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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Again this conversation, and again people missing the point.

    -Dalaran, as an independent party was asked/offered help to secure the bell from the horde. You are all assuming that their neutrality means they can't take a side; it only means they act as an independent party with its own agenda. Preventing the horde from getting the bell was in the best interest for everyone.
    Given how state neutrality means exactly that, go figure. It's even something Jaina herself commented on when the idea of requesting Krin Tor help in Theramore first popped up. And even Vol'jin disagreed with the notion that the Horde shouldn't have the Bell, after Garrosh tried to kill him.


    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    -Also if you think that Jaina acted without the Kirin Tor's and Dalaran's support; all I can say it's highly unlikely for the leader of an organization to act against said organization's wishes/policies, and if so it would have definitely been pointed out.
    Given how she purged an entire ethnic group, including one of the Council of Six members, from the city without the Council's agreement (unless you are able to pinpoint when exactly did she ask their permission between teleporting back from Darnassus and going to Aethas), this really isn't certain.


    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    -The Sunreavers actions to help the Horde from Darnassus where undoubtedly, a betrayal of these policies. Again, it doesn't matter that it seems that Dalaran took a pro alliance decision in this -it was the decision they made and everyone was expected to follow suit.
    Got anything other than feels to prove it was Dalaran's decision rather than Jaina acting on her own? Just like she did five minutes later?


    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    But the simple fact is that the Sunreavers went against Dalaran's policies. And that's betrayal.
    A claim you supported with nothing, after you expressed the same amazing comprehension of the topic of neutrality as Jaina in MoP. Some grand point you got there. I wonder why people may have missed it
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  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    -Also if you think that Jaina acted without the Kirin Tor's and Dalaran's support; all I can say it's highly unlikely for the leader of an organization to act against said organization's wishes/policies, and if so it would have definitely been pointed out.
    “I know about the others,” Jaina interjected just a bit sharply. “I need no counsel from them regarding what I can and cannot do! They wanted me to be their leader; now they can accept my choices.”
    --Dawn of the Aspects: Part III

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The source for the Alliance attack on the Barrens doesn't even mention the word Ashenvale. And in-game we go to Ashenvale only after the events of Wolfheart, after the Cataclysm, when the invasion was already ongoing.
    It's an NPC in the last Alliance base in Stonetalon that explains the road is being made to create a supply line to help the elves on Ashenvale. This NPC is the one that later sends the player to seek Honor Point on Southern Barrens. That makes the chronology wonky.

    This is the NPC:
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Force_Commander_Valen

    Ah, found the quest:
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:The_Deep_Reaches

    Thought I'm misremembering the exact words. It just says the purpose of the road is to open a supply line to the night elves in Ashenvale.
    Whatever...

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Given how state neutrality means exactly that, go figure. It's even something Jaina herself commented on when the idea of requesting Krin Tor help in Theramore first popped up. And even Vol'jin disagreed with the notion that the Horde shouldn't have the Bell, after Garrosh tried to kill him.
    Dalaran is able to take whatever posture it deems necessary. They only owe their neutrality to themselves, and they can act if they think it's ethically imperative. That's their choice. The Bell is a powerful enough weapon that Dalaran considers necessary to risk their neutral stance over it, yet again, their political stance is entirely up to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Given how she purged an entire ethnic group, including one of the Council of Six members, from the city without the Council's agreement (unless you are able to pinpoint when exactly did she ask their permission between teleporting back from Darnassus and going to Aethas), this really isn't certain.
    Not ethnic, political faction. High elves and Blood Elves are ethnically the same.

    The fact there's not stated disentment from the Six implies that they are all on the same page. By the moment you arrive at Dalaran, Vereesa has been already instructed to act against the Sunreavers, orders had been already imparted. We are told of NO Objections from the Six, yet you assume there was any? Why?.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Got anything other than feels to prove it was Dalaran's decision rather than Jaina acting on her own? Just like she did five minutes later?
    To believe that Jaina, as the LEADER of the Kirin Tor can act "on her own" is frankly, silly. They made her their leader, sure you can say its a dictatorship, but her office grants her at worst tacit endorsement. And we NEVER saw any dissent from the rest of the six, if anything, we get CONFIRMATION from Modera herself that the rest of the council feels betrayed by the Sunreaver's actions and that she is the most forgiving one, during the Felo'melorn quest chain.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    A claim you supported with nothing, after you expressed the same amazing comprehension of the topic of neutrality as Jaina in MoP. Some grand point you got there. I wonder why people may have missed it
    Yet you think that the notion that Jaina, somehow, acted unilaterally, with no support nor endorsement of the council, is more believable scenario? At the extreme, you can say that the Council held no real power and that Jaina was acting as a dictator, yet the lack of ANY dissent, and even AGREEMENT we get confirmed by Modera herself, tells us they followed Jaina's orders. Blame them for that, but if anything, with how things played out, everyone was expected to follow Jaina's orders.

    And we never heard a peep of disagreement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    “I know about the others,” Jaina interjected just a bit sharply. “I need no counsel from them regarding what I can and cannot do! They wanted me to be their leader; now they can accept my choices.”
    --Dawn of the Aspects: Part III
    Ah, thank you. This literally confirms that Jaina is allowed to act as she sees fit and the counsel merely, counsels.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Dalaran is able to take whatever posture it deems necessary. They only owe their neutrality to themselves, and they can act if they think it's ethically imperative. That's their choice. The Bell is a powerful enough weapon that Dalaran considers necessary to risk their neutral stance over it, yet again, their political stance is entirely up to them.
    They simply aren't neutral if they favor one side over the other, simple as that, the Kirin tor was playing at neutrality due to the sunreavers in their ranks, but they did not take it seriously.

    To believe that Jaina, as the LEADER of the Kirin Tor can act "on her own" is frankly, silly. They made her their leader, sure you can say its a dictatorship, but her office grants her at worst tacit endorsement. And we NEVER saw any dissent from the rest of the six, if anything, we get CONFIRMATION from Modera herself that the rest of the council feels betrayed by the Sunreaver's actions and that she is the most forgiving one, during the Felo'melorn quest chain.
    She cannot everything needs to be voted on, the thing is Jaina merely got away with it, the most recent example was the legion intro with her telling the other the horde can shove it and won't be welcome in the city and the others merely say well then lets vote and she loses said vote and as a result quits.


