FT: Council of Europe Russia sanctions could be lifted

[Shalcker]

Council of Europe chief fears Moscow may quit organisation

Sanctions on Russia could be lifted to keep it in pro-democracy body

The Council of Europe, the leading pro-democracy body in the region, is considering lifting sanctions it imposed over Russia’s aggression in Ukraine for fear Moscow could otherwise pull out — dealing a blow to human rights protection.

Moscow is demanding its voting rights be restored in the parliamentary assembly of the council, which oversees the 1949 human rights convention and European Court of Human Rights. Russia was stripped of them over its 2014 annexation of Crimea.

Thorbjorn Jagland, the council’s secretary-general, is touring European capitals warning of a serious risk that Moscow could withdraw or crash out of the 47-member body unless its demands are met. That would deprive 140m Russians of access to the Strasbourg-based court, where Russia accounts for a third of the caseload.

“It would really be very, very bad if Russia was to leave . . . because the convention and court has been so important for Russian citizens,” Mr Jagland told the FT in an interview. “It will be a negative development for Europe, because we will have a Europe without Russia. It would be a big step back for Europe.”

However, Ukraine and its supporters have warned that re-admitting Russia to the council assembly without concessions on Crimea or the conflict in eastern Ukraine would be caving in to blackmail by Moscow.

They say it could set off a chain reaction of weakening sanctions by other bodies, notably the EU. “It would be the first hole in the wall,” said one Ukrainian official.

The Council of Europe, which is separate from the EU, along with the human rights convention and ECHR are central pillars of Europe’s democratic order. Bringing Russia into the council in 1996 was seen as a key achievement of the post-cold war period.

Russia in the summer suspended its annual €33m payment into the council’s €450m budget. It said it would not recognise a new European commissioner on human rights to be elected in January, as long as it has no vote.

Valentina Matviyenko, head of Russia’s upper chamber and an ally of president Vladimir Putin, warned recently that Moscow might cease complying with European rights court decisions if it could not vote on officials and judges. Russia has already passed a law allowing its constitutional court to exempt it from fulfilling Strasbourg judgments.

Mr Jagland denied rumours that Moscow officials had threatened a pullout in private meetings with him. But he warned that refusing to pay into the budget or implement court judgments could lead to Russia’s departure on its own or other states’ initiative.

“My understanding is that this may happen,” he said. “The big political question is do we want this political development.

“Nobody wants to give a signal that we accept the annexation of Crimea. It is not about undermining this position of principle. But . . . we have to keep in perspective: what is our mandate. Our mandate is to protect human rights in Russia and Crimea, or wherever people live on the continent.”

The former Norwegian prime minister is pressing for dialogue between European ministers and the council’s assembly on resolving the issue before the assembly decides in January on extending Russia’s voting ban. Talks are also under way within the parliamentary assembly on restoring Russia’s voting rights and some leading members have launched procedural moves aimed at allowing this to happen.

Opponents of an unconditional deal with Russia say that it would set a precedent for others accused of backsliding on democracy, such as Hungary and Poland, and for Turkey and Azerbaijan, which have serious disputes with the council. Ankara recently cut its budget payment because of monitoring imposed of Turkey’s crackdown on government critics after last year’s failed coup.

Those against an unconditional deal also fears that re-embracing Russia before presidential elections in March would be a gift to Mr Putin.

Ukraine says Russia’s hints at withdrawal from the human rights body are an empty threat it would never fulfil in reality.

Dmytro Kuleba, Ukraine’s ambassador to the council, warned that reconciliation “without Moscow paying any price will mean that this organisation will discredit itself both in Ukraine and across the region”.

“If it happens, Ukraine will review our relations with the Council of Europe,” he added.

Tanya Lokshina of Human Rights Watch in Moscow said that campaigners there were increasingly concerned that Moscow would exit the 47-member body. “The European court . . . has been the most successful international protection mechanism” for rights in Russia, she said. It was the “court of last resort in a situation when they cannot find justice in domestic courts”.

[Lanrefni]

I think some one needs to look into Thorbjorn Jagland's personal finances,I'm guessing he's now quite a bit wealthier than he was last year......

[Toppy]

So sounds like this is boiling down to:

"Lift the sanctions regarding us being total pricks to everyone, or we'll start terrorizing our own"

Let them.

