Sunreavers and Jaina

[baskev]

I'm not sure what the hell you are talking about at this point, Darnassus was as much an Alliance city as Stormwind or Ironforge.

She should have pissed off and not interacted if she truly wanted to be neutral, by helping secure the bell that was in an Alliance city, she already broke the neutrality she later accused the sunreavers of doing.

Not sure....you said putting it into darnassus was not a good move. Because its not neutral. I just pointed out that it was one of the most neutral options they had.
To make it even more clear:

Dalaran: To much traffic both side's so no option.
Stormwind: yeah give it to major faction of the enemy, who hate's you the most.
Ironforge/gnomes: BFF's of stormwind and connected by a tram system....great option to...( not)
Exodar: Mmmm yeah lets put it in the city of the people who where slaughtered by the orcs and where used as fuel for the dark portal....

So that leaves......Darnassus. They had some run ins and ashenvale is a warzone. But they still have less reason to hate them.

And like i said before...they could not leave the bell there...it was a WARZONE...there where only the following factions fighting each other:

Alliance vs Hord
Pandaran vs Killik
Sha, mogu vs everyone
Fish people vs monkey people

So yeah...great place to stash a weapon like that......

[Aquamonkey]

...A WMD stealing during a war is a attack...
If russia steals a nuke from america...will it not be called a attack on America sovereignty?

It was not an attack. Nobody was assaulted. There were no weapons involved. Taylor was asking if it was an attack, he was not declaring it to be an attack. It was a theft.

"I may be able to use my skills to find the thieves."

Quest:Tracking the Thieves

Theft is a non-violent crime.

"Theft differs from robbery in that the theft is a taking of property that does not involve person-to-person interaction. A person merely takes property that does not belong to him."

Warcraft is a universe with magic. IRL doesn't have teleportation and invisibility spells. In order for Russia to steal a nuke, they have to assault US guards since the US isn't going to just leave their nukes lying around untended.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Not sure....you said putting it into darnassus was not a good move. Because its not neutral. I just pointed out that it was one of the most neutral options they had.
To make it even more clear:

Dalaran: To much traffic both side's so no option.
Stormwind: yeah give it to major faction of the enemy, who hate's you the most.
Ironforge/gnomes: BFF's of stormwind and connected by a tram system....great option to...( not)
Exodar: Mmmm yeah lets put it in the city of the people who where slaughtered by the orcs and where used as fuel for the dark portal....

So that leaves......Darnassus. They had some run ins and ashenvale is a warzone. But they still have less reason to hate them.

And like i said before...they could not leave the bell there...it was a WARZONE...there where only the following factions fighting each other:

Alliance vs Hord
Pandaran vs Killik
Sha, mogu vs everyone
Fish people vs monkey people

So yeah...great place to stash a weapon like that......

Your line of thinking makes absolutly no sense, a breach in neutrality is no longer a breath of neutrality based off of your assumption that Darnassus in a less hostile Alliance city, which nothing indicates they hate the Horde any less.

Dalaran has vaults, if the Kirin'tor are too stupid to put the bell in their vaults, then that's their problem.


Again, your reasoning does not make their action neutral, and I'm not sure how anyone would ever even get that point from you by reading what you wrote.

[Vynny]

Where are talking about the divine bell right??? or should we get mehrunes to get a whole history of the hord??? Because if we talk like you the hord is wrong. Because they invaded azoroth first in the rts warcraft games.

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That was talking about Theramore and was responding to a point about Theramore. We're specifically talking about betrayals here, and the orcs invading Azeroth is many things, but it's not a betrayal. Jaina letting the Alliance use Theramore as a staging ground for their invasion of Horde lands is a betrayal.

Again...a leader of a organization of very powerful magic users. Who is friends to the aspect dragons you would think she heard some whispers. But i stand corrected if she does not know it.

Yeah all the troops in darnassus....who would loose the effect before they would be in pandaria...

But let me ask you this: In a country where Alliance, Hord, Mogu, Pandaran, Killik, Sha's, monkey and fish people are at war..leaving a weapon like that there is a smart idea why???