    Yet you think that the notion that Jaina, somehow, acted unilaterally, with no support nor endorsement of the council, is more believable scenario? At the extreme, you can say that the Council held no real power and that Jaina was acting as a dictator, yet the lack of ANY dissent, and even AGREEMENT we get confirmed by Modera herself, tells us they followed Jaina's orders. Blame them for that, but if anything, with how things played out, everyone was expected to follow Jaina's orders.
    And this is not how dalaran works, the others most likely agreed with her. At no point in time Was Jaina actually able to push the others around, they merely let her for whatever reason.

    Ah, thank you. This literally confirms that Jaina is allowed to act as she sees fit and the counsel merely, counsels.
    No it simply means she was shirking her duties seriously and it is mentioned in the novel that it hurt her standing among the order.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They simply aren't neutral if they favor one side over the other, simple as that, the Kirin tor was playing at neutrality due to the sunreavers in their ranks, but they did not take it seriously.
    And? They literally can take whatever policy they want. They literally went alliance after those events. Again, Dalaran will take whatever exterior policy they want and/or see as ethically correct. They didn't owe their neutrality to some higher power, even concept.



    She cannot everything needs to be voted on, the thing is Jaina merely got away with it, the most recent example was the legion intro with her telling the other the horde can shove it and won't be welcome in the city and the others merely say well then lets vote and she loses said vote and as a result quits.
    And how does one get away with such a thing? I think the only reasonable answer is if they agree with it. We never got a whiff of any dissent up until that point. Did they explicit gave Jaina dictator like powers during the MoP conflict? Did they resolve to actually have a vote after these events to prevent unilaterall choices like these happening again? The fact that Jaina was not even called up on it tells us everyone was pretty much okay with her actions.

    The fact that we know that dissent is allowed show us that the council then agreed. Because that literally the only way Jaina could "get away with it".

    And this is not how dalaran works, the others most likely agreed with her. At no point in time Was Jaina actually able to push the others around, they merely let her for whatever reason.
    Yeah, the reason is that they agreed with her. If they didn't act on any dissent, it was because there wasn't.

    No it simply means she was shirking her duties seriously and it is mentioned in the novel that it hurt her standing among the order.
    Sure they might not agree and cause rifts, yet it still sounds like she can take decisions on her own. The Council stands behind her until they do not. The moment we saw a majority of the Council disagreeing, Jaina wanted no more of it and left.

    The council has the power to disagree, yet we saw no disagreement during the Purge. What does that tell us?

    Then Modera confirms us in Legion that the council saw the Sunreavers actions as betrayal as well. What does that tell us?

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    And? They literally can take whatever policy they want. They literally went alliance after those events. Again, Dalaran will take whatever exterior policy they want and/or see as ethically correct. They didn't owe their neutrality to some higher power, even concept.
    Oh they can do just that, but they don't get to say they are neutral. Which is why I said they pretended to be neutral.

    And how does one get away with such a thing? I think the only reasonable answer is if they agree with it. We never got a whiff of any dissent up until that point. Did they explicit gave Jaina dictator like powers during the MoP conflict? Did they resolve to actually have a vote after these events to prevent unilaterall choices like these happening again? The fact that Jaina was not even called up on it tells us everyone was pretty much okay with her actions.
    I am not arguing about if she got permission or not, which is utterly irrelevant to the discussion of neutrality. The Kirin tor once again were not neutral, they pretended to be and reacted outraged, because of the sunreaver "betrayal" all it demonstrated once again how dalaran operates, we are your best friends if we can get something from you, the moment you become inconvenient or the cost to maintain good relations is too steep, you will be cut loose.

    Whether Jaina had permission to help the night elves keep the bell out of horde hands or not is entirely irrelevant. Dalaran took a clear side in the conflict

    The fact that we know that dissent is allowed show us that the council then agreed. Because that literally the only way Jaina could "get away with it".
    Yes indeed because they are opportunistic and don't give a damn about allegiance, the Kirin tor are a good weather ally, which they once again demonstrated in legion and will continue to do so, by not helping the Alliance.

    Sure they might not agree and cause rifts, yet it still sounds like she can take decisions on her own. The Council stands behind her until they do not. The moment we saw a majority of the Council disagreeing, Jaina wanted no more of it and left.
    Which is entirely beside the point the moment Jaina helped the night elves put up wards the Kirin tor broke neutrality, sanctified by the council or not.

    The council has the power to disagree, yet we saw no disagreement during the Purge. What does that tell us?
    They agreed and are a bunch of opportunists willing to sell out if they deem it worthwhile.

    Then Modera confirms us in Legion that the council saw the Sunreavers actions as betrayal as well. What does that tell us?
    That they are fools playing at neutrality, despite not being neutral. They took a side by helping the Alliance and as such lost their neutral stance, they can be outraged about the sunreaver betrayal, but considering their botched up politics it is hardly surprising.

    Dalaran has a history of mistrust with its former neighbors after all.
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2017-11-27 at 10:43 PM.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The topic of that sub-discussion was specifically the quest and Sunreavers though. The Sunreavers weren't there during the fight for what we know.

    Kirin Tor having established themselves as a bunch of flip flopping neutrality breaking morons prior to the Purge does not excuse Jaina's own actions.

    It was the main supply route for the Alliance reinforcements from EK since the war resumed at the start of Catalcysm. Theramore constructed a highway across entire Dustwallow for that purpose. And Theramore's own troops were leading the Alliance incursion into Horde's territory in 4.0.

    She was doing literally just that moments before she learned of the theft.
    Well, technically it wasn't the Sunreavers who committed the theft but the players, who could only get to that quest after attacking the Nightelves, haha.

