Are Horde players satisfied with their racial leaders and their (lack) of evolution?

[Ramz]

I cant wait for warchief Vol'jin to come back and do nothing again.

That wasn't his fault that devs did't use his potential. I am kinsa hoping he will be back with physical form but afterwards he will hide his identity and join war again't Kul'Tiras. Kinda Batman style. Only to reveal he is back at the wnd of expansion. Sure it doesn't fix the dosaster of Legion's writing but it would somehow pay off.

[Zulkhan]

Yeah, we kind of had something like that with Varian

Mmmh, nay. Varian was blessed by a demi-god and may have got a power boost but he didn't become a literal demi-god himself, living in some other plane of existence completely or similar shit.

[Mellrod]

It is one of the biggest complaints Horde players have, is that their leaders are mostly carboard, and are killed off with no replacements (Vol'jin), or a carbon copy takes their place (Baine.)

I'd argue that Horde leaders have actually had the most development across recent expansions if not all of them, when compared to the Alliance. Cataclysm & Pandaria were almost all about conflicts in Horde leadership and passing of the torch between Horde characters, Warlords only happened because of previous events with the Horde, and even now there is still tons of character development going on with Horde leaders in Legion (mainly in Sylvanas).

To say that there hasn't been any change, evolution, or character development amongst the Horde simply wouldn't be true. Now compare that to the Alliance. Nowhere near as much turmoil or falling-out between nations. For the most part the alliance has been pretty buddy-buddy in their relationship with eachother, and i'd argue that symmetry in their relationship makes them more cardboard than the Horde.

[Mehrunes]

That wasn't his fault that devs did't use his potential. I am kinsa hoping he will be back with physical form but afterwards he will hide his identity and join war again't Kul'Tiras. Kinda Batman style. Only to reveal he is back at the wnd of expansion. Sure it doesn't fix the dosaster of Legion's writing but it would somehow pay off.

It's hard to use that which does not exist. And why would he need to hide his identity? Is he such a great threat that Garroshes from other universes will come hunt him down? Will he do that to give the Alliance a fair fight because they'd shit their pants to death if they were aware it's him, spoiling the spirit of competition?

[Ramz]

It's hard to use that which does not exist.

well that's like your opinion man. In SotH he was doing just fine, same with thwarthing all oposition in all troll instances and managing other racial forces which is not something every other racial leader has done.

And why would he need to hide his identity?

To not be abruptly thrown into Horde politics, to have time to figure out things on his own, work again for his position and get a fame both as a general and a fighter. To proove himself again to Zandalari and spread again fear to Kul'Tiras. For cool factor. For players that were disappointed with the writing he got. And many more.

as Is he such a great threat that Garroshes from other universes will come hunt him down?

Like what the literal fuck?

Will he do that to give the Alliance a fair fight because they'd shit their pants to death if they were aware it's him, spoiling the spirit of competition?

He Was causing nightmares in alliance soldiers minds. He was meriless during founding of Durotar campaigns, he was the one that was pushing Thrall to get rid of them entirely.

I know wery well your opinion of him, and I don't think there is anything new you can add. I know it's quite a shocker for you but quite a lot of people liked him and still want him back. So it would be better for all of us for him to be back and show what he is truly capale off instead of keeping Darkspears the way they are now. They are part of the Horde and we would all benefit from good story for them. Unless you are happy with Horde being elven faction.

[Akani]

Zul'jin, Garrosh, Kael'thas, Kargath, Rend as instance bosses.

You forgot: Varimathras, Draenosh Saurfang, Warlord Zaela, and Nazgrim.

Blizz loves killing Horde leaders/heroes. Mostly as dungeon/raid bosses.

[Wildberry]

same with thwarthing all oposition in all troll instances.

Oh, you mean that time he attacked two city-states that had fallen under siege, and been thoroughly plundered with the majority of their leadership killed just five or so years prior, because he had advance knowledge of their plan (which required no merit or skill on his part)? Man, kicking down the door of Zul'Aman must've been so hard after Zul'jin had been killed!

They are part of the Horde and we would all benefit from good story for them. Unless you are happy with Horde being elven faction.

I'd much rather they have the Horde than hand it off to the Trolls.

I know it's quite a shocker for you but quite a lot of people liked him and still want him back.

Quite a lot of people hated him and don't want him back. Alternatively, quite a lot of people like Garrosh and want him back.

You forgot: Varimathras, Draenosh Saurfang, Warlord Zaela, and Nazgrim.

Blizz loves killing Horde leaders/heroes. Mostly as dungeon/raid bosses.

Don't forget Gorefiend.

Not my intent to join the debate but I would like to clarify that Sylvanas and Doomhammer are at least similar when it comes to naked pragmatism

Oh, they're both pragmatic, no doubt. I just think sharing pragmatism isn't really enough to be drawing such comparisons.