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She didn't know it. The only ones who would've known were Lor'themar and Varian since anyone else knowing would mean Lor'themar and his people getting into hot water with the Horde and the Alliance losing any potential advantage they could gain from the blood elves switching sides. No dragon aspects or mages would've known about something like that going which was proven by Varian scolding Jaina for mucking the deal up by acting without talking to him first and doing her purge of Dalaran.

Secondly, I never said that they should have left it in Pandaria. If Jaina wanted to remain neutral while securing the bell then she should've taken it to Dalaran, not an Alliance capital.

Where else should she put it...in theramore??!?!?!
.....
Dalaran where no one could steal it.....?

She did not put it in stormwind, iron forge or erodar...all who are way less friendly to the hord. And before you go after this: Nope the night elfs are also not fun of the hord. But both their leaders are more relax about crazy stuff then other leaders.
Other leaders lost land, family and much more to the hord....

Yeah, "Dalaran where no one could steal it . . ." sounds good to me. Sarcasm aside, Jaina had the choice of maintaining the Kirin Tor's neutrality, protecting the bell, or doing both, and she chose protecting the bell. The entire point is that Jaina was never betrayed because betrayal necessitates a breach of trust that she had already broken. She let the Alliance use Theramore as a base to fight against the Horde which was a betrayal of their standing truce. She helped the Alliance secure a WMD in their war against the Horde when she could have very well secured the bell in Dalaran where the Horde stealing it would've been a betrayal since her keeping it in Dalaran would have been a truly neutral action since neither side would have it, but she chose to favor the Alliance yet again.

The entire point I'm arguing and the initial point of this thread is that Jaina has never once been betrayed by the Horde because she's the one who always broke trust and betrayed the Horde first thus her constant pissing and moaning of being stabbed in the back by the Horde is complete hypocritical BS.

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Too sleepy to remember each source.

But on first point. She did reinforce the wards, she said so doing her rant. The sunreavers just found ways to bypass her wards. Sunreavers are really good at that.

For the second point, see what I said about Hammul. Being a leader of dalaran doesn’t mean you can’t fight for the alliance just like being a leader in the CC doesn’t mean he can’t fight for the horde.

3rd point, she told Varian when he confronted her about it. It was in wolfheart I think. And also that was the point. Theramore wasn’t neutral so she couldn’t use its resources to help the horde but she was. The law of the land made her unable to use the cities resources to help who she wanted. But she could still help with her own private resource.

The Cenarion Circle isn't a city state, it's an organization. Dalaran is its own city state with its own citizens and sovereign government. They're incomparable as far as what restrictions apply when dealing with geo-political situations. It'd be like comparing the UN to Sweden. UN aid workers have a lot less restrictions because they are an international organization and can't be assumed to bat for any one team; whereas, specifically Swedish aid workers may be assumed to have reason to represent their national interests thus they are far more restricted. Being the leader of a sovereign state comes with a lot more baggage than being leader in an international organization.

Did Jaina tell Varian before she would use her own resources before she did it? If so then Varian not ordering her to not help is a tacit acceptance of her doing that which would mean it wasn't a breach of neutrality since she got the okay from one sides leader before helping the other side.

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Nah...the hord is not evil. Just a different type or races.

My post is more about the jaina hate.....Sylvanna's is on the same level ( even worse if you ask me) and she gets no hate from the hord players. Atleast alliance players have the balls to say that jaina is f*ck*d up as hell.

And my post ( might not have gotten all the facts right , but i said that from the start :P) was more to shed light on the fact that it was a reaction from her the sunreavers could have guessed that would happen. And it was overkill but not unjust.

The reason no one, Alliance or Horde argue about Sylvanas' wrong doings is because her character isn't a hypocritical bitch about it. Jaina, time after time after time betrays the Horde and then acts like she's the aggrieved party when the Horde doesn't uphold a truce that she had already broken or when the Horde doesn't treat her and the state she's ruling as neutral when she is actively aiding the Alliance. Sylvanas on the other hand does what she feels is in the best interest of her people or herself and doesn't try playing the victim when her plans blow up in her face due to reprisals for her actions.

Also the sunreavers couldn't have guessed what would happen because they didn't know about it. The only one who did know was Aethas and that was only after we the players had stolen the bell. I've told you before and even provided a link showing that the mage who got us into Darnassus to steal the bell was part of the reliquary, not the sunreavers.

