Legion messed up the entire Warcraft universe

[Lorgar Aurelian]

When you're taking massive breaks in dialogue to recap the entire history of Sylvanas Windrunner, that's bad writing. You might not mind it, but it's objectively bad writing. How are phrases like "Holly jolly" a subjective thing?

From what you showed it was a physical descetion unless there is more not in your post, though explaing her whole background in a book wouldn’t be to bad if she was a key focus of that book. And holly jolly is subjective because you might not like the phrasing but other may find it fits not that I can say if I do or not without more context on why it was said.

[ChronoSul]

There's only so much they can do with the big cosmic Galactus-style stuff in WoW. At the end of the day we're playing 2~8 foot tall mortals. Unless you want us to get some giant Gurren Lagann style mecha, we're never going to be able to go toe-to-toe with the likes of Sargeras.

It's ultimately for the best that they bring the cosmic-level stuff to an end. The scale doesn't suit the medium.


Now that Sargeras, the Pantheon, and the Burning Legion are squared away, they can return to conflicts on the scope of a world, starting with a return to faction conflict and a passing of the torch to a new generation of mortal heroes and villains.

The void lords are essentially a blank slate, and when the time comes to start bringing them into focus, Blizzard now has the freedom to take a completely different approach with them than they did with Sargeras and the Legion. I, for one, hope that they take a similar approach to the Lovecraftian elder gods, allowing them to assume mortal forms and interact with us on a more reasonable scale, more akin to the Lich King or Illidan than Archimonde or Sargeras, while still wielding the power to corrupt and destroy worlds.

I know people keep saying we couldnt go toe to toe with Sargeras but in theory we could. the hardest part would be getting onto his body but from there we could pull a draenor and rip him apart with a ton of portals

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Because she writes the characters completely different than how they are written in the game, and she can't even write them well. Jaina as a character has been butchered to absolute hell under her reign between war crimes and tides of war alone.

For a woman she certainly only seems capable of writing men.

- - - Updated - - -



Don't bring earth into this. This is a fantasy, the problem is when the fantasy loses what little sense it was trying to make and loses that fantastic feeling.

How do you think Jaina was butchered in tides of war? I thought it was done very well and it’s how i would expect her to act though the events of the book other then mabye the part where she grabed a shard of glass to stop an orc. War crimes I don’t remember as much of as I didn’t like the book that much but I don’t remember Jaina being done poorly.

[Fayolynn]

Honestly if there was some catastrophe on earth how long do you think it would be before we started fighting each other? :P
But no I know what you’re saying. I thought it was odd after uniting and facing the biggest threat we’ve had we just went back to fighting each other. I know “the planet is bleeding” I was just speaking on the more basic theme of each expansion. Like BfA (minus bleeding planet part) is a decent enough and logical theme for WoW, that being Horder vs. Alliance.

The problem with the AvsH theme is the story goes nowhere due to needing to maintain the status quo

[Frostyfire14]

Just look at what this expansion did in just about a year:
- They wasted the Emerald Nightmare as an entry raid. Ursoc gone, Xavius gone.

Wasted? Just because a small percentage wanted an EXPANSION on a dreamland doesn't mean its quality content. I think it was fine how it was implemented.

- Gul'dan gone in the same tier.

Guldan was in all of WoD? Did you not pay attention?

- Helya introduced and thrown away in a half-tier.

She was a pawn of Odyn who betrayed him and ruled the dead of the kvaldir. Nothing special here. Fitting for a raid boss and lore for the zone.

- Kil'jaeden gone.
- Aggramar used as a pre-final boss.
- Other titans shown all at once and then just put away again.
- Argus is done with (the planet as well as the guy).
- Sargeras introduced and locked away in the same cutscene. Only thing he says is 'no'.

- Illidan re-introduced and then put away again.

He had his story arc, and then ANOTHER story arc. People will get bored of him quickly if they made him the star again. He was developed well in Legion, way better than TBC.

- A lot of other major lore characters, important weapons (artifacts) used outside of raids and pretty much thrown away.

Artifact Weapons are being treated the same way you don't still use Thunderfury, or Sulfuras. Where's the uproar over those "iconic" weapons that we no longer use?

This whole post is full of salt and invalid concerns.

[Maxilian]

How do you think Jaina was butchered in war crimes? I thought it was done very well and it’s how i would expect her to act though the events of the book other then mabye the part where she grabed a shard of glass to stop an orc. War crimes I don’t remember as much of as I didn’t like the book that much but I don’t remember Jaina being done poorly.

