Theres only one possible class left they can add to the game

[ComputerNerd]

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point down the line we saw tinkers. How long were we all saying demon hunters and classic would never happen, and now they have. Pretty much anything can happen now. Whatever they think will make em a buck is what they'll give.

The primary difference is that there was a lot of room left outside of warlock meta, which had been previously established on demon hunters by one example.
Warlock Meta was an experiment of a "cool" mechanic via the nearest similar option.
And warlocks being nearest is used in the loosest sense of the word

Tinkers do not have a lot outside of the engineering profession.
A profession which even in its current state does not leave a lot left, let alone with further expansion of it that comes with BfA and beyond.
There needs to be a dramatic rethinking of how they work in order to avoid the engineering profession issue, and would need to do so witih an uncertain future of that profession.
And therein lies a problem.

[Ielenia]

In your opinion, and I have a strong suspicion that nothing will alter that opinion.

Not with the arguments you're presenting, that's for sure.

Um no. I'm stating that a class based on machines and technology is completely different than a class based on nature and magic.

"No. Yes." That's what you just said, 'tl:dr' version. Again, you're only saying "it's mechanical, therefore different". I refer back to my example you just quoted. You're saying that if mages and warlocks had the exact same abilities and gameplay, but one was "magic!" and the other was "demons!" that would be enough to call them different classes.

I consider hypocrisy and double standards to be quite dishonest.

So you're admitting you're dishonest? Again, you haven't pointed out where you claim I was dishonest.

Actually designed by Goblins and then built by Orcs via schematics.

Then I'll ask you to show me in the lore where it says it was the goblins who designed it. But I have a feeling you won't find anything, considering we have hard evidence that the orcs did it.

Good luck forging a connection between Hearthsinger whatever in Stratholme and Lorewalker Cho.

Are they even in the same time-frame?

Hearthsinger Forresten's daughter/son, who pursued the same career path as their father, but weren't in Stratholme when it was purged. That's one way to make the connection to Cho possible.

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Tinkers do not have a lot outside of the engineering profession.
A profession which even in its current state does not leave a lot left, let alone with further expansion of it that comes with BfA and beyond.
There needs to be a dramatic rethinking of how they work in order to avoid the engineering profession issue, and would need to do so witih an uncertain future of that profession.
And therein lies a problem.

I think you nailed it.

[Teriz]

The primary difference is that there was a lot of room left outside of warlock meta, which had been previously established on demon hunters by one example.

Yeah, so much room that they could only produce 2 specs from it.

Tinkers do not have a lot outside of the engineering profession.

Considering that Tinkers would be a class, and engineering is a profession, there's plenty of room for the class. When Hunters got a Grenade talent, nothing happened to Engineering. When Rogues and Monks got potions that they could hand off to other players, nothing happened to the Alchemy profession.

We also shouldn't discount that none of the Tinker's abilities from WC3 or HotS currently reside in Engineering. Even if they did, it wouldn't matter since items are not abilities, and professions are not classes.

[ComputerNerd]

Yeah, so much room that they could only produce 2 specs from it.



Considering that Tinkers would be a class, and engineering is a profession, there's plenty of room for the class. When Hunters got a Grenade talent, nothing happened to Engineering. When Rogues and Monks got potions that they could hand off to other players, nothing happened to the Alchemy profession.

We also shouldn't discount that none of the Tinker's abilities from WC3 or HotS currently reside in Engineering. Even if they did, it wouldn't matter since items are not abilities, and professions are not classes.

The 2 specs argument isn't a case of not being able to, but because there wasn't a reason to.
Blizzard gave a good argument, that why should there be 3 specs.
Is there an absolute need for 2 dps specs just to make up the sum of 3 ?
No.

[ReleaseDay]

Troll? There are so many other options for classes.

This. I can think of 20 ontop of my head.

[Teriz]

The 2 specs argument isn't a case of not being able to, but because there wasn't a reason to.
Blizzard gave a good argument, that why should there be 3 specs.
Is there an absolute need for 2 dps specs just to make up the sum of 3 ?
No.

There was definitely a reason to: 3 specs has become the standard for classes in WoW. Players expect a class to have at least 3 specializations because all the other classes have at least 3 specializations. Further, the glut of 3rd DH spec requests on multiple WoW-based forums kind of show why this is a problem.