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Aethas should either disband the Sunreavers or become a better leader. 3 Sunreaver betrayels thus far.
1. Thalen Songweaver, a sunreaver, during Theramore bombing
2. Fanlyr Silverthorn, a sunreaver, during the Divine Bell stuff
3. Aethas says in the 7.2 Mage Campaign that a Sunreaver (whom was working for the Legion) sabotaged Dalaran's defences.

Aethas is the most incompetent leader ever.

1. Thalen was a Sunreaver yes, https://wow.gamepedia.com/Thalen_Songweaver
2. Fanlyr was part of the reliquary, not a Sunreaver. They're completely different organizations. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Fanlyr_Silverthorn
3. The Sunreaver who sabotaged the weapons array was being used by the Legion, and considering the first part of that campaign is saving Archmage Vargoth (a member of the council of six) from the legions influence, I don't think it's reasonable to blame a Sunreaver falling prey to the legion on Aethas' leadership.

[DeicideUH]

2. Fanlyr was part of the reliquary, not a Sunreaver. They're completely different organizations. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Fanlyr_Silverthorn

He somehow got access to the Dalaran portal network, throught Sunreaver connections. We don't know who aided him, but it was someone (possibly more than one) among the Sunreavers. That specific event tarnishes the Sunreavers as a whole, as the group should have measures to avoid such events, specially after Thalen's betrayal.

[Combatbutler]

He somehow got access to the Dalaran portal network, throught Sunreaver connections. We don't know who aided him, but it was someone (possibly more than one) among the Sunreavers. That specific event tarnishes the Sunreavers as a whole, as the group should have measures to avoid such events, specially after Thalen's betrayal.

Not only them it casts a bad light on the Krin tor in general, since they have to keep an eye on all their members, but alas it is a constant that Dalaran has security issues, almost since moment of its foundation.

[sam86]

I get Thalen and Fanlyr mixed up in my head - Thalen Songweaver created the mana-bomb that took out Theramore, and Fanlyr was the Reliquary agent who participated in the Divine Bell heist. Even then, it only makes Jaina's almost automatic presumption of guilt on the part of the Sunreavers that much more unhinged.

did no one tell her that the biggest betrayer to Kirin Tor is a human? Why she doesn't ban them or flat out kill them (and herself and do us a favor) since literally worst ever betrayer to Kirin Tor and one of worst to entire Azeroth is the human ex-council member Kel'thuzad ? Also isn't necromancers (wc3 unit) are ex-kirin tor members? doesn't that mean that average human in Kirin Tor for long time ended pure evil?

Its amazing how even 6 years later this event is still being discussed. MoP was the best expansion when it comes to the lore....

That show it is a sh8t not a good one, because even after 6 years there is still talk about it
While they did mistakes/bad things in TBC, at least no one discuss if Keal'thas was right or wrong, or the best expansion (by numbers) Wrath, lore was pretty clear there
A good story is a closed one, not one that is sh8t upon, btw Alex stated flat out they 'didn't notice' Cata Garrosh change when they made MoP story

[Deleted]

Didn't Jaina pretty much declared war on Garrosh at the end of Tides of War?

[Kallisto]

Didn't Jaina pretty much declared war on Garrosh at the end of Tides of War?

Even earlier, when her Northwatch and Theramore troops were marching all over the Barrens and Durotar. Long before Garrosh was said to "Star the war." in the alliance view by attacking Ashenvale.

What she tried to do in Tides of War was pure and simple Genocide.

[DeicideUH]

Even earlier, when her Northwatch and Theramore troops were marching all over the Barrens and Durotar. Long before Garrosh was said to "Star the war." in the alliance view by attacking Ashenvale.

This is something that never made sense, and I think it's a mistake from Blizzard. The action in the Barrens, as per in-game dialog, starts before the Cataclysm, but in response to Horde aggression against the Night elves in Ashenvale. Also, in-game, both factions go to Ashenvale first, and the Horde has already made huge progress there. Way more progress than the Alliance has had in the Barrens.

However, the novel tells that orc aggression only began after the cataclysm.

So, either the novel or the in-game timeline information is wrong.

[baskev]

It was not an attack. Nobody was assaulted. There were no weapons involved. Taylor was asking if it was an attack, he was not declaring it to be an attack. It was a theft.

