Thank God for no changes to mythic 20man in BfA.

[Wvvtayy]

Can all the people still crying over heroic ( mythic) 10 man going the way of the dodo stop holding on to hope now? This will be the third expansion now without it. And I'm glad too since balancing around 10m and 25m sucked and it also sucked how lazy 10man people got the same rewards as 25m despite being way easier to coordinate 10 people.

[Dangg]

I hope you go the way of the dodo in real life for calling people with a different game format preference 'lazy'.
You know - small team formats - which is actually more popular in modern gaming. More personal raid climate, less filler people.

20 man raids will be done sooner or later. If Blizz won't change the raid size then mythic+ will overtake it.

People want to play with their friends in 2017 and don't endure a few annoying strangers.

[Wvvtayy]

I hope you go the way of the dodo in real life for calling people with a different game format preference 'lazy'.
You know - small team formats - which is actually more popular in modern gaming. More personal raid climate, less filler people.

20 man raids will be done sooner or later. If Blizz won't change the raid size then mythic+ will overtake it.

People want to play with their friends in 2017 and don't endure a few annoying strangers.

Obviously they disagree with you because they already confirmed it's not changing in BfA.

[Fyersing]

You know - small team formats - which is actually more popular in modern gaming. More personal raid climate, less filler people.

Firstly, this.

The small-group format (i.e. 5-10) is more popular in MMO's, overall -- including the games which are currently considered to be the #2, #3 and #4 MMO's. So when people say "20/25/40 is better", they're simply not informed.

20 man raids will be done sooner or later. If Blizz won't change the raid size then mythic+ will overtake it.

Secondly, this. This is already happening and, by-and-large, M+ is brand new.

Overall, Blizzard likely had more viewed hours of livestream during the M+ Invitational than all of their previously sponsored raiding events combined. If they're fine with killing raids, instead of changing the aspect about them which has been the stated reasoning behind almost every major disband since WoD (Paragon, Blood Legion, Vodka, Serenity, etc.), more power to them. As it is, I'd prefer to snag any combination of the many people I've met over the years (who are amazing players but who have no interest in spending hundreds of hours wiping as you weed out the clinically retarded from the herd) and do high M+ keystones to the current clusterf**k that is recruiting 20-players.

If I didn't have the means to move all my characters to US-Sargeras when stuff started to go downhill, population wise, I would've quit this game years ago. Just log into something like... US-Ravenholdt or US-Garrosh, you couldn't even find 20 people in /trade even if your only requirements were "Must Be Able to Read English".

Obviously they disagree with you because they already confirmed it's not changing in BfA.

They confirmed they had no plans. It's not the same thing.

Semantics aside, it could also be that they simply don't care about what resources are wasted for creating and testing raids -- because it's a small price to pay.

[Teri]

20 man raids will be done sooner or later. If Blizz won't change the raid size then mythic+ will overtake it.

M+ won't replace Raiding in BfA, you won't get your super-titanforged Chest/Head/Shoulders from weekly M+ chest as they cannot even Warforge at all.

[Baconeggcheese]

I'm sad about it, I miss 25 man. 20 man is so much more constricting and difficult to keep everyone happy vs 25 man.

And on the other hand, I had 0 issue with 10 man existing. I didn't bother with it because it wasn't my thing, but it didn't at all take away from my experience either so *shrug*.

And I can't say that raiding has seen much benefit from the player end from consolidating to 1 size. The raids aren't noticeably better than they were in the past, so we're just not getting anything out of this situation.

[Aaronioslo]

Firstly, this.

The small-group format (i.e. 5-10) is more popular in MMO's, overall -- including the games which are currently considered to be the #2, #3 and #4 MMO's. So when people say "20/25/40 is better", they're simply not informed.



Secondly, this. This is already happening and, by-and-large, M+ is brand new.