The DHs numbers have tumbled, and part of the reason for that tumble is that the DPS and Tank spec had serious issues and there was no where else spec-wise to turn to, so players just abandoned the class completely.

As for their argument, it wasn't very good. No one expected a DH healing spec, but I did read where Blizzard said they considered a 3rd ranged spec that used demonic magic, but felt that it was too close to the Warlock class (which it was). If I can find that snippet again, I'll post it.

Having a spec on hand but not being able to use it because of class thematic conflicts is certainly an example of "not being able to".

[serendipity11]

Blizzard combined three possible class ideas (Death Knight, Necromancer, Runemaster) to make one class. I'm sure they'll likely do it again.

Tinker is never going to happen, the reason for that is it involves so much engineering and probably will revoke engineering as a profession if it ever did come into the game. You'd effectively be given "Engineering: the class".

I don't think Blizzard is going to add a new class anytime soon, if at all, WoW is reaching the end now.

WoW has been "reaching the end now" (a fancy way of saying it's dying) since it launched. There has been doomsaying since the beginning. With every patch, every change, every expansion the game is dying. Yet it persists. Just because you don't personally like the changes doesn't mean it's dying.

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Considering that this is a video game, and everything in the game world is created by people and thus known, we know that there aren't any non-goblin or gnomes piloting mechs outside of that alternate reality orc. Thus it's a fact that there are no non-Goblin or Gnome races building and piloting mechs.

As a storywriter myself I have to disagree with this point of. "Created by people and thus known". I've created entire story universes and even as the creator I don't know everything about everything. I also leave things purposefully left out, or vauge. It makes the world more dynamic then having every tiny aspect of a universe fully known and understood. Blizzard also disproves this. Yrel had a "Dark secret" a secret they either intentionally (or perhaps accidentally) didn't explain. Leaving it a mystery to the imagination. Just because it was "created by people" does not mean it is "thus known". In fact Blizzard themselves might not even know what the Dark secret is.

Regardless. Well not of Azeroth. The Draenei have piloted Mechs. Also while never seen in game piloting mechs the High/Blood elves were well renowned engineers/tinkers as well as masters of the magical arts.

[Illidari]

One way I could see a mech-based tank work that wouldn't duplicate a druid's mechanics would be this. You have a spell which summons a vehicle. Out of combat, it requires a short cast time. In combat, it requires a long cast time. It has a separate health bar from the tinker, and has all of the damage mitigation. It tracks how much health it has when dismissed, so you can't just resummon it for a full heal. If the mech is dead, resummoning it restores a bit of health. When dismissed, it disappears, rather than leaving it on the battlefield to jump back into at the same spot. When in it, instead of a vehicle hud it simply has its own toolbar, like a form, or stealth. The tinker would have access to all his baseline abilities, because he's in an open cockpit. However, he'd also have access to the mech's abilities.

In this implementation, the tinker himself would be very squishy. The object would be to not let the mech die, but if it did, it wouldn't necessarily be the end of the world - this would be a riff on a self-rez, like a shaman ankh, but requiring the skill and/or teamwork to avoid death long enough to repair the mech. One possible cooldown could be a self-destruct, where if the mech is close to death the tinker can eject out like a disengage and cause the mech to explode behind him, stunning/slowing surrounding enemies and buying time for repairs.

Another possible gameplay aspect this opens up is purposefully abandoning the mech. Say if a boss is winding up a mega attack that other tanks would be expected to live through, a tinker might not be given any cooldown to do that, but could instead respond to this situation by setting the mech on decoy mode and jumping out, sacrificing the mech to the hit as it covers his retreat. Without another tank to take over after the mech dies, the tinker would probably be killed before he could repair it, but this would otherwise be a safer than normal way of dealing with massive hits, and a tanking niche the tinker could climb into.

Thanks for the cool write-up man. That really helps.

