Anduin Wyrnn

[-aiko-]

Why did you use your own quote as your signature?

Why not?

[Shibito]

I kind of welcome the horde to try tbh... might finally force the alliance factional leaders to finally put their foot down and end the horde.

I don't particularly care for Anduin, but i do like the tears

another alliance fanboy talking shit

[pateuvasiliu]

In any reality where a person has an ineffable and eternal essence, an aspect of oneself which continues on forever, no act can be so heinous or terrible as to destroy that essence.

And in a reality where life can end, and the soul can be sent into inky blackness to be lost forever, preserving it in the world with other souls can be seen as mercy.

Either of them can be viewed negatively or positively, depending on whether a person's morality is utilitarian or not.

Ahuh. Sure.

And Mengele was a nice guy because he killed a few to make advancements for billions, amirite?

Such a nice guy.

[Rufus1]

A beard would suit him well imo.

[Steampunkette]

Ahuh. Sure.

And Mengele was a nice guy because he killed a few to make advancements for billions, amirite?

Such a nice guy.

Your Mengele reference would more accurately apply to Illidan rather than Sylvanas. In that he viewed his victims as a "Sacrifice", a cost for a greater benefit of others. Sylvanas tends to kill to protect her own, or on the orders of her leader, which removes any goal-oriented nature of her actions. There's no "Greater Good" she kills for.

Don't get me wrong, in an objective externalist perspective Sylvanas is evil by all western standards. Just pointing out that justifying Illidan's murders is like justifying Sylvanas's crimes: Painting white that which is cracked. You've changed the tone without repairing the underlying damage.

[Deleted]

What exactly do people hate about him?

Or is this more about reflecting their own personal looks and life to that of a videogame character?

[pateuvasiliu]

Your Mengele reference would more accurately apply to Illidan rather than Sylvanas. In that he viewed his victims as a "Sacrifice", a cost for a greater benefit of others. Sylvanas tends to kill to protect her own, or on the orders of her leader, which removes any goal-oriented nature of her actions. There's no "Greater Good" she kills for.

Don't get me wrong, in an objective externalist perspective Sylvanas is evil by all western standards. Just pointing out that justifying Illidan's murders is like justifying Sylvanas's crimes: Painting white that which is cracked. You've changed the tone without repairing the underlying damage.

Illidan killed to destroy a faction that took over most of the universe.

Sylvanas kills in Cata because she wants more land.

[Steampunkette]

Illidan killed to destroy a faction that took over most of the universe.

Sylvanas kills in Cata because she wants more land.

And had Illidan killed his enemy rather than his allies we wouldn't be having this discussion, but like Mengele he slaughtered innocents to fight what he perceived as a great evil (Disease/Toxins/Demons). If he'd -only- killed demons it wouldn't be a thing, but he slaughtered the Moon Guard, his own allies, to empower himself to destroy the Demons.

Sylvanas kills in Cata because she was ordered to by Garrosh (Her Sovereign Ruler) during Wartime because the Horde (ostensibly) needed resources at the time. The evil aspect of her act comes in the use of chemical weapons developed by poisoning prisoners, which is something Mengele did. Her acts, there, could certainly be compared to his, but a land war? Not really comparable.

Are you suggesting that Illidan's murder and subsequent consumption of the Moon Guard for use as weaponized soul-energy to use against the Legion is a justified action? If so, that would be a Consequentialist Utilitarian viewpoint.

[Dristereau]

1 - Manduin is actually one of my favourite characters in the game. They just need to stop with the Priest thing and make him an actual Paladin now. Please Blizz

[pateuvasiliu]

And had Illidan killed his enemy rather than his allies we wouldn't be having this discussion, but like Mengele he slaughtered innocents to fight what he perceived as a great evil (Disease/Toxins/Demons). If he'd -only- killed demons it wouldn't be a thing, but he slaughtered the Moon Guard, his own allies, to empower himself to destroy the Demons.

