I hate how this game depends on healers to be played

[Rorke]

Duels and random pvp have never been balanced. Welcome to 2004 when the game came out. Blizz has outright said over and over they have no desire to do it, either.

It doesn't matter if its never been balanced. It's been more engaging in the past where you felt like you had more control over your own destiny.

[cparle87]

It doesn't matter if its never been balanced. It's been more engaging in the past where you felt like you had more control over your own destiny.

Considering this is the first xpac where everyone has a cc-breaking pvp trinket I'd have to disagree.

[Rorke]

Considering this is the first xpac where everyone has a cc-breaking pvp trinket I'd have to disagree.

That doesn't change the fact that Mages just auto lose vs anything that isn't a Ret or Warrior.

[Stormspellz]

That doesn't change the fact that Mages just auto lose vs anything that isn't a Ret or Warrior.

hard counters, spec's not being solo viable, ect have always existed. And mages have a better chance today vs a disc then they did back in bc.

[ilik2345]

Pruning the defensive cds and sustainability of dps classes killed this game for me. Hybrid dps like Balance/Ele/Spriest can't off heal like they used to and feel like you're playing a Warrior. By pruning or nerfing dps survivability has made the healing role way more powerful and dps are now designed to be dependent on healers for the game to function.

Duels and random bg pvp is horrendous as a result of this. Every dps spec just feels exactly the same. Most specs only have one shield wall or a block or something stupid like Karma but that's about it. There's no more days where a good Mage can get a good Evocation off and heal to full or a Ret that can keep his Warrior partner alive with off healing support in 2's. 2's is actually a good example on how bad this problem is because 90% of specs have to play with a healer or else its auto lose. And the other 10% have to work 100 times harder to win over a dps/healer team that just has to pve their way to victory.

Game is just dominated by the healing role and the ability level of the healer. This game revolves around an unpopular role that only a handful of people enjoy. It's no wonder arena participation is so low. There's no games because there's a shortage of healers because most people don't want to heal.

The solution should be to make dps more self sufficient which puts less responsibility on the shoulders of the healer. I'd also like to see healers more dps/cc oriented rather than just passive pillars of immortality.

There was a point i think it was in wrath, where you'd see rogues heal from nearly dead to full while out healing incoming damage, do you really want every dps you meet to have its own invisible pocket healer, as that is kinda what your asking for. To be fair that example was nerfed quite quickly, but it was really annoying for anyone who did not play a rogue.

The current state is dps are more self sufficient then they were in vanilla and tbc, back then the only dps classes that could heal were the old hybrid specs, then they gave healing to everyone and a ton of it, which was horrible, then they nerfed it and i'd suggest its about right - however i'd like to be back to the old situation where a dps just did not heal unless they ate or bandaged. Not that i'm saying it would make it balanced, but i feel it would be a step in the right direction of lowering the current trend of bursting people down.

[Nurvus]

Healers are a major pain, but they're one of three problems.

1) Time to kill is all over the place. 9/10 cases you get gibbed in a stun by things like ret / fury, and the other 1/10 is a warlock, a healer or a tank that simply never dies. This leads to time-to-heal also being really small, as healers are designed in a way to counter insane dps some classes can do. ...Designed badly, as it's just frustrating to fight them most of the time.

2) Related to the first two -- HP isn't as worthwhile a resource as it should be, because there is very little in ways of middle ground between it being gone in 3 seconds, and it being back to 100 because you're in a line of sight of a healer.

3) Gear power creep. Even with templates, the numbers are largely adjusted for PvE damage / healing, in a way that allows a healer to heal a tank that in turn is designed to withstand attacks of a 25 man mythic raid boss, and the DPS are designed to take that boss down faster than the boss can take down them; To simplify -- DPS is too high, because high-end PvE boss hp & damage is too high, leading to tank HP being too high, leading to healing being too high to keep up with those things. <= All that, for PvP, because of how PvE works in WoW.

So, realistically, healers are OP in PvP because they have to deal with PvE damage. The TRUE way to fix WoW PvP is to design PvE with less rampant power creep on high-end bosses, that in turn requires player power creep to go up as well. Templates can only do so much because they also go up in 'base' stats as patches come out, effectively nullifying the part where they should, in theory, deal with said power creep. Players are more equal than in previous expansions but they are still too powerful in relation to where they should be.

It's also why hybrid healing is low. It's not that hybrid healing has been directly nerfed; it's more that it simply can't keep up with burst damage, healer healing or hilariously bloated hp bars.