[Teriz]

As a storywriter myself I have to disagree with this point of. "Created by people and thus known". I've created entire story universes and even as the creator I don't know everything about everything. I also leave things purposefully left out, or vauge. It makes the world more dynamic then having every tiny aspect of a universe fully known and understood. Blizzard also disproves this. Yrel had a "Dark secret" a secret they either intentionally (or perhaps accidentally) didn't explain. Leaving it a mystery to the imagination. Just because it was "created by people" does not mean it is "thus known". In fact Blizzard themselves might not even know what the Dark secret is.

My point is that if you're going to establish that in WoW all races are capable of designing, building, and piloting advanced mechs, then there should be some evidence of that in the game from the lore characters. If we have zero examples of this supposed occurrence, then its safe to say that in WoW only Gnomes and Goblins can design, construct and pilot advanced mechs on Azeroth. This is further proven by the fact that many of the major Goblin and Gnome lore figures in WoW have their own personal Mechs; Gazlowe, Noggenfogger, Blackfuse, Gallywix, Boss Mida, Mekkatorque, Thermaplugg, etc.

Other races? Not so much.

Regardless. Well not of Azeroth. The Draenei have piloted Mechs. Also while never seen in game piloting mechs the High/Blood elves were well renowned engineers/tinkers as well as masters of the magical arts.

Yes, a very different type of tech than what we've seen out of the Tinker, which is decidedly Goblin/Gnome based. Though I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility for a Tinker spec to focuses on more exotic tech like Titan, Naaru, or Legion. Blackfuse remains the only Azerothian who has repurposed Titan technology, so that would be an interesting avenue to explore spec-wise.

[Ielenia]

There was definitely a reason to: 3 specs has become the standard for classes in WoW.

No, there wasn't, because that was never a rule. You just don't like it because it pisses on your arbitrary class design rules you like to claim as fact.

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My point is that if you're going to establish that in WoW all races are capable of designing, building, and piloting advanced mechs, then there should be some evidence of that in the game from the lore characters. If we have zero examples of this supposed occurrence, then its safe to say that in WoW only Gnomes and Goblins can design, construct and pilot advanced mechs on Azeroth.

No, it's not "safe to assume". Because what you're basically saying that it's "safe to assume" that in the Tolkien world, hobbits are immortal and undying, since we never actually see any hobbit dying.

This is further proven by the fact that many of the major Goblin and Gnome lore figures in WoW have their own personal Mechs; Gazlowe, Noggenfogger, Blackfuse, Gallywix, Boss Mida, Mekkatorque, Thermaplugg, etc.

Other races? Not so much.

No, it's not "proven". The simple fact you're using "proven" instead of "evidenced" tells me you either like to use your headcanon as fact, or you simply don't know what 'proof' and 'evidence' mean.

[Teriz]

No, there wasn't, because that was never a rule. You just don't like it because it pisses on your arbitrary class design rules you like to claim as fact.

I don't play DH so I could care less about them, but I do notice on their forums that 3rd spec requests are among the top DH threads. So it would appear that DH players would greatly appreciate a 3rd spec.

No, it's not "safe to assume". Because what you're basically saying that it's "safe to assume" that in the Tolkien world, hobbits are immortal and undying, since we never actually see any hobbit dying.


No, it's not "proven". The simple fact you're using "proven" instead of "evidenced" tells me you either like to use your headcanon as fact, or you simply don't know what 'proof' and 'evidence' mean.

It's "safe to assume" and "proven" because there no examples to the contrary, nor any indication of any examples to the contrary. Again, in a video game either something exists in it or it doesn't exist.

[Ielenia]

I don't play DH so I could care less about them, but I do notice on their forums that 3rd spec requests are among the top DH threads. So it would appear that DH players would greatly appreciate a 3rd spec.

So are 4th specs for all other classes. Everyone wants to expand the current classes. What's your point?

It's "safe to assume" and "proven" because there no examples to the contrary, nor any indication of any examples to the contrary.

No, it's not "safe to assume" nor "proven" because, like I said, logic dictates that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you want to claim that only gnomes and goblins can design and create such machines, then you have to prove the other races are unable to. And just saying "I don't see any other race doing it" is not proof of anything.

Again, in a video game either something exists in it or it doesn't exist.

Except that is not true for the lore. If something is not mentioned in the lore, that does not mean said something does not exist. Again, what you're basically saying is that the hobbits are an immortal, undying race in the Tolkien universe because we never see a hobbit dying. And that the mother of the Windrunner sisters in WoW was 'spontaneously created' out of nowhere, without any need for a father or mother, since we never see any mention of her parents in the lore.

