dungen seems very weird and bad when you fly the way you do. It's so unnaturally implemented, it feels like when you encountered a no clip bug in old games and you just continued off outside the map. The dungeon was quite confusing for a while and even though it had a lot of problems, as you mention, it never had a chance, I think.

I kinda feels like cheat code because the benefit is close to game breaking, and the movement is so stiff and unrealistic it feels like you're exploiting the game.

And ground mounts don't feel the same way to you? Full movement in any direction(except vertical) with no momentum or acceleration. I agree with what you're saying about how the flying mounts move, but it's exactly the same as every other form of movement in the game, with the only difference being the Z axis. To complain about one and not the other is not being completely objective or fair.

Well, I never got around of paying like 5k gold in TBC, and at the time the poor version was very slow, so I usually took the road to get around. But the only thing that was a challenge in TBC and flying was getting too close to the other faction's guards, right? They had some nasty arrows. And that's better than nothing, I guess.

TBC had flying guards above their camps and cities, as well as areas like Skettis and Ogri-La with flak canons. There were other areas with flying or ranged enemies that could aggro if you weren't careful.

And lets stop to consider that this was nearly a decade ago. I'd like to believe that Blizzard is capable of a hell of a lot more these days.

Yup, played since release. Yes the game was immersive and interesting, despite flying. The "best" zones were the ones you most likely played on the ground only, and flying only added convenience, especially for gathering professions. I've never heard anyone say that flying added a new dimension of fun and immersive gameplay to WoW.

Then you haven't been listening or looking in the right places. However, I'll grant that since WoD there hasn't even been an attempt to add new layers to the game via flying. It's just tacked on as an afterthought. But even then I've seen countless posts about how much relief players feel when they get flying back and don't have to deal with the bullshit on the ground.

I think it's less about convenience and more about bringing back the sense of wonder that flying gives. If Blizzard took the time to actually use it to enhance the experience instead of shitting on it, I think you might see more posts about it as well.

When were they ever a part of the experience, though? The Storm Peaks? I'm sorry, but I've yet to experience any great content based on that players should be able to fly. Please remind me.

So...you what....just never used your flying mount while in Stormpeaks or something? Are you going to tell me that you never flew down the canyons, or up to the top of the mountain? You didn't experience the world differently when flying to Ulduar, or to the Sons of Hodir quest area? You never looked down on the throngs of undead swaming around Icecrown and felt relief that you didn't have to try and fight through them. You never got out of the way of the Alliance or Horde gunships patrolling the skies, or avoided the bone dragons that would have eaten you if you got aggro?

Changing the experience with flying doesn't necessarily mean that there has to be direct combat or quests that use the flying mount. It could be as simple as creating the atmosphere of the zone like I just described. I swear some of you guys are so focused on ground Ground GROUUUUUNNNDDDD that you never look up to appreciate anything else.

Yes, it's annoying when you see "you're right on the spot" on the map, and there is no objective in sight, and you really should have taken the tunnel entrance halfway across the map. That will increase tenfold if we get more "3D maps" based on flying players.

Well, to be fair the minimap and regular map might need an upgrade to work with any sort of terrain design that uses the Z axis. Even in Legion zones where there are often multiple levels of caves or buildings, the map quickly becomes useless. I think you might be exaggerating when you say it will increase "tenfold", however. But a lot depends on the actual design of the content, and I think we can all agree that Blizzard needs to stop trying to waste people's time with mazes filled with daze-happy trash mobs.

[Saberstrike]

Flying is fine. Its addition just shed light on how little there is to do on the ground. The true way to fix the flying problem is to add more stuff worth doing on the ground, between where you are and your dungeon / raid / world quest.

[Aaronioslo]

then use ground mount only and stfu.

[Teri]

At the very least they should add Pandaria flying at 80, or Cata will be no doubt much faster to go 80-90. in 7.3.5.

[Ange]

Ground mounts allowed more random player to player interactions. But the game changed in many other areas too, so player to player interaction got cut left and right and the whole thing peaked with the wod-garrison singleplayer-MMO.

But as far as ganking goes...

DO YOU GUYS NOT REMEMBER STEALTH GROUPS FROM VANILLA???? YOU GOT CAMPED FOR HOURS BECAUSE THERE WAS NO ENDGAME FOR MANY PLAYERS.

I don't exaggerate! You logged in at 17:30 waited your 90-120min queue, got into the game and got ganked 5 minutes after because of the low quests/low farming areas/low respawn rate of mobs and then you got camped till 22:30 till you just gave up for the day. Welcome to vanilla leveling. I really hope the Classic servers will just be the same, so non-vanilla players can just go back to the current expansion and enjoy the greener side.

Players need endless grinds, even if they don't like it, they need it to not get borred and just harass each other as the only gaming goal.

[Teri]

Ground mounts allowed more random player to player interactions. But the game changed in many other areas too, so player to player interaction got cut left and right and the whole thing peaked with the wod-garrison singleplayer-MMO.

But as far as ganking goes...

DO YOU GUYS NOT REMEMBER STEALTH GROUPS FROM VANILLA???? YOU GOT CAMPED FOR HOURS BECAUSE THERE WAS NO ENDGAME FOR MANY PLAYERS.

One reason I gave up on our guild's RP-PVP realm project back in vanilla was mass-ganking in STV.

1-25 (Barrens) was fine, 15-27 was the occasional skirmish in Stonetalon, Ashenvale had some fights, but Stranglethorn was a slaughter.

Of course there was Hillsbrad too but many non-forsaken I know stuck to Kalimdor, it was a new server at the time, so the Southshore/Tarren mill wasn't huge yet.

But even on our main RP PvE realm, we had 2 rogues camping Orgrimmar, killing people who came out of battlegrounds in the Battlemaster room. Thankfully those rogues were my guild, not my enemy.