...And the less I say about world PvP -- the better.

The issue in PvP has always been and will always be the lack of Defensive Stats.
Ignoring Versatility as it is "neutral", your output is contributed by Primary Stat * Crit * Haste * Mastery while your Effective Health is essentially Stamina because Armor only works against 10% of the damage most of the time.

We need Resistance to come back (as a magic version of Armor, not the old version) plus a few defensive stats with their own stat slots - not by replacing Primary or Secondary.
This way the speed at which your HP drops from 100% to 0% won't change so much between the first and last seasons of the expansion.
Templates won't even be needed.
World PvP can actually work again.

[Locruid]

Considering this is the first xpac where everyone has a cc-breaking pvp trinket I'd have to disagree.

You mean the Trinket that has had a 2 min cooldown since god created the Earth. That cooldown was in effect back when CC had longer cooldowns. Now CC is thrown around like pennies with very little cooldowns and the Trinket hasnt changed one iota.

My Resto Druid has been dropped MANY times by Warriors, Sub Rogues and Frost Dk's.

Just like today, I got caught without my trinket. Frost DK stunned me WHILE I WAS IN BEAR FORM. Hit my Barkskin, 4 seconds later I'm down to 25% health Hit my Frenzy Regen and I'm still going down. Pop all Hots and all they doing is mitigating his damage not over coming it. At this point I can try to run away with gimp ass shifting just for him to keep his sustained going AND keeping me slowed. Or I can try to heal. Shit missed the juke, I'm silenced....I'm dead

On the other hand have the group ignore you and if you have Nourish and Abundance......noone will die...period. once I'm ramped up and got all my hots on the person I'm saving....1.4 million insta Casts on a mana efficient heal. Yea baby.

[Nitros14]

Every dps spec having ten health bars made pvp pretty toxic for me. I welcome healers being the ones who heal.

[Dundebuns]

I am a big fan of hybrids being able to off heal at the expense of their DPS. The best example of this was Enhance shaman in previous patches, where their heals cost maelstrom, but if they spent their maelstrom on off healing, their DPS dropped accordingly.

[Blamblam41]

I'm just in general sick of Legion's class design. Nothing about it is interesting or compelling when the class fantasy revolves around all the dps classes having next to 0 utility and self heal. It makes PvE suffer as well, as a lot of mythic bosses have more to do with healer coordination more than group coordination save for certain dps checks or mechanics.

It's just a bad design, and trying to push classes into a certain, restrictive 'fantasies' definitely did not help, either.

[twistedmynd]

Honestly it's always been near impossible to score kills in 2v2 against healer+dps. The lack of personal cd's actually made the long, 15 min, braindead games much shorter. I think most players who queue only 2s are on board with the change.

And like many have said: in 3s (which is what the game is balanced around) people are dropping in 4 second stuns with coordinated burst. Even with more defensive buttons, how can you activate them to live through that kind of burst?

Advice: OP, you should really reroll a healer.

[Deleted]

Healer and dps balance in battlegrounds is atrocious.
Melee just dominates everywhere.

Playing dk = pop cds run into 7 people still gets kill on tank efc. 1min bursts

Playing caster = dot everyone, die. Trying to cast spells is like kidney shotting youself. Long cds. Defensives relying on healers, pretty much unplayable withou one.


Playing fotm melee - cd=kill, defensive=invicibility, gap closers, pve damage, playing against no healers is autowin, top meters by cleaving stuff

[lolskillzz]

i agree with OP. healers heal for way too much but it is justified because burst and damage is way to high. they need to scale back the chunky amounts of damage that are present aand tune heealers back. give hybrids more of healing utility at the cost of daamage and make it a mana war/cc/dps war again. not this crap we have now that is digusting and why melee run rampant. dps shouldnt be able to do more then 20-30% of someone hp in a single ability (rough rough number) but at the same point a healer shouldnt be able to live through dps pounding on them. dps should be able to beat a healer 1v1 w/o dampening. it should be a slow drawn out process but it should be able to happen overtime or faster if they cc and kick or "pve" right. healers should rely on teamates too peel and cc, and heals should be able to cc to peel for themselves.

pvp has become too much of a cc and basically one 1 shot someone before heals get out and top them and u waaste cds (at high levels of play) its boring and not fun and helps to foster the stale boring gameplay and viability of only certain classes and play styles.

anyone who cant see this is probably bad at the game or didnt pvp in the "good ole" days when pvp was still good.

