So Alliance lost the Nightborne beacuse Tyrande was a dick?

[Garfurion]

The Nightborne join the Horde because it makes for easier/better story telling afterwards. The Nightborne will have betrayed the Night Elves twice so it creates a special enmity between the two groups. They do the same with the Void Elves who will be exiled Blood Elves rather than some type of High Elves to give them an additional reason to hate/distrust each other.

[yetgdhfgh]

I dont think its cause she was a dick to them i think its a matter of the Horde got there first and with the leader being besties with Lady Liadrin it was a sealed deal.

I wouldnt even be surprised if the thought of asking them to be allies even crossed the Alliance minds seeing how much prejudice the Nelfs had towards them.

[The Anax]

Can someone link me where this transpired? Is there an in-game movie or was it in a novel or something that Tyrande caused this schism?

[Every Pwny]

I don't recall EXACTLY when it occurs, but essentially Tyrande rebukes them for relying on the Nightwell so much and falling prey to addiction in much the same way that Blood Elves had done.

I don't remember that quote, the only time she really talks directly to them is with Thalyssra asking how can we trust you won't succumb to the same things Azshara and Elisande did. I don't think that ever happened, but when about is that? Tyrande didn't have too many lines and the nightborne never really commented on their feelings about anything she said.

Can someone link me where this transpired? Is there an in-game movie or was it in a novel or something that Tyrande caused this schism?

Nothing in game really from what I've seen, people usually refer to her talking to Thalyssra here:

"Archmage Khadgar says: Thank you for coming. We are here to discuss our mutual interests.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: Arcanist Thalyssra. I remember where your order stood in the War of the Ancients. How do we know you won't betray us and become the next Elisande... the next Azshara?
First Arcanist Thalyssra says: We do not intend to be slaves to the Nightwell. We seek to drive the Legion from Suramar and put an end to Elisande's oppression.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: The kaldorei will fight to see the Legion defeated and the Nightwell destroyed. Beyond that... we shall see where Elune's wisdom guides us.
Archmage Khadgar says: Thalyssra, your knowledge of the enemy will be crucial in the battle ahead. We shall call on you as needed."

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Take...eader#Alliance

[Lothaeryn]

Treehugging, superstitious, human sidekicks vs Elves with vastly similar experiences.

Nightborne are basically a retelling of the Blood Elven struggle with mana addiction.

Which is why it makes even less sense to retell that same story by pidgeonholing them into the Horde only.

I understand the similarities and why that would bring some closeness to the Blood Elves, but that doesnt mean that they only got help from the Horde, the Alliance did their share as well lorewise, even though Tyrande did it for selfish reasons. Besides, Thalyssra went out of her way to make sure her people no longer suffered from addiction to magic. Tyrande, while patronizing, would have been a good foil to help the Nightborne come to terms with not relying on magic as much as they used to, all the while teaching the Night Elves that not all magic= bad.

It would have made more sense to have them a Neutral Faction/race option, and the Horde have something like Ogres as their third option.

[The Anax]

I don't remember that quote, the only time she really talks directly to them is with Thalyssra asking how can we trust you won't succumb to the same things Azshara and Elisande did. I don't think that ever happened, but when about is that? Tyrande didn't have too many lines and the nightborne never really commented on their feelings about anything she said.



Nothing in game really from what I've seen, people usually refer to her talking to Thalyssra here:

"Archmage Khadgar says: Thank you for coming. We are here to discuss our mutual interests.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: Arcanist Thalyssra. I remember where your order stood in the War of the Ancients. How do we know you won't betray us and become the next Elisande... the next Azshara?
First Arcanist Thalyssra says: We do not intend to be slaves to the Nightwell. We seek to drive the Legion from Suramar and put an end to Elisande's oppression.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: The kaldorei will fight to see the Legion defeated and the Nightwell destroyed. Beyond that... we shall see where Elune's wisdom guides us.
Archmage Khadgar says: Thalyssra, your knowledge of the enemy will be crucial in the battle ahead. We shall call on you as needed."