"I may be able to use my skills to find the thieves."

Quest:Tracking the Thieves

Theft is a non-violent crime.

"Theft differs from robbery in that the theft is a taking of property that does not involve person-to-person interaction. A person merely takes property that does not belong to him."

Warcraft is a universe with magic. IRL doesn't have teleportation and invisibility spells. In order for Russia to steal a nuke, they have to assault US guards since the US isn't going to just leave their nukes lying around untended.

So stealing a WMD during a war is not a attack????

[Arrashi]

So stealing a WMD during a war is not a attack????

Its not a WMD, its magical artifact.

[baskev]

Your line of thinking makes absolutly no sense, a breach in neutrality is no longer a breath of neutrality based off of your assumption that Darnassus in a less hostile Alliance city, which nothing indicates they hate the Horde any less.

Dalaran has vaults, if the Kirin'tor are too stupid to put the bell in their vaults, then that's their problem.


Again, your reasoning does not make their action neutral, and I'm not sure how anyone would ever even get that point from you by reading what you wrote.

My reasoning does make sense...you just will not admit it.

I clearly stated why it could not stay in pandaria. And i clearly stated why it could not stay in any other city. Yes its a assumption.... 1 that is based in lore facts....They have had the least bad contact with the hord. They have ( via druids) allot of people in both camps.

[Aquamonkey]

So stealing a WMD during a war is not a attack????

It's not an attack because there was no violence.

You keep focusing on wartime, indicating that you don't consider stealing a WMD during peace to be an attack. When a theft happens doesn't matter to the situation. No violence, not an attack.

[Gaaz]

Warcraft is a universe with magic. IRL doesn't have teleportation and invisibility spells. In order for Russia to steal a nuke, they have to assault US guards since the US isn't going to just leave their nukes lying around untended.

You are so wrong about that...

[baskev]

That was talking about Theramore and was responding to a point about Theramore. We're specifically talking about betrayals here, and the orcs invading Azeroth is many things, but it's not a betrayal. Jaina letting the Alliance use Theramore as a staging ground for their invasion of Horde lands is a betrayal.

Yeah , but we are talking about the divine bell..if you pull in other things i can do to?? But okay lets talk about theramore. Its her town...so yeah she can let alliance use it?!?! does it forbid her do to so being in the kirin tor? as long as she acts neutral.

She didn't know it. The only ones who would've known were Lor'themar and Varian since anyone else knowing would mean Lor'themar and his people getting into hot water with the Horde and the Alliance losing any potential advantage they could gain from the blood elves switching sides. No dragon aspects or mages would've known about something like that going which was proven by Varian scolding Jaina for mucking the deal up by acting without talking to him first and doing her purge of Dalaran.

Secondly, I never said that they should have left it in Pandaria. If Jaina wanted to remain neutral while securing the bell then she should've taken it to Dalaran, not an Alliance capital.

And i have pointed it out several times. Dalaran and secure!?! With that much alliance and hord traffic would have made it a power keg.

Yeah, "Dalaran where no one could steal it . . ." sounds good to me. Sarcasm aside, Jaina had the choice of maintaining the Kirin Tor's neutrality, protecting the bell, or doing both, and she chose protecting the bell. The entire point is that Jaina was never betrayed because betrayal necessitates a breach of trust that she had already broken. She let the Alliance use Theramore as a base to fight against the Horde which was a betrayal of their standing truce. She helped the Alliance secure a WMD in their war against the Horde when she could have very well secured the bell in Dalaran where the Horde stealing it would've been a betrayal since her keeping it in Dalaran would have been a truly neutral action since neither side would have it, but she chose to favor the Alliance yet again.

The entire point I'm arguing and the initial point of this thread is that Jaina has never once been betrayed by the Horde because she's the one who always broke trust and betrayed the Horde first thus her constant pissing and moaning of being stabbed in the back by the Horde is complete hypocritical BS.