[Deleted]

Friendly reminder everyone, Council of Europe is unrelated to the EU.

[Shalcker]

So sounds like this is boiling down to:

"Lift the sanctions regarding us being total pricks to everyone, or we'll start terrorizing our own"

Let them.

It is more of "No payment or accepting jurisdiction without representation" - after all they want us to abide by European Court of Human Rights decisions (which is used quite extensively by opposition parties) and expect us to pay our share to Council of Europe yet refuse to give us vote in the Council.

[Shalcker]

Then leave the council.

Threat of that is exactly why Council of Europe is touring with idea to drop their sanctions.

That is literally what article is about.

Could happen as early as this January.

[zmp]

If sanctions against Russia gets lifted, would Russia buy our meat products again?

[tumppu]

The fact that russia and turkey are members of the council of europe, are the biggest speakers against it being useful in literally anything. Kick those two out and they could actually get shit done.

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Threat of that is exactly why Council of Europe is touring with idea to drop their sanctions.

That is literally what article is about.

Could happen as early as this January.

Do leave, please. We call your bluff. And I might not be talking about russia being in the CoE here...

[Shalcker]

Do leave, please. We call your bluff.

There is no bluff; we already stopped payments since there is no point in being member without vote.

Your EU bureaucrats need their Council of Europe, and we don't.

[Orbitus]

There is no bluff; we already stopped payments since there is no point in being member without vote.

Your EU bureaucrats need their Council of Europe, and we don't.

Yeah, I don't think anyone cares.

[Shalcker]

As per the article you posted, Russia pays 7,3% of the budget of the council, but Russian human rights cases amount to one third of the case load. Ordinary Russians benefit disproportionately from the Council.

And Council benefits by making themselves relevant. "See how many cases we got!"

Do you understand how bureaucracy works?

This is literally you once again posting how you prefer to take it in the ass from your government as long as there is a chance it will benefit the regime.

No point in relying on external forces to provide justice to citizens.

It was arrangement where Putin's clique went with "we respect your decisions on human rights, you give us investments", nothing else.

[Deleted]

And Council benefits by making themselves relevant. "See how many cases we got!"

Do you understand how bureaucracy works?

No point in relying on external forces to provide justice to citizens.

Those whose human rights issues are brought up through the court probably disagree.

If there is no assesment of results or accountability then one's agency could claim to have handled any amount of issues of any nature - no Russia needed to provide actual cases. And by definition it would not be easy to distinguish between an agency that seems to be effective and one that actually is effective.

[Noradin]

No point in relying on external forces to provide justice to citizens.

It was arrangement where Putin's clique went with "we respect your decisions on human rights, you give us investments", nothing else.

I'm sure daddy Putin knows what is best for you!

i'm against bowing to blackmail, but that is just me, let Putin isolate Russia even more, sometimes bad ideas in foreign countries cannot be helped.

[Dezerte]

Your EU bureaucrats need their Council of Europe, and we don't.

Russian citizens might disagree. According to the article you linked the worry is that Russians citizens will no longer be able to be protected from humans rights abuses. I rather Russia remain both for the sake of it's citizens but also to promote cooperation, and democracy like the article also mentions.

[Shalcker]

Russian citizens might disagree.

I'm Russian citizen and i'm not.

According to the article you linked the worry is that Russians citizens will no longer be able to be protected from humans rights abuses. I rather Russia remain both for the sake of it's citizens but also to promote cooperation, and democracy like the article also mentions.

That's the worry of Council of Europe. Their justification to lobby for returning Russian voting rights (and Russian funding).

And that's perfectly fine.

But you got to choose.
Punishment is more important, and exclusion of Russia from voting rights in Council of Europe serves to that end? Then countries just packing up and leaving rather then changing their stance proves this type of punishment is useless.
Or "promoting cooperation and democracy" is more important? Well, then giving Russia voting rights back is important step in preserving gains in human rights and democracy that were already made.

You cannot have both at once.

[Slant]

It should be noted, that nobody gives a shit about these sanctions being lifted or not. The Council of Europe sanctions simply removed the voting right from Russian delegates and other minor bullshit solely focused on the Council of Europe.