Again, just because something isn't mentioned in the lore, it's not factual evidence that said something does not exist. And the game is not an actual 1:1 representation of the lore.

[Rhamses]

Yeah. It does. However, every class plays differently, even if you strip all the 'theme' and 'lore'. So far you haven't shown how your tinker could be different other than "but it's mechanical!"

Druids are not a physical ranged class, but a Tinker class definitely could be.

[Teriz]

So are 4th specs for all other classes. Everyone wants to expand the current classes. What's your point?

My point was made above. Bringing 4th specs into this conversation is irrelevant.

No, it's not "safe to assume" nor "proven" because, like I said, logic dictates that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you want to claim that only gnomes and goblins can design and create such machines, then you have to prove the other races are unable to. And just saying "I don't see any other race doing it" is not proof of anything.

That fallacy argument doesn't apply to an object or thing. If I say there's no non-Goblin or Gnome lore characters piloting mechs in WoW, and that is indeed the case, then that is a fact. You assuming that somewhere in the lore there's an example contrary to that fact is nothing more than head-canon.

Certainly this can change. Blizzard could certainly add a non-Goblin/non-Gnome lore character who can pilot a mech into battle like Gazlowe or Gelbin. However until that occurs, my statement is a fact.

[ButterBeast]

No, you had a melee dps who could heal (in effect).
I mean literally a melee healer (the original fantasy healer) that attacks the tank to heal the tank etc. The melee healer has no concept of mana.

sounds like shit, dont think they'll add anything like that.

[Nihilan]

Bard:

Can only equip Lutes.
Can only equip cloth armor.
Provides an in-combat buff to everyone who can hear his music in combat. (Due to the noise of combat drowning out the shitty lute music, the buff range is 3 yards.)
Has 50% less hp than every other class.
Wets himself if attacked, interrupting his shitty lute music buff for the duration of combat.
Has 75% reduced movement speed with the "Pissed Himself" debuff.
Class only available to Humans and Blood Elves.

[Ielenia]

My point was made above. Bringing 4th specs into this conversation is irrelevant.

Wrong. It is relevant, because you said "people are asking for one more spec for the DH". And that's a meaningless point because people have also been asking for one more spec for all the classes for a long time, even before DHs came along. Asking for one more spec for a class is nothing new.

That fallacy argument doesn't apply to an object or thing.

Yes, it does. It applies to everything.

If I say there's no non-Goblin or Gnome lore characters piloting mechs in WoW, and that is indeed the case, then that is a fact.

No, it's not a fact. Because that hasn't been proven to be the case. Now if you want to claim that you don't see any non-goblin and non-gnome mech pilot in WoW, then yes, that would be a fact, but that still wouldn't prove that non-gnome and non-goblin mech riders do not exist in Warcraft.

You assuming that somewhere in the lore there's an example contrary to that fact is nothing more than head-canon.

No, I'm not. This further evidences my idea that you either don't know how logic works, or are being willfully dishonest. Unlike you, I'm not assuming anything. Anything not mentioned in the lore is left in a "limbo" state, kind of like Schrodinger's cat: it both exists and does not exist. The point is, we cannot assert either way.

Certainly this can change. Blizzard could certainly add a non-Goblin/non-Gnome lore character who can pilot a mech into battle like Gazlowe or Gelbin. However until that occurs, my statement is a fact.

No, it's not a fact. You're basically claiming if you're looking straight ahead through an open window, and see no one on the other side, you state "as fact" that there is no one on the other side of the window, when you don't know if there's someone crouched under the window, on the other side.

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Bard:

Can only equip Lutes. - False
Can only equip cloth armor. - False
Provides an in-combat buff to everyone who can hear his music in combat. (Due to the noise of combat drowning out the shitty lute music, the buff range is 3 yards.) - False
Has 50% less hp than every other class. - False
Wets himself if attacked, interrupting his shitty lute music buff for the duration of combat. - False
Has 75% reduced movement speed with the "Pissed Himself" debuff. - False
Class only available to Humans and Blood Elves. - False

0/10, would mock again.