    But yeah, Jaina specifically denied requests to remove the Sunreavers from Dalaran before the theft, attempting to keep Dalaran a neutral habitat for both factions. Neutral factions in WoW have always been neutral in the sense that they do not declare for either side, but they will cooperate with both sides if it furthers their course, or fight them if they hinder it. They are never neutral in the sense that they do not interact with either faction. The Earthen Ring will act against Gnomes deciding to nuke the world as much as they would against Goblins. Similarly, worked to keep massively powerful relics from being used by to slaughter innocents. Under Jaina, they mostly tried to keep the war from escalating, as they had under Rohnin. That is why, today as well, they cooperated with both sides against the legion, even though the factions were fighting one another again.

    The neutrality of Dalaran, the city, specifically meant that the Kirin Tor would allow both factions in, let them use the portal network for their respective side and prevent fighting within the city.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    It's an NPC in the last Alliance base in Stonetalon that explains the road is being made to create a supply line to help the elves on Ashenvale. This NPC is the one that later sends the player to seek Honor Point on Southern Barrens. That makes the chronology wonky.

    This is the NPC:
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Force_Commander_Valen

    Ah, found the quest:
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:The_Deep_Reaches

    Thought I'm misremembering the exact words. It just says the purpose of the road is to open a supply line to the night elves in Ashenvale.
    How does a post-Cataclysm quest sending a player to support an outpost the Alliance captured with no player involvement before the Cataclysm make anything wonky here? I'm confused. The chronology of the road being built also says nothing. The Alliance could have built it with that purpose in mind after Garrosh attacked Ashenvale while still attacking the Barrens before he did so (with no road in place yet). Not exactly mutually exclusive things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    And? They literally can take whatever policy they want. They literally went alliance after those events. Again, Dalaran will take whatever exterior policy they want and/or see as ethically correct. They didn't owe their neutrality to some higher power, even concept.
    Nobody is saying they can't. It's just that when you act the way they did, you can't be considered neutral because you basically took a side in a war. People are not saying that Kirin Tor owed staying out of the war to the Horde, they are saying that like Theramore, they picked sides in worldwide conflicts despite all their bluster about neutrality.

    In a bizarre coincidence, Jaina is the one who created these problems regarding both city states.
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  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Dalaran is able to take whatever posture it deems necessary. They only owe their neutrality to themselves, and they can act if they think it's ethically imperative. That's their choice. The Bell is a powerful enough weapon that Dalaran considers necessary to risk their neutral stance over it, yet again, their political stance is entirely up to them.
    Neutrality works first and foremost outwards, in regards to other parties. And what, Dalaran risked its neutrality over the Bell now? Damn, it's almost as if it made Jaina a hypocrite, which is the gist of this thread. You're proving that missed point incredibly well right now.


    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Not ethnic, political faction. High elves and Blood Elves are ethnically the same.

    The fact there's not stated disentment from the Six implies that they are all on the same page. By the moment you arrive at Dalaran, Vereesa has been already instructed to act against the Sunreavers, orders had been already imparted. We are told of NO Objections from the Six, yet you assume there was any? Why?.
    They are racially the same, not ethnically. And you're the one claiming a positive, that there was an acceptance from the Council. Given that you accompany Jaina to the portal and see no interaction with the Council, good luck proving that. And where have I claimed dissent? Do point that out. Unless you're willing to admit you can't read for shit and conflate the Council dissenting with Jaina not asking them just to put nonsense in my mouth.


    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    To believe that Jaina, as the LEADER of the Kirin Tor can act "on her own" is frankly, silly. They made her their leader, sure you can say its a dictatorship, but her office grants her at worst tacit endorsement. And we NEVER saw any dissent from the rest of the six, if anything, we get CONFIRMATION from Modera herself that the rest of the council feels betrayed by the Sunreaver's actions and that she is the most forgiving one, during the Felo'melorn quest chain.
    Her office grants her jack shit. As evidenced by other rulers of the Kirin Tor the leader of the Council has pretty much just representative duties to the outside world. They don't even have a tie-breaker vote as shown by Rhonin in Tides of War. Everything else they do as a Council. Which includes dealing with traitors within the Council, as per Kel'thuzad's example.


    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Yet you think that the notion that Jaina, somehow, acted unilaterally, with no support nor endorsement of the council, is more believable scenario? At the extreme, you can say that the Council held no real power and that Jaina was acting as a dictator, yet the lack of ANY dissent, and even AGREEMENT we get confirmed by Modera herself, tells us they followed Jaina's orders. Blame them for that, but if anything, with how things played out, everyone was expected to follow Jaina's orders.

    And we never heard a peep of disagreement.
    Yes, Jaina acting with no support of the Council when she goes after Aethas immediately after she arrives in Dalaran without a single Council member sneezing in the general direction is more believable than the nonsense you're weaving here. What, am I supposed to believe Jaina has some great respect for the concept of law when the quote by @Aquamonkey exists or when she killed Aethas' guards before even laying any charges? A paragon of legalism you got there. And no way, we haven't seen any dissent. Because they story paid so much attention to Kirin-Tor's inner workings afterwards. Oh, wait, the only following events involving it was Khadgar not giving a damn about Jaina's anti-Horde stance and then convincing the Council to vote against Jaina in favor of the Horde. Nothing but unadultered support right here.


    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Ah, thank you. This literally confirms that Jaina is allowed to act as she sees fit and the counsel merely, counsels.
    Today on "words are hard".


    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    Well, technically it wasn't the Sunreavers who committed the theft but the players, who could only get to that quest after attacking the Nightelves, haha.
    Technicallier, Night Elves attack the Horde player in an ambush on their way to the Bell's location.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    But yeah, Jaina specifically denied requests to remove the Sunreavers from Dalaran before the theft, attempting to keep Dalaran a neutral habitat for both factions. Neutral factions in WoW have always been neutral in the sense that they do not declare for either side, but they will cooperate with both sides if it furthers their course, or fight them if they hinder it. They are never neutral in the sense that they do not interact with either faction. The Earthen Ring will act against Gnomes deciding to nuke the world as much as they would against Goblins. Similarly, worked to keep massively powerful relics from being used by to slaughter innocents. Under Jaina, they mostly tried to keep the war from escalating, as they had under Rohnin. That is why, today as well, they cooperated with both sides against the legion, even though the factions were fighting one another again.