And so Russia threatening to withdraw really has no effect on anyone but Russia. I don't give a shit if they mistreat their people more than they already do. It's not like the Council of Europe did anything for the LGBT community in Russia. So yeah, fuck off Russia. Have fun, thanks for playing.

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I'm Russian citizen and i'm not.

That's the worry of Council of Europe. Their justification to lobby for returning Russian voting rights (and Russian funding).

And that's perfectly fine.

But you got to choose.
Punishment is more important, and exclusion of Russia from voting rights in Council of Europe serves to that end? Then countries just packing up and leaving rather then changing their stance proves this type of punishment is useless.
Or "promoting cooperation and democracy" is more important? Well, then giving Russia voting rights back is important step in preserving gains in human rights and democracy that were already made.

You cannot have both at once.

Russia never promoted democracy since Putin took over. They kick human rights with their feet and they ignore international law. How exactly is them being a member of a European institution helping anyone? Oh, except once they fucked off, they cannot disturb Europeans in their attempt to forge a better Europe any longer. I'm absolutely in favour of Russia bowing out and isolating itself some more. Big thumbs up!

[Shalcker]

And so Russia threatening to withdraw really has no effect on anyone but Russia.

...and Council of Europe.

It is just as big chunk of funding for them as Germany.

I don't give a shit if they mistreat their people more than they already do. It's not like the Council of Europe did anything for the LGBT community in Russia.

You'd be surprised...

The court ordered Russia to pay the three plaintiffs a total of €43,000 (US$48,000) in damages.
...
The Russian activists for the rights of LGBT people who brought the case against the propaganda law publicly conveyed simple messages of social equivalence, such as “homosexuality is natural and normal” and “I am proud of my homosexuality.” They had been charged under local ordinances, precursors to the federal propaganda law.



That's the kind of thing you're encouraging Russian government to throw away.

Russia never promoted democracy since Putin took over. They kick human rights with their feet and they ignore international law.

Look... do you know who actually made Russia member of Council of Europe and submit to decisions of European Court of Human Rights?

Hint: It starts with P and ends with N.

How exactly is them being a member of a European institution helping anyone?

Navalny uses it quite extensively to pay back his protesters after episodes of police mistreatment.

So much that he basically advertised it as "10k Euro for anyone caught during my protests from EUCHR!"

[Pannonian]

You'd be surprised...

The court ordered Russia to pay the three plaintiffs a total of €43,000 (US$48,000) in damages.
...
The Russian activists for the rights of LGBT people who brought the case against the propaganda law publicly conveyed simple messages of social equivalence, such as “homosexuality is natural and normal” and “I am proud of my homosexuality.” They had been charged under local ordinances, precursors to the federal propaganda law.



That's the kind of thing you're encouraging Russian government to throw away.

Wouldn't it be a better investment of your time to, instead of lobbying for removal of sanctions so the council can support russians, press your government to not mistreat human rights in the first place?


Or ... don't you get paid for that?

[Noradin]

That's the kind of thing you're encouraging Russian government to throw away.

We aren't.
Russia just wants to dodge the rules.
Who cares about what amount of money they aren't paying anyway?
I see no reason to bend the rules just so Putin can look good on his own news.

[Dezerte]

I'm Russian citizen and i'm not.

I was thinking more those who would be victims of humans rights abuse, but maybe you've got immunity?

That's the worry of Council of Europe. Their justification to lobby for returning Russian voting rights (and Russian funding).

And that's perfectly fine.

But you got to choose.
Punishment is more important, and exclusion of Russia from voting rights in Council of Europe serves to that end? Then countries just packing up and leaving rather then changing their stance proves this type of punishment is useless.
Or "promoting cooperation and democracy" is more important? Well, then giving Russia voting rights back is important step in preserving gains in human rights and democracy that were already made.

You cannot have both at once.

Economically Russia was probably a drain on the Council of Europe, accounting for 1/3rd of all cases while only paying ~10-15% of the total budget. So I don't really think that's the issue here.

I'm unsure about the sanctions and punishments though. On the one hand it may have the effect of driving away Russia (rather than what many hoped - that Russia would make amends) but at the same time you have to somehow reconcile having a member that is not only abusing human rights but now also have the recent Ukraine/Crimea-issue fresh in our memories (which some view as a sign that Russia doesn't want to cooperate).