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Take...eader#Alliance

Oh ok, I have never played an ALliance toon in 14 years, so maybe they do not show that to Horde players. Or, mayhap I saw it and forgot. I thought a lot of these things would be explained in the new novel coming out in June, and thought perhaps something else had happened. But, yes, going from that dialogue, it sounds as if the Night Elves would not have wanted the Nightborne in the Alliance as it is.

[Every Pwny]

Oh ok, I have never played an ALliance toon in 14 years, so maybe they do not show that to Horde players. Or, mayhap I saw it and forgot. I thought a lot of these things would be explained in the new novel coming out in June, and thought perhaps something else had happened. But, yes, going from that dialogue, it sounds as if the Night Elves would not have wanted the Nightborne in the Alliance as it is.

That is alliance only but the nightwell is destroyed, and Tyrande hopes they survive at the end after fighting to liberate suramar. There was no animosity between the two during or after, Tyrande was just voicing her skepticism about Thalyssra.

The reason will be revealed though in the nightborne level 20 questline though, it most likely won't be anything related to Tyrande and the night elves helping to liberate Suramar.

[Rotted]

Basically, it comes down to these two conversations :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6-BSeuT1Mw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pBK4xvZc0g

At least that's what we have so far, may see stronger justifications in 7.3.5.

Ah right I see, cheers.

I've had to switch mains so many times in legion I keep forgetting the suramar stuff carries on past the launch content.

[c313]

Well,

Fuck you too, Thalyssra

[sillag]

i mean the silgryn conversation is nice and all but from 7.0 to 7.2.5 the nightborne were pretty neutral and they went to lengths to show the night elves and blood elves helping them in perfect symmetry. the leader even turns off the nightwell again. thats what tyrande wanted her to do the whole time. it just doesnt add up i dont buy it blizzard.

having played wow before and lived through the hell that was warlords of draenor i ask you this: is it not more likely that the nightborne were originally intended to be neutral, but then made horde-only to replace another sub-race that they couldn't get finished in time. most likely: mag'har orcs, since we are apparently getting straight backed orcs coincidentally in bfa.

having made that decision they quickly had silgryn talk to liadrin to make sure that the wow playing kiddos would have something to point to after their dumb idea was announced.

never attribute to blizzard lore what could be better explained by blizzard laziness

[Oakshana]

If that's all it took to hurt their feelings the Horde can have them. The Alliance doesn't need people with such thin skin.

No. You missed my earlier post prior to that one. Tyrande's rebuke/chiding was not why they went horde. Silgryn speaks with Lady Liadrin in the Vindicar and explains they feel closer ties to Blood Elves simply because because they have both gone through similar times. They both relied too much on a single resource of magic (sunwell/nightwell), both withdrew into their own shells, both suffered greatly from their addictions, both threw their lots in with the wrong team at one point in an effort to save their people... in both cases (as you already know) it didn't end well.

They just have a closer kinship to the Blood Elves, and by extension the horde. It actually makes sense.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't remember that quote, the only time she really talks directly to them is with Thalyssra asking how can we trust you won't succumb to the same things Azshara and Elisande did. I don't think that ever happened, but when about is that? Tyrande didn't have too many lines and the nightborne never really commented on their feelings about anything she said.



Nothing in game really from what I've seen, people usually refer to her talking to Thalyssra here:

"Archmage Khadgar says: Thank you for coming. We are here to discuss our mutual interests.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: Arcanist Thalyssra. I remember where your order stood in the War of the Ancients. How do we know you won't betray us and become the next Elisande... the next Azshara?
First Arcanist Thalyssra says: We do not intend to be slaves to the Nightwell. We seek to drive the Legion from Suramar and put an end to Elisande's oppression.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: The kaldorei will fight to see the Legion defeated and the Nightwell destroyed. Beyond that... we shall see where Elune's wisdom guides us.
Archmage Khadgar says: Thalyssra, your knowledge of the enemy will be crucial in the battle ahead. We shall call on you as needed."

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Take...eader#Alliance

It's effectively towards the end of the Surumar campaign that leads you into the Nighthold. When she is standing on the bridge stairs with Liadrin, Thalyssra & Vereesa. To a horde character she says:

When I let you take the tears of Elune, I assumed the next time we would see each other would be at the final battle with the Legion.