    The neutrality of Dalaran, the city, specifically meant that the Kirin Tor would allow both factions in, let them use the portal network for their respective side and prevent fighting within the city.
    Factions aren't states. Dalaran is a state, Earthen Ring is not. Again, Jaina herself admitted aiding Theramore against the Horde would be against Dalaran's neutrality. And sure, Dalaran can interact with other factions. But when that interaction becomes aiding one faction against another in military context, that's a breach of neutrality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    How does a post-Cataclysm quest sending a player to support an outpost the Alliance captured with no player involvement before the Cataclysm make anything wonky here? I'm confused. The chronology of the road being built also says nothing. The Alliance could have built it with that purpose in mind after Garrosh attacked Ashenvale while still attacking the Barrens before he did so (with no road in place yet). Not exactly mutually exclusive things.
    Or Blizzard simply made a mistake with the timeline regarding the taking of Honor's Stand.

    Is there any other source that supports Alliancing was invading Barrens before Horde invaded Ashenvale?

    I'm still trying to find more information, I've done those quests years ago. There was more info about the road the Alliance was building throught southern barrens, but I'm having trouble locating the quests/NPCs that talk about it.
    Last edited by DeicideUH; 2017-11-28 at 11:28 AM.
    Whatever...

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    Did Jaina even have a lot of say in that regard? It was the Nightelves that found the bell and transported it to Dalaran. On one hand, you lament Jaina not being neutral enough, on the other you assume that, as a fully neutral character, she should have taken it from the Alliance. All she did was help secure the bell from theft by magical means which might potentially a be a non-neutral action. However, the Kirin Tor have provided logistic and defensive support to one side or the other before, so that is not something Jaina specific. And, given the fact that one side did not want to use the bell and the last time that the other stole an artifact, they used it to nuke a city, helping secure it is not exactly illogical.

    Similarly, Jaina offered logistical support to the Alliance during Cata and financial support to the Horde, along with assisting the later in some more domestic matters. Theramore only became a 'base to fight the Horde' after the latter obliterated Northwatch hold and Horde members informed her of an impending attack on Theramore. Before that, it was mostly a harbor friendly to the Alliance, but never an active base like Northwatch - which she explicitly decided not to reinforce and defend, despite knowing of the attack.
    Obviously, Jaina was always closer to the Alliance than the Horde - naturally, since of the Horde only Thrall seemed all that interested in even talking to her. But, from what the books and in-game actions have shown, she did try to help achieve peace between them. Was her approach flawed? Yes. But the intent to try and stay neutral, despite both sides seeking to force her to pick a side, seemed genuine to me. It was lessened after Cata, of course, but even in MoP, she initially refused the Alliance proposal to remove the Sunreavers from Dalaran, trusting the latter to not abuse the portal network. After all, the latter also led to Horde cities, but she never led an alliance strike group into Org to assassinate Garrosh, for example. Jaina was aware that the Sunreavers and their magi assisted the Horde every so often, just as human mages did for the Alliance. But Dalaran was supposed to be neutral ground and open for both. That is why Jaina, after finding out about the Darnassus mission, is upset about Kirin Tor members putting their allegiance towards the Horde above that to the Kirin Tor - something she had avoided for the longest time on the Alliance side.
    Firstly, I said that if she wanted to remain neutral then she should've kept the bell in Dalaran. She was perfectly within her rights to help the Alliance if she thought it was the right thing to do, but then she can't act like the Horde using their connections to Dalaran is some great betrayal. That's my entire problem with how her character is and how people treat her character, she's hypocritical, entitled, and self-centered and people act like she did nothing wrong that brought about reprisal like letting the Alliance have Theramore or helping the Alliance secure a WMD.

    Secondly, Theramore was used as the Alliance's launching point for their invasion of Kalimdor long before the destruction of Northwatch Hold. The whole reason that they built a highway from Theramore to the Barrens is because that's how the Alliance was sustaining it's invasion with reinforcements and supplies. Here's a link for that ( http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Theram...e#In_Cataclysm ). The point being that Theramore and Jaina betrayed the Horde, not the other way around.

    Thirdly, Jaina had more Horde contacts than just Thrall, namely Baine who is the one who warned her of the impending attack on Theramore to begin with. When she made Theramore the Alliance launching point for their invasion of Kalimdor, Jaina ensured that Theramore became one of the most pressing military targets for the Horde to annihilate in the world which ruined any chance of her allies in the Horde to stop an attack against them. It's kind of ironic actually, Jaina let the Alliance use Theramore because she feared it being destroyed by the Horde, but doing that ensured it's destruction.

    Lastly, you'd think as the face of the Dalaran she would think that she has to represent that ideal of Dalaran being a neutral ground rather than just another "human mage helping the Alliance", but I guess not, right? I mean if the leader of Dalaran goes picking sides then what are all of it's citizens supposed to think? It'd be like a country claiming to be neutral in a conflict while also sending forces to help defend one side in it. And about that bit where she avoided choosing to side with the Alliance "for the longest time", make sure to remember that she chose to side with the Alliance right before some of the Horde mages chose to side with the Horde over the Kirin Tor.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynny View Post
    Firstly, I said that if she wanted to remain neutral then she should've kept the bell in Dalaran. She was perfectly within her rights to help the Alliance if she thought it was the right thing to do, but then she can't act like the Horde using their connections to Dalaran is some great betrayal. That's my entire problem with how her character is and how people treat her character, she's hypocritical, entitled, and self-centered and people act like she did nothing wrong that brought about reprisal like letting the Alliance have Theramore or helping the Alliance secure a WMD.

    Secondly, Theramore was used as the Alliance's launching point for their invasion of Kalimdor long before the destruction of Northwatch Hold. The whole reason that they built a highway from Theramore to the Barrens is because that's how the Alliance was sustaining it's invasion with reinforcements and supplies. Here's a link for that ( http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Theram...e#In_Cataclysm ). The point being that Theramore and Jaina betrayed the Horde, not the other way around.