[Darktbs]

So we have Ebonbolt, Glacial Spike, and talents like Black Ice, which empowers one of your spells.

Glacial spike don't do Shadowfrost damage, and again, one spell and one talent, Black ice doesn't do Shadow damage but make Flurry instant cast.
If you are paiting the Mage as a Lich for having one spell, i can say that Hunters are Tinkers because they own the explosive gameplay.

Yes they're present, but only the Frost Mage is a ranged caster that uses frost magic to control, just like the Lich did.

Actually you have shamans

LoL! You're never going to see a Hunter summoning a mech. That is way outside of their theme and purpose. A Hunter is based on Rexxar, Huntresses, Elven Archer or a Dwarven Rifleman. They have little to nothing to do with advanced technology.

Mortar team- Flare
Tinker-Explosive Shot.

They're already talking about revamping the Demonology spec, and adding 1 or 2 abilities to Frost won't be adding a "bunch of new abilities".

Frost was reworkd not long ago and the only things being added are raid buffs.

Too bad the class does, which means that Frost can get it back at any point.

The irony is not this, is that you claim so much that the Frost Dk is inspired by the Lich yet he is the only one that got the Ultimate spell removed.

So what happens when a potential class has no base?

The base comes from the creators imagination instead of a game.

"I want to create a new class/characters/map, maybe something dark...or maybe royal"
Sometimes this doesn't even happen and the designers suddenly get a idea.

Yes, and that difference is the Frost Death Knight.

Considering that you said Frost mages and Necro/lich would play differently and the Frost Dk theme is about physical attacks mixed with ice and the Lich theme is not that.

So just curious, what kind of abilities would a Lich possess that would be nothing like a Frost Mage?

Create a Wall of Bones, cast a storm that push everyone that is near him foward and deals ice damage(channel)

or

turn into a Lich is a toggle spell, that will drain resources to heavily increase the Necro damage, but if you don't acumulate resources before activating it, it will drain the Necromancer's life .

I was talking about Improved Icy Touch, Icy Reach, Black Ice, Chill of the Grave, Death Chill, Merciless Combat, Rime, Chillibains, Guile of Gorefiend, Tundra Stalker, and of course Howling Blast. Those talents were either ranged abilities, or enhanced your ranged abilities.

And what about the rest?Most of your examples also increase the damage from Physical attacks, not to mention that the theme of a Warrior of the North is very evident in the old and new talents.Which is a theme that prevail to these days, while also making references to the stark familiy in game of thrones, which is know to live in the North.
-Tundra stalker
-Blood of the North
-Merciless combat
or the one thing that is key to the Frost Dk
-Killing Machine.

The Frost Dk theme and play style mirrors a warrior of the North rather then a undead spellcaster.

[Teriz]

Wrong. It is relevant, because you said "people are asking for one more spec for the DH". And that's a meaningless point because people have also been asking for one more spec for all the classes for a long time, even before DHs came along. Asking for one more spec for a class is nothing new.

Asking for a new spec for a brand new class is quite new. I didnt see this level of new spec when the Monk class came out

No, it's not a fact.

If it's not a fact, then name the characters.

[Ielenia]

Asking for a new spec for a brand new class is quite new. I didnt see this level of new spec when the Monk class came out

Good one, Sherlock. You found out the truth that people tend to not ask for more specs for a class that doesn't yet exist. People have been asking for more specs for classes for a long time. For vanilla classes, DK, Monk and now DH. Asking for more specs is nothing new.

If it's not a fact, then name the characters.

You really don't know how logic works, and you really don't know what 'fact' means, do you? You're claiming only goblins and gnomes are capable of creating and riding mechs. You're the one making the claim. That means the burden of proof falls on your shoulders. And let me repeat for you: saying "I don't see any non-gnome, non-goblin mech pilot" is not evidence. Just because you can't see any, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Asking me to "name the characters" is very dishonest out of you, because you're asserting that I believe they exist. Let me repeat what I just wrote in my previous post since you seem to like ignoring information that inconveniences you:

Anything not mentioned in the lore is left in a "limbo" state, kind of like Schrodinger's cat: it both exists and does not exist. The point is, we cannot assert either way.