People dislike the Warcrime Jaina, cause she looks like she got things solved in her mind with the Horde, to then go BOOM! I hate the Horde again, its not like it doesn't make sense, but i would have liked them to show the hate of the Horde based around her self hate (as, pointed out in Blizzcon, she is kind of at fault for what the Horde is today -for good or bad-)

[Frostyfire14]

The problem with the AvsH theme is the story goes nowhere due to needing to maintain the status quo

You're right, take a look at Classic. Story went no where.

There will be a big bad in BFA, people need to chill out. Its not even in Beta yet.

[Projectmars]

Atleast BfA is a credible Warcraft story. The Burning Legion has always been a joke and WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too large of a threat. It’s just too large scale. .

Credible? It’s about as incongruous with the more recent plot as you could get. It’s utterly confusing as to why we are getting a sudden, jarring left turn into a Faction Warfare based plot (as if it worked last time they did this) because there is no logical way for the plot to be continuing naturally into what we’re getting with BfA.

Traditional, sure. That does make sense. But the plot of BfA is already looking as credible as my beachfront property in Colorado.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

People dislike the Warcrime Jaina, cause she looks like she got things solved in her mind with the Horde, to then go BOOM! I hate the Horde again, its not like it doesn't make sense, but i would have liked them to show the hate of the Horde based around her self hate (as, pointed out in Blizzcon, she is kind of at fault for what the Horde is today -for good or bad-)

Oh crap I meant tides of war not war crimes to be honest I don’t remember most of war crimes outside of garroshs and slyvanas scenes.

[Deleted]

Legion had enough lore for 5 expansions, as far as I see it. But instead they chose to rush through everything and throw away most of what many players know about Warcraft. Good job.

Interesting,

haven't looked upon it this way, but you're actually right.
The problem however lies much deeper in my opinion:

Back when WoW launched the Legion itself has allways been the big, dark nemesis beyond, we didn't even see its full potential and were fighting minor members like Dreadlords, Infernals or sometimes a Pit Lord. Big powerful demons that however were just minor minions.
Eredars were something you didn't fight. It was something that has powers beyond everything players could come up with.

With more and more expansions the Legion as a threat lost its nimbus of being something not understandable, something more physical and thus something you could battle against.

Look at it this way: The whole story before WoW was centered around trying to hide from the burning legion. Nelves abandonned magic in order to not attract them again. In WC3 we just stopped an invasion to hide against.
BC was about Illidan who escaped to the outlands to close all portals.

But after expansion and expansion we killed more and more demons as if they were mere murlocs and thus the threat became more and more of a nuisance.

I guess after the Legion lost its nimbus of being a fundamental force of "nature" or existance but rather something like an alien civilization, it was no longer thrilling to fight.
It was no longer a fight against a mythological hell in which only the holy light can help, it was just fighting some other species or races that are trying to invade like in a bad sifi story.

Simply put:
The Legion lost its uniqueness, its mystic aura and thus it might be good that it is finally gone. Blizzard maybe just wanted to get rid of every story arc that was connected to the whole legion story, getting rid of guldan, illidan, kil jaeden, sargeras and the titans.



Personally I miss the world when there were still secrets left taht we just couldn't comprehend. When we just didn't know what the titans really were and what their purpose was. When titan facilities like those in WotLK just felt overwhelmingly uncomprehensable and beyond everything. Something we would never be able to discover leaving us riddel.
I still remember the first time I was in Uldaman and was stunned about it. I was riddeling what those big machines in Storm Peaks were used for and so on.

I miss when the Legion was something like Hell and the devil itself that was eternal and undefeatable, just the personification of evil.

The game and story was better when we didn't know every secret behind it, when we just were mere mortals that foudn something we couldn't understand.
When we didn't know what the Light was and when old gods were mysterious beings.


I'm not sure if Blizzard will ever be able to recreate that feeling with the Void Lords.

[pateuvasiliu]

Players are now at a level where they are fighting the likes of Archimonde and Kil'jaeden unaided.

They cannot waste time with Gul'dan, who's just an orc, for ages. They will steamroll easy targets.

[lummiuster]

I just saw the ending cinematic of Antorus. It's amazing how little I care about anything happening here.

In my opinion they completely destroyed the entire Warcraft story with Legion. They rushed through a lot of major villains and other characters like the titans without much buildup. Nothing feels like it matters anymore. We see Sargeras and I don't feel anything.