    Thirdly, Jaina had more Horde contacts than just Thrall, namely Baine who is the one who warned her of the impending attack on Theramore to begin with. When she made Theramore the Alliance launching point for their invasion of Kalimdor, Jaina ensured that Theramore became one of the most pressing military targets for the Horde to annihilate in the world which ruined any chance of her allies in the Horde to stop an attack against them. It's kind of ironic actually, Jaina let the Alliance use Theramore because she feared it being destroyed by the Horde, but doing that ensured it's destruction.

    Lastly, you'd think as the face of the Dalaran she would think that she has to represent that ideal of Dalaran being a neutral ground rather than just another "human mage helping the Alliance", but I guess not, right? I mean if the leader of Dalaran goes picking sides then what are all of it's citizens supposed to think? It'd be like a country claiming to be neutral in a conflict while also sending forces to help defend one side in it. And about that bit where she avoided choosing to side with the Alliance "for the longest time", make sure to remember that she chose to side with the Alliance right before some of the Horde mages chose to side with the Horde over the Kirin Tor.
    For the first part: again, Jaina did not control the bell. The Alliance, specifically the Nightelves, recovered it. Bringing it to Dalaran would have needed Alliance approval. The Alliance was already distrustful of the Sunreavers, wanting them expelled. Jaina chose to trust the Sunreavers specifically to not abuse their access to Dalaran, but Wrynn would not allow the Bell to be kept right under their noses, if Darnassus was available.

    The second point, again, she was supporting both sides on and off. The whole Theramore units in the Barren thing seems very out of place, not sure what is up with that. But aside from that, she provided support for both sides whenever she thought that it would save the lives of innocents in the process, for example with the Grimtotem and Thunder lizard problems. The Horde under Thrall did not attack Theramore, due to their agreement, but Garrosh actually never made any agreements with Theramore, so in my opinion, neither side really betrayed anyone. I am not sure if Jaina ever accused Garrosh of betrayal in that regard, though she did voice it towards Thrall, whom she felt betrayed by on a personal level.
    The third point goes into this. Garrosh, from taking over, has shown himself to be someone who wanted to expand the Horde's control of Kalimdor and explicitly to get rid of all non-Horde races. Without the diplomatic channels that she had with Thrall, binding herself closer to the Alliance seems more natural. In the same link you provided, the motive for assisting the Alliance was stated to be limiting Horde expansion, not attacking them. It is a situation that often is seen in real life, where otherwise neutral nations seek the umbrella of other, stronger nations when they feel threatened. But to me, that does not mean that they are not still trying to strive for peace.

    Last one: You keep saying that, but where exactly did she declare for the Alliance against the Horde before that? I can't really find any info about that. The actions - and inactions - she took right before that do not seem consistent with that. Again, she did not give the Alliance access to Orgrimmar to assassinate Garrosh through the portal network or used any other Dalaran resources to aid them before that. Plus her continued sheltering of the Sunreavers. She did not behave like a 'human mage helping the Alliance' in those scenarios, but seemed to try and be a responsible and fair leader in that regard.

    I think, in general, what we have seen of Jaina and Cataclysm is the one-sided neutrality problem. You can try to be neutral, you can try to convince others not to fight, but there are limits to that. If there is an aggressor that considers you a foe, even if you seek to be neutral towards them, can you really be? Jaina was facing that conundrum and struggled with it, making mistakes here, stuck to it commendably there. Differences in writing aside, I personally like that flawed character and character history. It is more realistic than, say, Khadgar in recent expansions where he never was faced with such decisions and could talk down to anyone from his neutral high horse.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    Yeah , but we are talking about the divine bell..if you pull in other things i can do to?? But okay lets talk about theramore. Its her town...so yeah she can let alliance use it?!?! does it forbid her do to so being in the kirin tor? as long as she acts neutral.
    Follow what was quoted all the way back. You made this initial point about Theramore which is what this specific point is responding to.

    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    - and after all she had to for the hord, and got repaid by them ( theramore) you think she might was a bit right after a other betrayal.
    Please try and keep track of what you said and what people responded to specifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    And i have pointed it out several times. Dalaran and secure!?! With that much alliance and hord traffic would have made it a power keg.
    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    How secure it was is a moot point. The point was that she had the option to secure the bell and ensure that neither side could use it, but she chose to break neutrality and side with the Alliance. And all of that is still perfectly fine, but she can't claim to have been betrayed afterwards when she betrayed the Horde first by helping the Alliance.

    You are wrong. And you can not read. You are suggesting that i think she did not make any mistakes and did everything right. She did not.
    Buts lets go be points again:
    - she had a choice and she made the safest one to store the weapon.
    - Did she breach it ?!?! Removing a WMD from a war zone is not breaching it. Storing it somewhere safe where it could not do harm is not breaching it.
    - And Her being boss in theramore or not would not have stopped the alliance if they wanted to. And she can decided to let them use it. ( its a bad choice i must add) but as long as her kirin tor duty's stay neutral ( witch she did) she can do what she want in her own town?!?!
    - Dalaran again is not save!!
    - And last time i checked the bell happened after theramore. So not being ass trustful with hord in your neutral city of dalaran after they bombed your home is logical.
    You are wrong, can't read, and have no sense of reasoning. That entire point said nothing about what you thought of the situation and was stating my reasoning for why Jaina has never been betrayed by the Horde.
    - yes she did have a choice, and she chose to help the Alliance which was betrayal of the Horde and by extension the Horde half of the Kirin Tor.
    - removing a WMD from a warzone and helping one side in a conflict secure a WMD are two entirely different things. Imagine if a country retrieved a stolen nuke and gave it to North Korea, do you think that said country could reasonably claim to be neutral in the conflict between North Korea and the USA?
    - She wasn't leader of Dalaran when she let the Alliance into Theramore. Also the Alliance didn't force her to let them in, she asked them for help in defending Theramore in case Garrosh decided to attack and their condition that they could use it as a launching point for their invasion.
    - Might've been safer than Darnassus in hindsight. Hell, it would've been harder for the Horde to steal it if the Sunreavers and the Silver Convenant were both tasked with keeping it safe from the other faction.
    - and last I checked, picking sides in a conflict invalidates neutrality regardless of your reasons, so that's a moot point.