Overall, Blizzard likely had more viewed hours of livestream during the M+ Invitational than all of their previously sponsored raiding events combined. If they're fine with killing raids, instead of changing the aspect about them which has been the stated reasoning behind almost every major disband since WoD (Paragon, Blood Legion, Vodka, Serenity, etc.), more power to them. As it is, I'd prefer to snag any combination of the many people I've met over the years (who are amazing players but who have no interest in spending hundreds of hours wiping as you weed out the clinically retarded from the herd) and do high M+ keystones to the current clusterf**k that is recruiting 20-players.

If I didn't have the means to move all my characters to US-Sargeras when stuff started to go downhill, population wise, I would've quit this game years ago. Just log into something like... US-Ravenholdt or US-Garrosh, you couldn't even find 20 people in /trade even if your only requirements were "Must Be Able to Read English".



They confirmed they had no plans. It's not the same thing.

Semantics aside, it could also be that they simply don't care about what resources are wasted for creating and testing raids -- because it's a small price to pay.

I don't raid so its a waste of resource.

good for you if you enjoy repeating the same 10 dungeons for the entirety of the expansion

[slime]

I don't raid so its a waste of resource.

good for you if you enjoy repeating the same 10 dungeons for the entirety of the expansion

10? lol fuck that, I do 1 every week... Upper Kara only. No thanks for the other 9 when there is one that is blatantly easier/faster than the rest and rewards are the same. Before Kara was released... it was only Maw I ran.

[Arainie]

They confirmed they had no plans. It's not the same thing.

Ion actually did say outright that they are going to keep Mythic at 20man for BfA and any foreseeable future, and he specifically listed the reasons as to why. Without going back to watch the dev interview I obviously won't remember it word for word, but encounter design is far easier for a group of 20 for several reasons. 10 players doesn't offer a great diversity in class and role distribution (think of things like armageddon soaking on KJ, orb tanking on Gul'dan etc) and is also very sensitive to cooldown mechanics, which is also one of the reasons as to why flexible Mythic raiding isn't possible to balance properly without risking guilds benching half of their team for some progress bosses (which is something he said they're not happy to promote). If you're still not convinced, go watch the latest dev interview for yourself. I think you can find it on the Warcraft channel on Twitch!

Now as to why the Mythic+ invitational event playoff had more viewers than the gimmick raid streams did in the past I'm not sure is worth disussing at all. It's pretty obvious that a competitive event involving the entire community (qualifiers) culminating in a global finals is going to attract more viewers than a single speedclear of a farm raid as a gimmick event on Blizzcon.

[Aaronioslo]

10? lol fuck that, I do 1 every week... Upper Kara only. No thanks for the other 9 when there is one that is blatantly easier/faster than the rest and rewards are the same. Before Kara was released... it was only Maw I ran.

good for you, for players like you, anything would be a waste of resource.

[slime]

good for you, for players like you, anything would be a waste of resource.

And yet they cater to me. How sad for you.

[Aaronioslo]

And yet they cater to me. How sad for you.

must be interesting living in that reality of yours.

keep it up, hahahaha

there will be only one dungeon for you in BfA, oh wait...

[Fyersing]

Ion actually did say outright that they are going to keep Mythic at 20man for BfA and any foreseeable future, and he specifically listed the reasons as to why. Without going back to watch the dev interview I obviously won't remember it word for word, but encounter design is far easier for a group of 20 for several reasons. 10 players doesn't offer a great diversity in class and role distribution (think of things like armageddon soaking on KJ, orb tanking on Gul'dan etc) and is also very sensitive to cooldown mechanics, which is also one of the reasons as to why flexible Mythic raiding isn't possible to balance properly without risking guilds benching half of their team for some progress bosses (which is something he said they're not happy to promote). If you're still not convinced, go watch the latest dev interview for yourself. I think you can find it on the Warcraft channel on Twitch!

I expect it's from the Jesse Cox interview, so I'll look for the transcript.

The bolded bit is what I find issue with. It's a peculiar position for Blizzard to take, citing mechanics which are almost universally reviled as justification for keeping the 20-player mandate alive -- it's little different than saying, "people hate Battlefront II, therefore we should make Battlefront III a clone of Battlefront II".