Now, although Garrosh, Sylvanas and Doomhammer all would like to start a war to expand horde territory, Sylvanas and Dooomhammer's conquest are driven by a more pragmatical need, the need to survival, to not to be wiped out by opponents, for which they need lands/bodies/resources. But on contrary, Garrosh's innermost driving is to prove the supremacy of himself, or the so-called "true horde" as he invented. Sylvanas and Doomhammer both are not interested in proving anything to anyone.

Garrosh literally started his war because the people of Orgrimmar were starving after trade with the Night Elves had been cut and all diplomatic avenues for restoring trade had failed. The Horde's resources, constant Alliance incursions, and the economic dependence the Horde had on a hostile faction were some of the primary motivations for Garrosh's attitudes towards the Alliance in general. The Orc supremacy, and Hellscream legacy bit came later.

Doomhammer did not plot much after he became warchief, but as we have seen in the new book, the ability of plotting is also seriously limited when Sylvanas became warchief.

Doomhammer doesn't "plot" after taking the mantle of Warchief because it's not in his character. Sylvanas doesn't plot after becoming Warchief because she can't despite the fact that it is in her character. There's no similarity to be drawn between a character who willingly does X and another who is forced to do X by circumstances.

Garrosh made extensive use of secrete plot, mostly to suppress the people who did not agree with him. But Sylvanas and Doomhammer's plots focused more on external enemy.

You do realize that Garrosh's most notorious plots were Theramore and the Divine Bell incident, right? The suppression of dissent was done pretty openly, without much proper plotting.

Garrosh, empowered by his Orc supremacy, did not really consider the question "is our enemy capable of wiping us out". For this reason, Sylvanas and Doomhammer were more than willing to do something to make their allies/subjects happy but Garrosh had the habit of making enemy among his own ranks.

Garrosh, in both "The Shattering" and "Tides of War" seeks to "convert" his allies into thinking his way. He's convinced, in "The Shattering" that should he deliver results, Cairne and Thrall will see things his way. In "Tides of War" he's under the impression that Baine et al. will stop questioning him once they see Theramore.

He didn't properly gauge their commitment to the war effort, true; however, he was making an attempt to bring allies on board with his platform.

With regard to Doomhammer, abandoning the attack on Quel'thalas to march on Lordaeron left a pretty sour taste in Zul'jin's mouth.

So in a summary, Sylvanas, Garrosh and Doomhammer differ from Thrall in the sense that the former three are much more willing to engage in a war while Thrall would do his best to ensure peace. In term of conducting the war, all the threes warlike warchiefs are willing to conduct deeds that are morally questionable. However, while Sylvanas and Doomhammer are capable of judging the situation on a pragmatic basis, Garrosh's judgement is often clouded by his sense "Orcs is the best".

Like I told Zulkhan, both are pragmatic, but pragmatism alone isn't enough to be drawing parallels in the manner that you are. Additionally, saying that Sylvanas "in comparison to other Warchiefs" is most like Doomhammer isn't just not true, the relativism there makes it a useless observation. To illustrate this very clearly, look at Thrall. Which Warchief is most like Thrall? If we're just looking at Sylvanas, Garrosh and Doomhammer (And I'm laughing at Vol'jin being left out), it's a pretty worthless comparison. Sure one could be argued to be more like Thrall than the others, but whoever that may be would still be extraordinarily different from Thrall. Doomhammer is in a similar boat.

[Deleted]

@Wildberry would you like someone like genn in the horde? you used to like him in wc2 do you think they do his character justice or not
i believe someone like him would fit the horde

[Friendlyimmolation]

@Wildberry would you like someone like genn in the horde? you used to like him in wc2 do you think they do his character justice or not
i believe someone like him would fit the horde

I know I am not Wildberry, but Genn , (other than maybe Anduin, I like him now, will see how he grows in BFA) is the only good Alliance leader left.

[Zulkhan]

@Wildberry would you like someone like genn in the horde? you used to like him in wc2 do you think they do his character justice or not
i believe someone like him would fit the horde

I don't see anything about Genn who fits the Horde in particular. He's kind of a resentful hardliner but that's a character who can fit anywhere, that's not what defines the factions anyway.

[Arrashi]

@Wildberry would you like someone like genn in the horde? you used to like him in wc2 do you think they do his character justice or not
i believe someone like him would fit the horde

I would trade Ji, Baine, Vol'jin and Gallyvix for him alone.

[Deleted]

I know I am not Wildberry, but Genn , (other than maybe Anduin, I like him now, will see how he grows in BFA) is the only good Alliance leader left.

wow i didnt expect from you to say something like that i am very surprised! good to see you like a leader of the alliance especially genn

I don't see anything about Genn who fits the Horde in particular. He's kind of a resentful hardliner but that's a character who can fit anywhere, that's not what defines the factions anyway.

who knows if garrosh didnt order the invasion of gilneas maybe genn could join the horde. forsaken could help find a cure for their curse or maintain it with so many apothecaries they have. gilneas wasnt alliance. it was just a cursed human kingdom. anything could happen!
do you like genn or you want him dead?