    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    And thats my point...you are acting like nothing happened to her....And like people defending her think she is perfect ( she is not).
    Just read her wiki will you....

    As for the sunreavers: It does not matter!!! My point sigh...is that like acting that she did everything wrong and she was not triggered/pushed/etc by the hord just means you are lying to yourself. Everything that happened to her builds who she is. The alliance could use the weapon, they did not, she could have teleported it into ogrr she did not. etc etc etc

    And sylvanna's is as evil....hordy's and alliance people just have boner for her. She has done way worse then jaina.
    I'm not acting like nothing happened to her, I'm saying that what did happen to her was of her own making. Had she not let the Alliance into Theramore then the Horde would've had no reason to attack it. Had she not helped the Alliance secure the Divine Bell then the Horde wouldn't have been able to use Dalaran's portal network to sneak into Darnassus. She triggered, pushed, etc. the Horde to do what they did by breaking neutrality and siding with the Alliance. How about you try reading how she willingly let the Alliance use Theramore as a launching point where the intent of said invasion was to literally starve all of Orgrimmar to death and leave the rest of the Horde without their main fighting force, or how Varian and the other Alliance leaders were willing to use the Divine Bell and the only reason they decided against it was because Anduin talked Varian out of it. You're acting like it was pretty clear cut that the Alliance was in the right when they were acting with the intent to exterminate the Horde.

    And I never said Sylvanas isn't evil. She's done plenty of terrible things, but no one goes defending her because she doesn't turn around and play the victim by blaming everyone else for her actions. I mean, Sylvanas would be comparable to Jaina if she went on and on about how everything she did was Arthas' fault for turning her into a banshee or some shit, but she doesn't. Sylvanas owns what she does and doesn't make excuses or blame others for responding to her actions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    For the first part: again, Jaina did not control the bell. The Alliance, specifically the Nightelves, recovered it. Bringing it to Dalaran would have needed Alliance approval. The Alliance was already distrustful of the Sunreavers, wanting them expelled. Jaina chose to trust the Sunreavers specifically to not abuse their access to Dalaran, but Wrynn would not allow the Bell to be kept right under their noses, if Darnassus was available.

    The second point, again, she was supporting both sides on and off. The whole Theramore units in the Barren thing seems very out of place, not sure what is up with that. But aside from that, she provided support for both sides whenever she thought that it would save the lives of innocents in the process, for example with the Grimtotem and Thunder lizard problems. The Horde under Thrall did not attack Theramore, due to their agreement, but Garrosh actually never made any agreements with Theramore, so in my opinion, neither side really betrayed anyone. I am not sure if Jaina ever accused Garrosh of betrayal in that regard, though she did voice it towards Thrall, whom she felt betrayed by on a personal level.
    The third point goes into this. Garrosh, from taking over, has shown himself to be someone who wanted to expand the Horde's control of Kalimdor and explicitly to get rid of all non-Horde races. Without the diplomatic channels that she had with Thrall, binding herself closer to the Alliance seems more natural. In the same link you provided, the motive for assisting the Alliance was stated to be limiting Horde expansion, not attacking them. It is a situation that often is seen in real life, where otherwise neutral nations seek the umbrella of other, stronger nations when they feel threatened. But to me, that does not mean that they are not still trying to strive for peace.

    Last one: You keep saying that, but where exactly did she declare for the Alliance against the Horde before that? I can't really find any info about that. The actions - and inactions - she took right before that do not seem consistent with that. Again, she did not give the Alliance access to Orgrimmar to assassinate Garrosh through the portal network or used any other Dalaran resources to aid them before that. Plus her continued sheltering of the Sunreavers. She did not behave like a 'human mage helping the Alliance' in those scenarios, but seemed to try and be a responsible and fair leader in that regard.

    I think, in general, what we have seen of Jaina and Cataclysm is the one-sided neutrality problem. You can try to be neutral, you can try to convince others not to fight, but there are limits to that. If there is an aggressor that considers you a foe, even if you seek to be neutral towards them, can you really be? Jaina was facing that conundrum and struggled with it, making mistakes here, stuck to it commendably there. Differences in writing aside, I personally like that flawed character and character history. It is more realistic than, say, Khadgar in recent expansions where he never was faced with such decisions and could talk down to anyone from his neutral high horse.
    Firstly, then that's her problem that the Alliance didn't want the bell in Dalaran. She still chose to help the Alliance despite it meaning that she would be betraying the Sunreavers by doing so and breaking Dalaran's neutrality. Also, how could she expect the Sunreavers to not use their connections to Dalaran to help the Horde when she wasn't willing to not help the Alliance?

    Secondly, the truce between Theramore and the Horde was exactly that, a truce between Theramore and the Horde. It didn't matter if Jaina wasn't leader of Theramore or if Thrall wasn't the leader of the Horde, the truce was still valid until Jaina used Theramore to help the Alliance attack the Horde. The entire problem with a truce between state actors with no higher authority is that there's no one to punish those who break them save for those involved in the truce, so it's entirely maintained by trust between both parties. Jaina didn't trust Garrosh to uphold the truce, so rather than trusting the Horde or her allies within it (like Baine who literally warned her of Garrosh's plans to attack Theramore) to force Garrosh to uphold the truce, she broke it herself and betrayed the Horde's trust which left the Horde no other option than to take out the threat right on their front doorstep. Also, you do realize that the Alliance's invasion of the Barrens was meant to lead to the starvation of Orgrimmar, right? It wasn't some mission to halt Horde expansion, it was a means to blockade Orgrimmar from Mulgore which would result in them not being able to get food since very little grew in Durotar. That's why Garrosh had such a fixation on preventing his people from starving. So please tell how helping one side in a conflict starve out the other side can be done in the name of peace?