You are wrong. And you can not read. You are suggesting that i think she did not make any mistakes and did everything right. She did not.
Buts lets go be points again:
- she had a choice and she made the safest one to store the weapon.
- Did she breach it ?!?! Removing a WMD from a war zone is not breaching it. Storing it somewhere safe where it could not do harm is not breaching it.
- And Her being boss in theramore or not would not have stopped the alliance if they wanted to. And she can decided to let them use it. ( its a bad choice i must add) but as long as her kirin tor duty's stay neutral ( witch she did) she can do what she want in her own town?!?!
- Dalaran again is not save!!
- And last time i checked the bell happened after theramore. So not being ass trustful with hord in your neutral city of dalaran after they bombed your home is logical.

The reason no one, Alliance or Horde argue about Sylvanas' wrong doings is because her character isn't a hypocritical bitch about it. Jaina, time after time after time betrays the Horde and then acts like she's the aggrieved party when the Horde doesn't uphold a truce that she had already broken or when the Horde doesn't treat her and the state she's ruling as neutral when she is actively aiding the Alliance. Sylvanas on the other hand does what she feels is in the best interest of her people or herself and doesn't try playing the victim when her plans blow up in her face due to reprisals for her actions.

Also the sunreavers couldn't have guessed what would happen because they didn't know about it. The only one who did know was Aethas and that was only after we the players had stolen the bell. I've told you before and even provided a link showing that the mage who got us into Darnassus to steal the bell was part of the reliquary, not the sunreavers.

And thats my point...you are acting like nothing happened to her....And like people defending her think she is perfect ( she is not).
Just read her wiki will you....

As for the sunreavers: It does not matter!!! My point sigh...is that like acting that she did everything wrong and she was not triggered/pushed/etc by the hord just means you are lying to yourself. Everything that happened to her builds who she is. The alliance could use the weapon, they did not, she could have teleported it into ogrr she did not. etc etc etc

And sylvanna's is as evil....hordy's and alliance people just have boner for her. She has done way worse then jaina.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Yeah , but we are talking about the divine bell..if you pull in other things i can do to?? But okay lets talk about theramore. Its her town...so yeah she can let alliance use it?!?! does it forbid her do to so being in the kirin tor? as long as she acts neutral.

Letting the Alliance use it made it a military target, not sure what you are even trying to say here.

And i have pointed it out several times. Dalaran and secure!?! With that much alliance and hord traffic would have made it a power keg.

compared to the powder keg of giving it to one side in a two faction conflict, regardless of intent to use or not.

You are wrong. And you can not read. You are suggesting that i think she did not make any mistakes and did everything right. She did not.
Buts lets go be points again:
- she had a choice and she made the safest one to store the weapon.
- Did she breach it ?!?! Removing a WMD from a war zone is not breaching it. Storing it somewhere safe where it could not do harm is not breaching it.
- And Her being boss in theramore or not would not have stopped the alliance if they wanted to. And she can decided to let them use it. ( its a bad choice i must add) but as long as her kirin tor duty's stay neutral ( witch she did) she can do what she want in her own town?!?!
- Dalaran again is not save!!
- And last time i checked the bell happened after theramore. So not being ass trustful with hord in your neutral city of dalaran after they bombed your home is logical.

She had a choice to be neutral and not get involved, she got involved and broke neutrality.

Securing the bell in an Alliance city in a two faction conflict is breaking neutrality.


Dalaran being safe or not has no fucking weight in the argument, what she did still broke neutrality.


-it doesn't matter if she didn't trust the Horde or not, she still broke neutrality.


The big fucking issue here is that you don't seem to understand what neutrality actually means, it doesn't equal being able to pick and choose what conflicts and sides you partake in, that just makes you an opportunistic leech.

And thats my point...you are acting like nothing happened to her....And like people defending her think she is perfect ( she is not).
Just read her wiki will you....

You could do some reading of your own.

As for the sunreavers: It does not matter!!! My point sigh...is that like acting that she did everything wrong and she was not triggered/pushed/etc by the hord just means you are lying to yourself. Everything that happened to her builds who she is. The alliance could use the weapon, they did not, she could have teleported it into ogrr she did not. etc etc etc

Just because the Alliance didn't use the bell doesn't make Jaina's actions neutral, how many times does that need to be repeated to you until you understand?

And sylvanna's is as evil....hordy's and alliance people just have boner for her. She has done way worse then jaina.

irrelevant to your poor grasp on what neutrality is.

[Kiri]

It's not an attack because there was no violence.