I did not expect to see in the company of mana addicts at the footsteps of the city of my birth.

Speak quickly, <hero> I am not in the mood for Thalyssra's petitions.

Basically, it was a somewhat rude comment to make.

- - - Updated - - -

i mean the silgryn conversation is nice and all but from 7.0 to 7.2.5 the nightborne were pretty neutral and they went to lengths to show the night elves and blood elves helping them in perfect symmetry. the leader even turns off the nightwell again. thats what tyrande wanted her to do the whole time. it just doesnt add up i dont buy it blizzard.

having played wow before and lived through the hell that was warlords of draenor i ask you this: is it not more likely that the nightborne were originally intended to be neutral, but then made horde-only to replace another sub-race that they couldn't get finished in time. most likely: mag'har orcs, since we are apparently getting straight backed orcs coincidentally in bfa.

having made that decision they quickly had silgryn talk to liadrin to make sure that the wow playing kiddos would have something to point to after their dumb idea was announced.

never attribute to blizzard lore what could be better explained by blizzard laziness

What about it is laziness? Is it simply because you disagree and don't like it? Kind of a poor argument really.

They have a more common line up with Blood Elves. Having them simply join Alliance because we have Night Elves doesn't make any sense at all.

[ello]

Did you miss the part where it's part of a question? She asks how she knows she won't end up going bad, Thalyssra explains her outlook and goal, and Tyrande accepts it and pledges her forces to the fight. She wouldn't have put her people's lives on the line if she thought Thalyssra was going to become Azshara.

Just asking the question implies mistrust, have you played the Horde side of that questline? It's quite clear which of the two sides is more sympathetic.

It is if Thalyssra is joining the Horde.

...Maybe we should just wait for the whole story, yeah? It is not wrong by definition. Especially if Tyrande doesn't even try to recruit them while Liadrin actively pushes for it.


Besides, you don't seem very concerned if Silgryn(who is aligned with Thalyssra) or Elisande loyalsts(who make even less sense) joining the Horde, me thinks you just don't like the idea of a likable character on red team.

If your argument is "but sylvanas is evol!!! why join horde??" ... Well, I have no interest in going down that particular rabbit hole, but it's worth mentioning we could be asking "Why is Liadrin/Saurfang/Baine/Lor'themar/Rokhan/Thrall okay with Sylvanas?". It's an entirely seperate issue and we'll just have to see.

[Every Pwny]

It's effectively towards the end of the Surumar campaign that leads you into the Nighthold. When she is standing on the bridge stairs with Liadrin, Thalyssra & Vereesa. To a horde character she says:

When I let you take the tears of Elune, I assumed the next time we would see each other would be at the final battle with the Legion.

I did not expect to see in the company of mana addicts at the footsteps of the city of my birth.

Speak quickly, <hero> I am not in the mood for Thalyssra's petitions.

Basically, it was a somewhat rude comment to make.

That was before the Suramar campaign gets going and she is referring to the blood elves when they are standing outside the city when you are preparing to start, not at the bridge. It's horde only dialogue at the beginning of the whole thing.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Take...r_Leader#Horde

Also that has nothing to do with the "They didn't appreciate her attitude" because they never talk about her attitude, that part is never mentioned.

[corebit]

The decision of Nightborne to join the Horde has less to do with Tyrande and more to do with them and the Blood Elves having a lot more in common (the whole mana addiction problem).

[Hitei]

Besides, you don't seem very concerned if Silgryn(who is aligned with Thalyssra) or Elisande loyalsts(who make even less sense) joining the Horde, me thinks you just don't like the idea of a likable character on red team.

If your argument is "but sylvanas is evol!!! why join horde??" ... Well, I have no interest in going down that particular rabbit hole, but it's worth mentioning we could be asking "Why is Liadrin/Saurfang/Baine/Lor'themar/Rokhan/Thrall okay with Sylvanas?". It's an entirely seperate issue and we'll just have to see.