    Thirdly, Jaina helped the Alliance invade Horde lands and helped the Alliance secure what was basically a WMD. She was giving military support to the Alliance against the Horde. That is not neutral whatsoever. Which again, that's fine, but she can't say she was betrayed when she broke trust first. This is the entire thing that you and others are not comprehending. Yes, she did what she thought was right, but that doesn't mean that the Horde had to sit down and say "well Jaina thinks it's the right thing to do, let's just not do anything about her helping the Alliance despite her supposedly being neutral". Also, she didn't shelter the Sunreavers. The Thalassian elves had always been a part of Dalaran. They were her citizens that she treated with no regard because of her bias in favor of the Alliance. That was the entire point of Aethas' "this is our city too" speech before Jaina detained him.

    What's funny is that what Jaina did decide caused the very problems she was trying to avoid. Her letting the Alliance use Theramore made it the most important and pressing military target in all of Kalimdor for the Horde to take out. Her breaking the truce gave Garrosh every reason in the world to attack and left her allies in the Horde like Baine with no ground to stand on when it came to not attacking Theramore. Jaina involving herself in the Divine Bell incident is exactly what allowed the Horde to sneak in to Darnasssus using Dalaran's portal network because Dalaran was her blind spot. And honestly, I don't mind how Jaina is written because I'm hoping that one day she'll finally accept her role in things and acknowledge how she betrayed the Horde which left them with little other recourse than to act against her. What I do mind is people acting like her actions had nothing to do with the tragedies that happened, and that I partly blame on some of blizzard's poor writing/ game design.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Or Blizzard simply made a mistake with the timeline regarding the taking of Honor's Stand.

    Is there any other source that supports Alliancing was invading Barrens before Horde invaded Ashenvale?

    I'm still trying to find more information, I've done those quests years ago. There was more info about the road the Alliance was building throught southern barrens, but I'm having trouble locating the quests/NPCs that talk about it.
    Chronologically this is the order of things, The trade meeting between Orgrimmar and Ashenvale failed due to the twilight hammer and everyone thinking Garrosh was behind it, Garrosh invaded Ashenvale to prevent his people from starving, Jaina saw Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale as confirmation that he wouldn't uphold the truce which lead to her breaking the truce by letting the Alliance into Theramore, and then the Alliance used Theramore as a staging ground for their invasion of the Barrens.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynny View Post
    Chronologically this is the order of things, The trade meeting between Orgrimmar and Ashenvale failed due to the twilight hammer and everyone thinking Garrosh was behind it, Garrosh invaded Ashenvale to prevent his people from starving, Jaina saw Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale as confirmation that he wouldn't uphold the truce which lead to her breaking the truce by letting the Alliance into Theramore, and then the Alliance used Theramore as a staging ground for their invasion of the Barrens.
    That's how I see it as well. The problem is that, as per the book The Shattering, Garrosh only starts invading Ashenvale after the Cataclysm. But, according to the game, Northwatch took Honor's Stand before the Cataclysm. Since Honor's Stand is part of the Alliance campaign to create a supply line to Ashenvale, that creates a huge continuity snarl as the in-game information makes the Alliance (under Jaina's command!) attack first for no reason, and yet that uncalled attack is never addressed in the book.
    Last edited by DeicideUH; 2017-11-28 at 03:55 PM.
    Whatever...

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    That's how I see it as well. The problem is that, as per the book The Shattering, Garrosh only starts invading Ashenvale after the Cataclysm. But, according to the game, Northwatch took Honor's Stand before the Cataclysm. Since Honor's Stand is part of the Alliance campaign to create a supply line to Ashenvalle, that creates a huge continuity snarl as the in-game information makes the Alliance (under Jaina's command!) attacked first for no reason, and yet that uncalled attack is never addressed in the book.
    Something tells me it's a mismatch between the quest writers and the book writer tbh because the invasion of Ashenvale didn't happen til after the shattering, but the taking over of Honor's Stand happened before it which would've meant that Jaina didn't have any real reason to open Theramore to the Alliance thus the Alliance would've had no reason to take over Honor's Stand which was heavily cut off from any other Alliance encampment.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynny View Post

    Firstly, then that's her problem that the Alliance didn't want the bell in Dalaran. She still chose to help the Alliance despite it meaning that she would be betraying the Sunreavers by doing so and breaking Dalaran's neutrality. Also, how could she expect the Sunreavers to not use their connections to Dalaran to help the Horde when she wasn't willing to not help the Alliance?

    Secondly, the truce between Theramore and the Horde was exactly that, a truce between Theramore and the Horde. It didn't matter if Jaina wasn't leader of Theramore or if Thrall wasn't the leader of the Horde, the truce was still valid until Jaina used Theramore to help the Alliance attack the Horde. The entire problem with a truce between state actors with no higher authority is that there's no one to punish those who break them save for those involved in the truce, so it's entirely maintained by trust between both parties. Jaina didn't trust Garrosh to uphold the truce, so rather than trusting the Horde or her allies within it (like Baine who literally warned her of Garrosh's plans to attack Theramore) to force Garrosh to uphold the truce, she broke it herself and betrayed the Horde's trust which left the Horde no other option than to take out the threat right on their front doorstep. Also, you do realize that the Alliance's invasion of the Barrens was meant to lead to the starvation of Orgrimmar, right? It wasn't some mission to halt Horde expansion, it was a means to blockade Orgrimmar from Mulgore which would result in them not being able to get food since very little grew in Durotar. That's why Garrosh had such a fixation on preventing his people from starving. So please tell how helping one side in a conflict starve out the other side can be done in the name of peace?

    Thirdly, Jaina helped the Alliance invade Horde lands and helped the Alliance secure what was basically a WMD. She was giving military support to the Alliance against the Horde. That is not neutral whatsoever. Which again, that's fine, but she can't say she was betrayed when she broke trust first. This is the entire thing that you and others are not comprehending. Yes, she did what she thought was right, but that doesn't mean that the Horde had to sit down and say "well Jaina thinks it's the right thing to do, let's just not do anything about her helping the Alliance despite her supposedly being neutral". Also, she didn't shelter the Sunreavers. The Thalassian elves had always been a part of Dalaran. They were her citizens that she treated with no regard because of her bias in favor of the Alliance. That was the entire point of Aethas' "this is our city too" speech before Jaina detained him.