Now as to why the Mythic+ invitational event playoff had more viewers than the gimmick raid streams did in the past I'm not sure is worth disussing at all. It's pretty obvious that a competitive event involving the entire community (qualifiers) culminating in a global finals is going to attract more viewers than a single speedclear of a farm raid as a gimmick event on Blizzcon.

I said any sponsored event, which means anything they've promoted or highlighted through social media (even for private parties).

The long and short of the situation is that M+, as it currently exists, is both more accessible and more convenient insofar as end-game progression mediums go. Additionally, and owing to the aforementioned convenience, it's infinitely more marketable to viewership (i.e. You're much more likely to watch a 15-45 minute "Match" than you are to watch 12-hours of raid progression).

I very much doubt they'll remove raiding, but by not lowering the requisite number of players (even after like 8 out of 10 of the World First contenders over the last 4 years have disbanded, many times citing recruitment and roster maintenance as a primary or secondary issue) they're essentially abandoning it, spiritually. Which is a shame, because at least with 10-man Mythic being an option, it could just limp it's way forward for a few more years until M+ finally eclipses it in every way.

[Deleted]

Yeah, who cares really. M+ gives just as good loot as Mythic, it's more challenging, more fun and you don't have to recruit 20+reserves.
With the introduction of eSports events, Blizzard will focus more and more on making M+ great because that attracts viewers and people.

M+ is superior to mythic raiding.

But each to their own. If you want to do your old fashioned raid grinding OP - go ahead and have fun. I'm not going to bother. M+ is better.

[Sithalos]

20 man mythic is a thing because Blizzard is too lazy to balance 10/25. Not because it's better.

[Aaronioslo]

more challenging, more fun

nice joke, I laughed

[gushDH]

20 man mythic is a thing because Blizzard is too lazy to balance 10/25. Not because it's better.

You can't quantify the fact that 10 people are easier to organize, so you can't balance using that parameter.

[Arainie]

I expect it's from the Jesse Cox interview, so I'll look for the transcript.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...on-Hazzikostas

The summary doesn't do the whole interview justice though, but it does address the key points.

I very much doubt they'll remove raiding, but by not lowering the requisite number of players (even after like 8 out of 10 of the World First contenders over the last 4 years have disbanded, many times citing recruitment and roster maintenance as a primary or secondary issue) they're essentially abandoning it, spiritually. Which is a shame, because at least with 10-man Mythic being an option, it could just limp it's way forward for a few more years until M+ finally eclipses it in every way.

I believe this is a huge misconception. None of the WoW guilds quit because they couldn't manage a 20-man roster, I would argue most of them disbanded or stopped raiding because several key members decided to quit hardcore raiding overall, much due to the huge time investment it brings with it. People move on from the game, and if you can't find replacements at equivalent skill levels you're going to suffer as a group which leads to others moving on to where the grass is greener. Reducing the raid size is only a bandaid fix until the next group of influential players quit, you'll struggle equally hard to replace them (even if the problem can be a bit less apparent in a 10 man guild than a 25 man guild). I myself would probably lose interest in raiding if it was a 10-man activity only, so I'm obviously as biased towards larger sizes as you are towards smaller. I have however managed two 25/20 man guilds ever since WotLK and I do not agree that it's as complicated as some of you make it out to be. I don't believe you'll ever see the same sustainability among 10 man guilds as you do in larger groups, mostly because they're made up of a group of friends who decide to raid a tier or two together and then collectively quit to play another game.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

I hope you go the way of the dodo in real life for calling people with a different game format preference 'lazy'.
You know - small team formats - which is actually more popular in modern gaming. More personal raid climate, less filler people.

20 man raids will be done sooner or later. If Blizz won't change the raid size then mythic+ will overtake it.

People want to play with their friends in 2017 and don't endure a few annoying strangers.

You don't bring strangers though lol. Is that seriously your best argument? Large group raiding is what the game should be about. People asking for 10 man is why we need a classic server at this point. It should have never happened in the first placed.

[Deleted]

nice joke, I laughed

Have fun with 7 shitty faceroll bosses and a few that are tuned to Method. Lol. Great raids, very tuned gg