[Gaaz]

Horde needs someone like Gul'Dan as a leader. I mean in terms of character. A pro-Horde one obviously, not a pro-Legion one. Sylvanas does not really fit the bill. Garrosh was too maniacal for it as well. Not really sure if Horde has anyone like that.

[Zulkhan]

do you like genn or you want him dead?

It's like asking if I like Sylvanas or I want her dead.

[Deleted]

It's like asking if I like Sylvanas or I want her dead.

but they are not the same maybe similar but they have other big differences. opinions could change through expansions. i used to give genn 6/10 now i give him 8 or 9

[Friendlyimmolation]

wow i didnt expect from you to say something like that i am very surprised! good to see you like a leader of the alliance especially genn

I've been saying Genn was my favorite character Alliance side since like, his inception in WoW. He's a/was a dick but hes a believable character with believable motivations.

[Wildberry]

@Wildberry would you like someone like genn in the horde? you used to like him in wc2 do you think they do his character justice or not
i believe someone like him would fit the horde

Considering we currently have to deal with characters like Baine? Yeah, absolutely.

With regard to whether or not they're doing Genn justice though, they're not. It's sad, because he was the one Alliance leader I actually liked, but he's been butchered in WoW. He used to be an unapologetic, mildly xenophobic King concerned heavily with politicking. Now he's just another staunch supporter of the Alliance. If we had Warcraft II Genn, we'd be much better off story-wise. He should have thrown a fit over attacking Orgrimmar while Gilneas was in ruins. He should have, following the war, been pushing for a concentrated effort to retake the Northern Eastern Kingdoms, while using Danath Trollbane and Isiden Perenolde to bolster his position. He should have harassed Varian about the things Gilneas paid for, and how the Alliance isn't doing much for him. Hell, right now he should be trying to push Calia, against her will, into making a claim for Lordaeron.

But instead of any of the politics that defined him, instead of the "Gilneas first" attitude that he was noted for, we get another generic "Lawful Good Character who expresses mild discontent every now and then due to a tragic backstory, but wholeheartedly supports the organization he's currently in." Warcraft has plenty of those. We didn't need more, and we certainly didn't need to butcher the one interesting Alliance character to shoehorn another such character in.

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Garrosh

too maniacal

[so we need]

Gul'Dan

Literally what?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Horde needs someone like Gul'Dan as a leader. I mean in terms of character. A pro-Horde one obviously, not a pro-Legion one. Sylvanas does not really fit the bill. Garrosh was too maniacal for it as well. Not really sure if Horde has anyone like that.

What.

/10

[Zulkhan]

but they are not the same

They don't need to be the same to regard them the same way.

To give a more trasparent answer: I don't really care about both either way. I don't want them to die as much as I don't particularly desire to see them alive. However, if I have to choose, I would probably lean over Genn by a slight margin by the right of being the only Alliance character I find somewhat entertaining at least, surely more than people like Velen, Anduin, the Dwarven council or those two Night Elf imbeciles (Jaina's flip flopping has stopped to be funny a long time ago).

[so we need]

Literally what?

Yeah, that sounded weird even to me. If he said Doomhammer I would have understood but Gul'dan is the very one guy so awful he makes literally everyone looks fairly decent.

[Deleted]

Considering we currently have to deal with characters like Baine? Yeah, absolutely.

With regard to whether or not they're doing Genn justice though, they're not. It's sad, because he was the one Alliance leader I actually liked, but he's been butchered in WoW. He used to be an unapologetic, mildly xenophobic King concerned heavily with politicking. Now he's just another staunch supporter of the Alliance. If we had Warcraft II Genn, we'd be much better off story-wise. He should have thrown a fit over attacking Orgrimmar while Gilneas was in ruins. He should have, following the war, been pushing for a concentrated effort to retake the Northern Eastern Kingdoms, while using Danath Trollbane and Isiden Perenolde to bolster his position. He should have harassed Varian about the things Gilneas paid for, and how the Alliance isn't doing much for him. Hell, right now he should be trying to push Calia, against her will, into making a claim for Lordaeron.

But instead of any of the politics that defined him, instead of the "Gilneas first" attitude that he was noted for, we get another generic "Lawful Good Character who expresses mild discontent every now and then due to a tragic backstory, but wholeheartedly supports the organization he's currently in." Warcraft has plenty of those. We didn't need more, and we certainly didn't need to butcher the one interesting Alliance character to shoehorn another such character in.

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[so we need]

Literally what?

what you mention is great and i strongly agree with you....but here is the problem..i am sure you have noticed that many people deman genns death because he is a dick. imagine if he did the above things you said. everyone would hate him even more. he is a such a unique character with awesome potential its a disgrace that after eight years he fights and sacrifites his people for the alliance while gilneas that he loves so much is in ruins. in bfa he will probably take it back from what we know so far