Just look at what this expansion did in just about a year:
- They wasted the Emerald Nightmare as an entry raid. Ursoc gone, Xavius gone.
- Gul'dan gone in the same tier.
- Helya introduced and thrown away in a half-tier.
- Kil'jaeden gone.
- Aggramar used as a pre-final boss.
- Other titans shown all at once and then just put away again.
- Argus is done with (the planet as well as the guy).
- Sargeras introduced and locked away in the same cutscene. Only thing he says is 'no'.
- Illidan re-introduced and then put away again.
- A lot of other major lore characters, important weapons (artifacts) used outside of raids and pretty much thrown away.

I'm really sorry, but this is too much. Far too much.
In the last expansion it all led up to Archimonde. And now here we are throwing away major lore characters left and right - and that's not even enough. We need to introduce new ones like Argus and then throw them away as well. And all of that on top of throwing away a whole arsenal of legendary weapons that had major lore significance.

It's like they threw everything into this that once had a name in the Warcraft universe. And for what? Now everything feels irrelevant. It's like our characters are plowing through the entirety of Warcraft history and just burning everything to the ground.

Legion had enough lore for 5 expansions, as far as I see it. But instead they chose to rush through everything and throw away most of what many players know about Warcraft. Good job.

No man they did well believe me. It took them 13 years to bring everything up slowly. You can't end everything slowly people would get bored of the same things happening on and on. It was well designed imo. Also you gotta think about the future which is:
-1 expansion BfA in which we "save azeroth" by gathering azurite
-1 expansion where we kill the old gods who tried to do bad things 1 last time
- Release of a new mmo or warcraft4 or new project from blizzard.

[A dot Ham]

Just look at what this expansion did in just about a year:
- They wasted the Emerald Nightmare as an entry raid. Ursoc gone, Xavius gone.
- Gul'dan gone in the same tier.
- Helya introduced and thrown away in a half-tier.
- Kil'jaeden gone.
- Aggramar used as a pre-final boss.
- Other titans shown all at once and then just put away again.
- Argus is done with (the planet as well as the guy).
- Sargeras introduced and locked away in the same cutscene. Only thing he says is 'no'.
- Illidan re-introduced and then put away again.
- A lot of other major lore characters, important weapons (artifacts) used outside of raids and pretty much thrown away.


Legion had enough lore for 5 expansions, as far as I see it. But instead they chose to rush through everything and throw away most of what many players know about Warcraft. Good job.

5 xpacs of demons and fel... what do you think guys should we promote him to Lead Designer? *crickets*

-Everyone thinks there is/was enough "lore" behind the Emerald Dream/Nightmare to have its own xpac... I disagree and so does Blizzard. It got a zone and a raid. Entry level or not... it was well done.
-Gul'dan should have been gone LAST xpac
-Helya needed to die to free Illidan's soul (a doubt you paid enough attention to your "precious lore" to know that)
-Kil'Jaeden is gone... ya about fucking time. Honestly his non-death in BC was anti-climactic. Another non-death defeat would have been infuriating.
-Aggramar? Not sure what your issue is... that he isn't a final boss?
-Titans have their place... not everything needs to be revealed at once... you want them to stick around and pat you on the back for a job well done?
-Argus we kind of knew that going into it didn't we? Cybertron was brought back in Transformers 5, despite being ripped apart by a black hole in Transformers 3. Never say never.
-Sargeras... he's been mysterious from the beginning and we're just imprisoning him. He was literally about to skull fuck the planet and dry hump it raw... what exactly would you have us do/Blizzard write?
-Illidan was reintroduced to fulfill his purpose... to put an end to that story arch.
-In comparison to villains I don't think any of the weapons we are wielding have overly strong significance.

Blizzard is tying up a lot of loose ends. You are suggesting that Blizzard simply leave EVERYTHING open ended for 5+ xpacs? Fuck off man... There are plenty of us who are glad to finally get some closure, and while Blizzard's story telling can be pretty lacking at times (an mmo is a poor medium for story advancement) we are relatively satisfied with the outcomes.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Players are now at a level where they are fighting the likes of Archimonde and Kil'jaeden unaided.

They cannot waste time with Gul'dan, who's just an orc, for ages. They will steamroll easy targets.

Wernt we added for both archiamond and kJ? Wasn’t khadgar even there to help us with Guldan?

[Fayolynn]

You're right, take a look at Classic. Story went no where.

There will be a big bad in BFA, people need to chill out. Its not even in Beta yet.

Classic didn't really focus on A vs H much storywise it was mostly about dealing with small local threats and setting up future storylines (old gods and us needing to deal with the lich king). Cataclysm is the best example of an A vs H themed story and it was poorly done, atleast the zone revamps. The new content wasn't bad but the focus in them wasn't on the faction conflict but on the new emerging threats/deathwing.