    What's funny is that what Jaina did decide caused the very problems she was trying to avoid. Her letting the Alliance use Theramore made it the most important and pressing military target in all of Kalimdor for the Horde to take out. Her breaking the truce gave Garrosh every reason in the world to attack and left her allies in the Horde like Baine with no ground to stand on when it came to not attacking Theramore. Jaina involving herself in the Divine Bell incident is exactly what allowed the Horde to sneak in to Darnasssus using Dalaran's portal network because Dalaran was her blind spot. And honestly, I don't mind how Jaina is written because I'm hoping that one day she'll finally accept her role in things and acknowledge how she betrayed the Horde which left them with little other recourse than to act against her. What I do mind is people acting like her actions had nothing to do with the tragedies that happened, and that I partly blame on some of blizzard's poor writing/ game design.
    1. The Alliance had possession of the Bell, however. The only way she could have gotten it to Dalaran in that situation would have been by stealing it from the Alliance, which would have broken neutrality all the same. Hence she decided to help secure it against theft instead, as the Alliance was a favorable alternative for possessing it than Garrosh, who had proven that he would use WMDs, if he could get his hands on them. The Alliance might have toyed with the idea, but had influential voices of reason. Those in the Horde, following her own experiences, had very little influence.

    2. Your scenario makes it sound as if Jaina was just being paranoid there. She had trusted Thrall, going as far as forcefully removing Varian when he sought to assault the former during the battle for Undercity, in order to preserve the peace. Afterwards, she helped mend relations, leading to a peace treaty between the Horde and Alliance, albeit a shaky one. That peace treaty was, for all Jaina knew, broken by the Horde. While it was Twilight's Hammer cultists that did it, they had taken the guise of Horde members and attacked Hamuul's gathering and the Nightelves. That is what reignited the war between the Horde and Alliance.
    So, you have a Horde leader that as far as you know has broken a peace treaty and declared that he will conquer the whole of Kalimdor for the Horde. Mind you, he never said 'the whole of Kalimdor with the exception of Theramore', no. Jaina's Horde allies relayed that much to her. You really think she should have just trusted in Garrosh at that point in time?

    3. See point one. She simply prevented theft, not actually helped them acquire the WMD. And that is not even necessarily an action against the Horde - it is one against any thieves. We have seen factions like the Twilight Hammer or Legion affiliated cults steal powerful artifacts or turn people traitor to cause destruction. I mean at that point, it is not even breaking trust, since the Sunreavers or Horde in general, would not have access to Darnassus in general without besieging the city. Without the Sunreaver traitor giving the Horde access to the portal network, they would not even have had any opportunity to steal it that Jaina's actions could in any way influence. Without said betrayal, Jaina's actions in this scenario had zero effect on the Horde.
    Also, she sheltered them by not expelling them, as the Alliance demanded. Precisely because she considered the city theirs too, at that point in time.

    4. See above for the breaking the truce part. Garrosh didn't need more reason to attack Theramore, he had already planned all of that and was not listening to his more level-headed advisors. Heck, Cairne got killed trying to stem that aggression. Baine had about zero influence, which Jaina knew due to the former being forced to come to her for aid when Garrosh refused it to him. Voljin and Saurfang were not trusted by Garrosh either. Heck, I have never seen any indication that Garrosh even differentiated between Theramore and the Alliance, before or during Cata. He very much thought only across racial lines.
    Her actions regarding the Divine Bell did not somehow force the Horde to do anything, either. Garrosh wanted that thing, and the traitor would have given the infiltrators access anyway.
    That is the thing with this point - you act as if Jaina somehow forced Garrosh to do all those things, when his actions - and words during War Crimes - clearly indicate he would have done it anyway.
    But that is Garrosh. Not the Horde. Jaina attested to that as well, when she managed to overcome a lot of her trauma during the trial, making peace with Thrall and Voljin in the process. She accepted past mistakes as part of her implicitly and owed up to them.

    Only for Blizz to drop the ball again in Legion, grml.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynny View Post
    Something tells me it's a mismatch between the quest writers and the book writer
    i think it's just that as well. The problem is that in every online discussion this discrepancy between book and game is used to defend the actions of one faction over the other ("Jaina talks about peace but attacked first" vs. "Horde pushed into Ashenvale first").
    Whatever...

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    1. Yeah, thank god it's hidden in Dalaran with a group that has NEVER EVER caused a shattering by playing with dangerous magic.

    2. Doesn't matter who she chose to trust, she took the Alliance side and therefor broke neutrality.

    3. In war a shield is just as important as a sword. She basically made sure that the Alliance had a weapon against the Horde.

    4. "She accepted past mistakes as part of her implicitly and owed up to them."
    Really, how long did Jaina spent in jail because of the innocent people she killed out of anger?
    1. Que? Unless you are referring to the Nightelves and the original Well of Eternity. Most races in Azeroth have examples of them playing with dangerous magic and that going badly. But if you are seriously saying that Garrosh would have been responsible with the Divine Bell....well, first thing he did after getting it was turning his own people into Sha....

    2. I was talking specifically about trust with that person, though. And Garrosh, to her knowledge, broke a peace treaty and announced that he will conquer Theramore. Neutrality is not really an option when the other person wants to kill you. Tons of people in Horror movies would stay neutral, otherwise.

    3. The Alliance already had that weapon, she mostly made sure that no third party could get it.

    4. Where did she kill innocent people out of anger, actually? The only occasion that would come to mind here would be the purge of Dalaran, which was a pretty bloody affair, due to the general chaos and subterfuge. Most of the Sunreavers that died did so resisting arrest by fighting, though. A nebulous situation with sadly too many parallels to the war on terror to really be discussed properly on a board like this.
    She did suffer a fatal wound protecting members of the Horde, though. Vol'jin officially forgave her in his function as warchief, with Ji-Chi agreeing.

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