[Riistov]

idk man. I capped a priest alt like 2 days ago, carried -so- many BGs as holy it's unreal. Literal easy mode after switching from DK. Yes, I freaking said it; When your class is easier to play in a gamewinning, impactful way than a 3-button frost dk (that is also objectively overpowered right now) you know there's a problem.

Random BGs are a horrible example. The skill of the people you're fighting with and against varies wildly as there is no MMR, and anyone can look good when going against inferior competition.

Try playing your priest alt in 3s against FDK/WW Monk and get back to me.

[Saberstrike]

Random BGs are a horrible example. The skill of the people you're fighting with and against varies wildly as there is no MMR, and anyone can look good when going against inferior competition.

Try playing your priest alt in 3s against FDK/WW Monk and get back to me.

The problem with your argument is that 1) I don't care about arena, I want to play BGs and World PvP; 2) NOTHING survives ww + dk. Imagine if there was a DPS that can go 1v2 forever and still perform it's role. That just does not happen. It shouldn't happen -- for any role.

Imagine the whine if I told you that 'well you need a resto shaman to heal you if you want to survive a single dk sitting on you'. That's exactly what it feels like when people bring up 'Well when two DPS perfectly coordinate everything and go all out I'll maybe die if I get no help'.

[Deleted]

People are always ignoring facts about healers:

1. If healers aren't overpowered, why is there dampening, even in 3v3 Arena? Dampening is the official Blizzard statement that healers are overpowered. Period.
2. Not playing with a healer, either in 2s or 3s, is most likely equal to minus 500 rating, based on whatever rating you would achieve with a healer.

So a healer is worth way way more than a DPS in PvP, and this feels very unfair!

Now you may ask yourself, if healers are so extremely overpowered and so much more worth in PvP than a DPS, why isn't it a good thing to play double (2s) or tripple (3s) healer in Arena games?

1. Dampening, it eventually works against healers.
2. If there was no dampening, double or tripple healer teams would succeed 100% at what they are designed for. Remember, healers are there to PREVENT results, while DPS BRING results. The definition of a result in PvP: death of someone. So a tripple healer team would succeed at reaching the time limit of the game without a result, so in fact the healers would achieve exactly what they are designed for, without giving the DPS team the slightest chance to change that. Of course no one wants a draw in PvP after 25 min of playtime.

There's only one question I cannot answer: why are the game developers keeping healers like this?

No matter what part of the PvP game I play, be it random BGs, rated BGs or Arena, for me it would and is much more enjoyable without the presence of tanks and especially healers (the real PvP tanks).

[ilik2345]

Dampening was brought in to reduce game times, it used to be games would last forever just to get a draw (where you both lose). Even without dampening 3 healers were not a proper thing as they lacked damage to kill anyone so it just meant a draw (this might be a bit different now that healers hit a bit harder).

Basically there is a wide range of skills - despite what seems to be a few buttons left to each class you still have quite a large difference between a good healer and a not so good one, same with dps. Dampening helps the lower end of the dps scale get kills, and reduces the effectiveness of the better healers - This results in shorter more exciting arena's.

There is no dampening in RBG's and trust me, healers die, all the time.

[Druitz]

Healers are not op ofc rofl. At below 2.4k mmr (i havent been higher) i had like 5 games max out of like 1k that lasted 8-10min. Ofc i am not talkinc about 2v2. Sometimes you cant overheal dmg even without dampening. The reason why games at 3k mmr last longer (until 40% dampening sometimes) is because of cooldown coordination. Actually dps are op. Some dps defensive cooldowns are insane like fdk death strike for 4mln. Destro wall or mage temporal shield.

Also healers are actually way much harder than dps. You get punished fof everything. Even getting locked hurts much more than if caster is locked. Most of the have multiple spell schools like ele shaman after getting locked into fire can stil do decent dps.

Try to play healer at mid rate ( 2.2k) i cant imagine how hard is it at 3k. Also wow will NEVER be balanced about casual pvp so dont take random battkegrounds as example. Even rated bgs are not worth talking about as game pvp is balanced about 3v3 mainly

[Lightbull]

I agree, and I don't like that people are trying to push the BG/World PvP argument out of the way because they like Arena more. Casual PvP is just as important.

[Useful]

Playing as fury warrior recently, I faced mirror situations. Sometimes i 100-0 a healer within a stun, sometimes i hit like a wet noodle with swifty macro. I have no idea whats going on but soloing a healer can be fun or frustrating, but never both. Probably thats why i barely play arena, and god forbid play it as a healer.