How is Silgryn not a likable character? I'm not concerned with Silgryn or loyalists joining because unlike Thalyssra, they aren't super heavily involved with both factions and the player, who is Alliance for half of the player base. Silgryn is fairly aloof from the player and then close with the Horde. Of course it makes sense if he joins. Please stop trying to strawman this into "Horde don't deserve nice things!"

My argument isn't "Sylvanas is evil so they shouldn't join!" My argument is that she is just an even worse version of the person the Nightfallen just finished fighting and dying to get rid of. She could be the most altruistic and caring character in the entire game, and it wouldn't make sense to join her if they had just fought and died to get rid of an altruistic and caring leader for being altruistic and caring.

She is everything they just fought against. Why immediately put yourself back in that situation? It's illogical as all hell. Particularly when they are culturally so completely far from all the other races involved in the Horde, and they don't have a pressing need to join a faction (Most of the Nightborne should be concerned with fixing Suramar and the surrounding lands, not pursuing Alliance/Horde interests in foreign lands).

Why is it so complicated? Nightborne betrayed the Night Elves during the WotA and ignored them for ten thousand years and recently emerged by joining the Legion and Tyrande is cold to them. They didn't even give a damn about their former kin after the shield went down. Nightborne are the kind of people who only care about their own selves. They join the Horde for their own goals.

Exactly my point. You are describing Elisande and her followers. Not Thalyssra and hers. Hence why it makes so much more sense for playable Nightborne to be Duskwatch.

[MikeBogina]

it could possibly have to do with blizzard deciding who did what in the canon. I can see the Alliance doing Emerald Nightmare, so maybe in the canon, horde did more in Suramar, namely my BLOOD ELF Demon Hunter.

Not all the quests and quest lines can be done by both factions, someone had to do it and if it was anyone, it was probably someone who could understand the addiction they were going through.

You also have the stuck up Night Elves and the super stuck up High Elves who betrayed their own people cause they think their shit don't stink, so i think it's really obvious that the Nightborne wouldn't want to put up with their shit.

[ello]

How is Silgryn not a likable character? I'm not concerned with Silgryn or loyalists joining because unlike Thalyssra, they aren't super heavily involved with both factions and the player, who is Alliance for half of the player base. Silgryn is fairly aloof from the player and then close with the Horde. Of course it makes sense if he joins. Please stop trying to strawman this into "Horde don't deserve nice things!"

If Silgryn can join the Horde, I don't see why Thalyssra can't. They are on the same side.

My argument isn't "Sylvanas is evil so they shouldn't join!" My argument is that she is just an even worse version of the person the Nightfallen just finished fighting and dying to get rid of. She could be the most altruistic and caring character in the entire game, and it wouldn't make sense to join her if they had just fought and died to get rid of an altruistic and caring leader for being altruistic and caring.

Yeah, well I'm not convinced Helya's pact with Sylvanas is on the same level of Elisande's. At least not until hositle forces are patrolling Orgrimmar.

Exactly my point. You are describing Elisande and her followers. Not Thalyssra and hers. Hence why it makes so much more sense for playable Nightborne to be Duskwatch.

The people that recruited the Nightborne(blood elves) had no love for the duskwatch because Elisande = Kael 'thas, who they have denounced. It would make no sense, unless they had some weird character shift. On the other hand, they got along great with Thalyssra's squad.



tl;dr tyrande didn't care about the nightborne, made unflattering comparisons, and probably did nothing after Nighthhold. Liadrin was nice, tried to reach out and continued to push ties afterwards. nightborne are probably joining for selfish reasons. have a good night

[Peebuddy]

This reminds me when the Judge asks the child who he wants to live with after the divorce. Your rich dad in the city, or with your mom way out in the country

Now ask yourself what 10,000 year old arrogant drug addicts are going to choose?

[mickybrighteyes]

Probably not a coincidence either. Someone at Blizz is probably named Gar(y) and no one likes him :<

But the Patron Saint of Games also shares that title... or has an age passed an we all forgot this?

[Throren]

Food for thought: a Night Elf and Night elf druids from the past are the reason why the Nightborne get freed from the curse of the Nightwell and no longer have to live in pain as shriveled walking corpses or fear becoming withered. You'd think they'd be grateful for that