Sylvanas kills in Cata because she was ordered to by Garrosh (Her Sovereign Ruler) during Wartime because the Horde (ostensibly) needed resources at the time. The evil aspect of her act comes in the use of chemical weapons developed by poisoning prisoners, which is something Mengele did. Her acts, there, could certainly be compared to his, but a land war? Not really comparable.

Are you suggesting that Illidan's murder and subsequent consumption of the Moon Guard for use as weaponized soul-energy to use against the Legion is a justified action? If so, that would be a Consequentialist Utilitarian viewpoint.

War? She invaded farmer villages. Southshore was a fisherman town and Hillsbrad Fields was a farmer town.

And you're comparing Illidan killing a bunch of Moon Guard to Sylvanas killing and raising thousands. I wouldn't even mind the killing that much as it's war, but forcing undeath on them when she was complaining that undeath is a curse back in Vanilla is hypocritical and evil.

[Steampunkette]

War? She invaded farmer villages. Southshore was a fisherman town and Hillsbrad Fields was a farmer town.

And you're comparing Illidan killing a bunch of Moon Guard to Sylvanas killing and raising thousands. I wouldn't even mind the killing that much as it's war, but forcing undeath on them when she was complaining that undeath is a curse back in Vanilla is hypocritical and evil.

Southshore and the other Hillsbrad settlements were a part of the Alliance, the Horde's avowed enemy during wartime. There were military outposts in Hilsbrad, including towers and a keep, and all other lands were being conquered. Even if their military presence is minimal (A few guards and the like) conquest of enemy territory is generally viewed as a function of war. The slaughter of innocents would be a different matter, of course.

And no. I'm not comparing Illidan killing a bunch of Moon Guard to Sylvanas killing and raising thousands for several reasons!

The first, of course, being that we don't know how many Sylvanas has killed and/or raised (Because sometimes she only does one or the other) or how many Moon Guard people that Illidan sacrificed and stole the souls of to use as an energy source that he spent to fight against the Legion. But that's just a matter of numbers, really, and if your morality is based on numbers that number should be 1.

Secondly, Raising the Dead in a universe in which souls exist is probably a bad thing, since the soul is apparently marred by the process. But marring a soul must certainly be less evil than -destroying- a soul. In the same way cutting someone with a knife in our world is less evil than killing them.

As to the Hypocrisy and Evil of raising the dead: She knows undeath is a curse, but is a curse not better than the Oblivion she faced when she threw herself from the spire of Icecrown Citadel? Could learning that eternal nothingness is what each of us face in the hereafter have changed her mind? Absolutely. You could argue that it is Hypocritical, but it's just as possible that she's changed her position over time with new information. Y'know. As you do.

She is evil, though. No question about that, with all the torture and human experimentation. But allow me to frame her use of undeath in a different perspective:

As a hapless bystander or a soldier during a war, would you rather die and be dead as a casualty thereof, or die and be brought back to life and given the choice between returning to death, fighting for the person who just resurrected you, or fucking off on your own path because you've got free will and the person who brought you back is big on choice?

For my part, I think the latter option would be less evil than leaving me dead. I get the choice to come back and get back to what I was doing, continue my work, spend time with my family, and play more WoW. Sure it kinda sucks that I can't taste or smell as well as I could, before, and my looks are -shot-, but... I'd still be able to do the stuff I love rather than being dead, so that's a big plus? It'd kind of be like being gravely wounded and living with a -serious- set of disabilities rather than being dead-dead.

And please don't argue that Undeath is "Unnatural". It's a force in the universe, canonically, and can occur naturally without any person using "dark magic" to enact it. Like Ghosts, Skeletons on Battlefields, and the occasional ghost-hound or whatever. In fact Trolls, who are able to be both Shamans and Druids, have a long running culture of mummifying their undead and enshrining them with honor. So. Y'know.

If the Illidan quest-chain is canon then either he does that or they all die cause they were sieged with no escape route (teleportation disrupted), also suramar would have fallen.