You keep focusing on wartime, indicating that you don't consider stealing a WMD during peace to be an attack. When a theft happens doesn't matter to the situation. No violence, not an attack.

The Horde first tried attacking and only switched to no-fighting when they needed to infiltrate Darnassus due to not being able to fight off the whole of it. This really is just splitting hairs, the hostile intent was definitely there.

Secondly, I never said that they should have left it in Pandaria. If Jaina wanted to remain neutral while securing the bell then she should've taken it to Dalaran, not an Alliance capital.

Yeah, "Dalaran where no one could steal it . . ." sounds good to me. Sarcasm aside, Jaina had the choice of maintaining the Kirin Tor's neutrality, protecting the bell, or doing both, and she chose protecting the bell. The entire point is that Jaina was never betrayed because betrayal necessitates a breach of trust that she had already broken. She let the Alliance use Theramore as a base to fight against the Horde which was a betrayal of their standing truce. She helped the Alliance secure a WMD in their war against the Horde when she could have very well secured the bell in Dalaran where the Horde stealing it would've been a betrayal since her keeping it in Dalaran would have been a truly neutral action since neither side would have it, but she chose to favor the Alliance yet again.

The entire point I'm arguing and the initial point of this thread is that Jaina has never once been betrayed by the Horde because she's the one who always broke trust and betrayed the Horde first thus her constant pissing and moaning of being stabbed in the back by the Horde is complete hypocritical BS.

Did Jaina even have a lot of say in that regard? It was the Nightelves that found the bell and transported it to Dalaran. On one hand, you lament Jaina not being neutral enough, on the other you assume that, as a fully neutral character, she should have taken it from the Alliance. All she did was help secure the bell from theft by magical means which might potentially a be a non-neutral action. However, the Kirin Tor have provided logistic and defensive support to one side or the other before, so that is not something Jaina specific. And, given the fact that one side did not want to use the bell and the last time that the other stole an artifact, they used it to nuke a city, helping secure it is not exactly illogical.

Similarly, Jaina offered logistical support to the Alliance during Cata and financial support to the Horde, along with assisting the later in some more domestic matters. Theramore only became a 'base to fight the Horde' after the latter obliterated Northwatch hold and Horde members informed her of an impending attack on Theramore. Before that, it was mostly a harbor friendly to the Alliance, but never an active base like Northwatch - which she explicitly decided not to reinforce and defend, despite knowing of the attack.
Obviously, Jaina was always closer to the Alliance than the Horde - naturally, since of the Horde only Thrall seemed all that interested in even talking to her. But, from what the books and in-game actions have shown, she did try to help achieve peace between them. Was her approach flawed? Yes. But the intent to try and stay neutral, despite both sides seeking to force her to pick a side, seemed genuine to me. It was lessened after Cata, of course, but even in MoP, she initially refused the Alliance proposal to remove the Sunreavers from Dalaran, trusting the latter to not abuse the portal network. After all, the latter also led to Horde cities, but she never led an alliance strike group into Org to assassinate Garrosh, for example. Jaina was aware that the Sunreavers and their magi assisted the Horde every so often, just as human mages did for the Alliance. But Dalaran was supposed to be neutral ground and open for both. That is why Jaina, after finding out about the Darnassus mission, is upset about Kirin Tor members putting their allegiance towards the Horde above that to the Kirin Tor - something she had avoided for the longest time on the Alliance side.

[Mehrunes]

This is something that never made sense, and I think it's a mistake from Blizzard. The action in the Barrens, as per in-game dialog, starts before the Cataclysm, but in response to Horde aggression against the Night elves in Ashenvale. Also, in-game, both factions go to Ashenvale first, and the Horde has already made huge progress there. Way more progress than the Alliance has had in the Barrens.

However, the novel tells that orc aggression only began after the cataclysm.

So, either the novel or the in-game timeline information is wrong.

The source for the Alliance attack on the Barrens doesn't even mention the word Ashenvale. And in-game we go to Ashenvale only after the events of Wolfheart, after the Cataclysm, when the invasion was already ongoing. The level chronology of zones says nothing here. And it's obvious that the Horde made more progress in the Ashenvale than the Alliance did in the Barrens. Horde had more presence in central Kalimdor in general, they had more presence in Ashenvale than the Alliance had in the Barrens prior the war and Ashenvale was Night Elven borderland while the Barrens are the central area of the Horde that connects the two capital zones. Also, one of the novels said something about Jaina acting against the Horde based on rumors of the Horde mobilizing against Ashenvale, i.e. her acting before the actual invasion (and as such, potentially before the Cataclysm).