[pateuvasiliu]

Wernt we added for both archiamond and kJ? Wasn’t khadgar even there to help us with Guldan?

Sure, but Khadgar, Grom, Yrel and co aren't massively stronger than players. Compare that to killing Yogg-saron with the aid of Keepers.

[Lochton]

Just look at what this expansion did in just about a year:
- They wasted the Emerald Nightmare as an entry raid. Ursoc gone, Xavius gone. - We didn't even touch the whole nightmare but it was an interesting raid. Xavius was to be defeated at some point. And Ursoc, technically not gone, wild gods gets reborn.
- Gul'dan gone in the same tier. - That was needed, and thank god.
- Helya introduced and thrown away in a half-tier.- Helya was defeated yes, but not killed.
- Kil'jaeden gone. - About time we got to kill him, though.
- Aggramar used as a pre-final boss.- Felt fine where he is.
- Other titans shown all at once and then just put away again.- What? You wanted a reputation with each titan? And no, we weren't meant to fight them.
- Argus is done with (the planet as well as the guy).- The planet was done before we arrived, a husk of what it was. Argus, a tormented remnant, had to be put down, the boy had rabies.
- Sargeras introduced and locked away in the same cutscene. Only thing he says is 'no'.- Was the only logical way, to be honest, I have never been able to imagine us trying to take him down. Sorry.
- Illidan re-introduced and then put away again.- About time, he should've stayed on the shelf longer. At least the didn't go with the whole sacrifice, now he'll be the homeboy of the Pantheon.
- A lot of other major lore characters, - It was a sad loss but heroes cannot keep treading the soil.
- important weapons (artifacts) used outside of raids and pretty much thrown away.- Well, we don't know how fully but I have a feeling we'll sacrifice them for a good reason. Besides, didn't like the weapons, the system was good but not as weapons.

And all my doubt comes to a phrase a demon said. A demon basically told us we were making a mistake as the Legion is needed against the Void.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Sure, but Khadgar, Grom, Yrel and co aren't massively stronger than players. Compare that to killing Yogg-saron with the aid of Keepers.

Didn’t khadgar go toe to toe with gul’dan when he had all the power of the tomb? Don’t know about grom or yrel but I’d think he’d atlest be a lot stronger then us.

[Wildberry]

And holly jolly is subjective because you might not like the phrasing but other may find it fits not that I can say if I do or not without more context on why it was said.

It objectively doesn't fit though. The phrase "Holly jolly" is rooted specifically in a Western Cultural Context, and is jarring to see in Azeroth. As for the context of the phrase within the story, not that it has any bearing on this discussion:

"No, I really mean it. I'm not cut out for this environment. I used to work in Winterspring. I'm a snow-loving, snuggle-by-the-fire, holly-jolly kinda goblin."

[Khallid]

I just saw the ending cinematic of Antorus. It's amazing how little I care about anything happening here.

In my opinion they completely destroyed the entire Warcraft story with Legion. They rushed through a lot of major villains and other characters like the titans without much buildup. Nothing feels like it matters anymore. We see Sargeras and I don't feel anything.

Just look at what this expansion did in just about a year:
- They wasted the Emerald Nightmare as an entry raid. Ursoc gone, Xavius gone.
- Gul'dan gone in the same tier.
- Helya introduced and thrown away in a half-tier.
- Kil'jaeden gone.
- Aggramar used as a pre-final boss.
- Other titans shown all at once and then just put away again.
- Argus is done with (the planet as well as the guy).
- Sargeras introduced and locked away in the same cutscene. Only thing he says is 'no'.
- Illidan re-introduced and then put away again.
- A lot of other major lore characters, important weapons (artifacts) used outside of raids and pretty much thrown away.

I'm really sorry, but this is too much. Far too much.
In the last expansion it all led up to Archimonde. And now here we are throwing away major lore characters left and right - and that's not even enough. We need to introduce new ones like Argus and then throw them away as well. And all of that on top of throwing away a whole arsenal of legendary weapons that had major lore significance.

It's like they threw everything into this that once had a name in the Warcraft universe. And for what? Now everything feels irrelevant. It's like our characters are plowing through the entirety of Warcraft history and just burning everything to the ground.

Legion had enough lore for 5 expansions, as far as I see it. But instead they chose to rush through everything and throw away most of what many players know about Warcraft. Good job.

You are just saying that "characters dying is bad", as if that was a thing. WoW is not acclaimed to have amazing storytelling to begin with, if anything the lacking thing is character development, not how quickly they die. Just staying alive longer doesn't necessarily develop characters any better.