2:55~

He had a choice on whether to allow an evil to happen or to commit a terrible evil, himself, to prevent the first evil. And he chose to commit the terrible evil. Regardless of the consequences of his actions being positive, he still destroyed the eternal essence of those mages, he didn't just kill them he -destroyed- them. No power in the WoW Universe can restore them to life, not even the Val'kyr or the Titans because there's -nothing- left of the person they were.

To put it into real-world context, which is very difficult to do:

Imagine being trapped by an invading force with no weapons. Just you and a thousand or so people facing off against an army. You're a super-skilled swordsman, and with a sword, you could kill the entire enemy army all by yourself, saving all the nearby villages.

Lacking iron, you remember that the human body has iron in it. About 4 grams of it in an adult man's blood. So you figure out how much iron you'll need to make a sword using the equipment you have on hand (Average sword weight is 1.45 kilograms) so you kill 359 of the people you're in the cave with, take the iron from their blood, refine it, and craft yourself a sword to go kill the invading army all on your lonesome.

You saved the city and 641 of the people you were in a cave with. You're a hero! But... really... after murdering 359 men for their blood are you -really- a hero? Like... Good cause and all that, but shouldn't you have at least -asked- for volunteers? Discussed it with the others? Maybe workshopped some other ideas instead of taking it on yourself to kill 359 men to steal their blood to forge yourself a sword?

He committed a heinous act. He did it for a good reason, sure, but whether that act was Justified, or in fact justifiable at all, is a topic of -serious- debate...

[Soluna]

The wannabe Lich Queen vaulted onto the siege weapon, took out a bunch of rats, blew the weapon up, went full banshee mode, killed a couple more rats and gave the epic battle cry. Anduin just bawled his eyes out.

Oh please let Anduin be a raid boss.

Ye, she killed 4 normal soldiers and a siege weapon, big deal... Anduin one fucking shotted a dreadlord. Way to be biased man.

[Broken Fox]

Ye, she killed 4 normal soldiers and a siege weapon, big deal... Anduin one fucking shotted a dreadlord. Way to be biased man.

She’s killed dreadlords too though. Sylvanas would kick the shit out of Anduin.

[pseudodraco]

So with all her Banshee power she could kill 3 footmen? While Anduin rezzed Genn who, knowing the old wolf, murdered every Horde he could find.

That rezz/heal was Play of the Game.

genn AND the rest of the dead alliance peeps present. pretty impressive mass rez imo lol.

[pateuvasiliu]

She’s killed dreadlords too though. Sylvanas would kick the shit out of Anduin.

Sylvanas would get turned to ash. The Light tends to hate evil bastards.

[pseudodraco]

Sylvannas - "FUCK YEAH! Our DPS is awesome, we'll win this battleground in no time.... oh SHIT they brought healers."

Healers win battlegrounds

I had to stop myself from actually laughing in the middle of my calc lecture. good shit lol

- - - Updated - - -

Gotta love the Anduin-was-staring-at-bright-light argument on why he was teared up. Come on, he's obviously an emotional person, who doesn't mind letting it flow when his body wants it. Even with tears he's pulling his weight.

probably little bit of both. yes, he's emotional over having to fight when all he wants is peace but he is also staring at a huge beam of Light. Old actor trick to make your eyes water on camera, look into a bright light. so little bit of column a, little bit of column b

[Morth]

Honestly? 1.
And that's only because he actually listened to the rabid dog Genn to launch an assault on Undercity.
I wasn't entirely sure earlier about his character but ever since MoP I've started liking him more and more and he's become quite interesting, far more interesting than any of the other leaders that are still alive on both sides.

Because Blizzard hasn't developing the other leaders like the dwarfs, gnomes, goblins, taurens and blood elves.

[KindaichiShota]

10
I want to smash

[Soluna]

She’s killed dreadlords too though. Sylvanas would kick the shit out of Anduin.

Oh you mean just like how every undead gets turned to cinders and ash when they approach the light?

[Deleted]

-10. His growth has been interesting to follow.