Yeah , but we are talking about the divine bell..if you pull in other things i can do to?? But okay lets talk about theramore. Its her town...so yeah she can let alliance use it?!?! does it forbid her do to so being in the kirin tor? as long as she acts neutral.

But she didn't stay neutral.

- Did she breach it ?!?! Removing a WMD from a war zone is not breaching it. Storing it somewhere safe where it could not do harm is not breaching it.

Acting against Horde members trying to enter Darnassus is breaching it, however.

The Horde first tried attacking and only switched to no-fighting when they needed to infiltrate Darnassus due to not being able to fight off the whole of it. This really is just splitting hairs, the hostile intent was definitely there.

The topic of that sub-discussion was specifically the quest and Sunreavers though. The Sunreavers weren't there during the fight for what we know.

All she did was help secure the bell from theft by magical means which might potentially a be a non-neutral action. However, the Kirin Tor have provided logistic and defensive support to one side or the other before, so that is not something Jaina specific.

Kirin Tor having established themselves as a bunch of flip flopping neutrality breaking morons prior to the Purge does not excuse Jaina's own actions.

Similarly, Jaina offered logistical support to the Alliance during Cata and financial support to the Horde, along with assisting the later in some more domestic matters. Theramore only became a 'base to fight the Horde' after the latter obliterated Northwatch hold and Horde members informed her of an impending attack on Theramore. Before that, it was mostly a harbor friendly to the Alliance, but never an active base like Northwatch - which she explicitly decided not to reinforce and defend, despite knowing of the attack.
Obviously, Jaina was always closer to the Alliance than the Horde - naturally, since of the Horde only Thrall seemed all that interested in even talking to her. But, from what the books and in-game actions have shown, she did try to help achieve peace between them. Was her approach flawed? Yes. But the intent to try and stay neutral, despite both sides seeking to force her to pick a side, seemed genuine to me.

It was the main supply route for the Alliance reinforcements from EK since the war resumed at the start of Catalcysm. Theramore constructed a highway across entire Dustwallow for that purpose. And Theramore's own troops were leading the Alliance incursion into Horde's territory in 4.0.

That is why Jaina, after finding out about the Darnassus mission, is upset about Kirin Tor members putting their allegiance towards the Horde above that to the Kirin Tor - something she had avoided for the longest time on the Alliance side.

She was doing literally just that moments before she learned of the theft.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Again this conversation, and again people missing the point.

-The alliance secured the Divine Bell, they were under no obligation to deliver it to a neutral party.

-Dalaran, as an independent party was asked/offered help to secure the bell from the horde. You are all assuming that their neutrality means they can't take a side; it only means they act as an independent party with its own agenda. Preventing the horde from getting the bell was in the best interest for everyone.

-They made the choice to help the alliance, Dalaran acts unilaterally without the horde or the alliance permission, and all members are expect to follow that policy once it is in effect. Sure we can say that Dalaran had an alliance bias, but its their right: they don't have to prove their utter neutrality to anyone.

-Also if you think that Jaina acted without the Kirin Tor's and Dalaran's support; all I can say it's highly unlikely for the leader of an organization to act against said organization's wishes/policies, and if so it would have definitely been pointed out.

-The Sunreavers actions to help the Horde from Darnassus where undoubtedly, a betrayal of these policies. Again, it doesn't matter that it seems that Dalaran took a pro alliance decision in this -it was the decision they made and everyone was expected to follow suit.

In terms of interpretation, we can even say that Jaina didn't care that the Sunreavers suffered Garrosh's ire for this, or that she didn't even fathom they would betray Dalaran. Again, to Jaina and Dalaran, as a political entity, helping the night elves defend the bell was the ethical choice here, and it was expected for every member to follow suit. Maybe Jaina hoped that it would make the horde break ties with the Sunreavers.

But the simple fact is that the Sunreavers went against Dalaran's policies. And that's betrayal.