Classic must be tuned higher than it was in 2004

[Sturmbringe]

I promise that a lot of people who never played vanilla but decide to try out the classic servers are going to /ragequit by level 40.

I agree.

To refer to a very famous case that was reported in the Nostalrius forums and became widely known amidst the Nostalrius community, we have had one of the Retail's top Mythic/Hard Modes raiders join Nostalrius and try to level up a Warrior. This was a US player.

The player discussed here, quit Nostalrius in an epic fit of rage after his Warrior was ambushed and subsequently killed by a couple of Murlocks (OK maybe 3) in the lake near Godshire inn.

He also posted a long diatribe at the Nostalrius forums in which he sang the praises of Retail and told us how much Vanilla sucked, which became the laughing stock of the server. Predictably, responses were along the lines of

"SHOW US ON THE TEDDY HERE WHERE DID THE BAD MURLOCK TOUCH YOU, HONEY".

Fun times.

To sum up, tuning-up Vanilla WoW is unnecessary b/c Veteran players are fine with it, and Retail Kung-Fu Pandas/Pokemon/Ponies babies won't even get past level 10 under the current difficulty anyway and those who do will quit anyway when they get to STVietnam.

[Deleted]

I don't agree. However, depending on which patch it will be set in, it will be easier/harder.

[OrcsRLame]

LOL
LOL
LOL

man you have no idea how funny you are

Vanilla dungeons did not make you level faster

leveling was most of Vanilla

being max level meant you had less content and less to do for a very very long time the game was designed completely different to what you have played

TBC was nothing like Vanilla it had been nerfed into the ground so much

btw i dont even remember summoning stones letting you summon people in Vanilla

How is any of that even slightly relevant to what I said?

First off, lack of a summoning stone is not going to stop a hardcore leveling group.

Secondly, I don't give a fuck if vanilla lacked content, people will still race to max level. That's a total non-sequitur to what we were talking about. Try to stay on topic please.

Thirdly, only one of these statements can be true. "Leveling took months in Vanilla due to bottlenecks." "Dungeons in vanilla did not make you level faster." Even if each mob takes 10 minutes to kill and only offers 1 xp per kill, that is a legitimate solution to a bottleneck that takes months to bypass.

You haven't offered anything that even resembles a quantitative explanation for your claims. That makes me think you're talking out your ass. I'm starting to think that you never played Vanilla. Maybe you've never played wow at all if you can't understand the value of an infinitely farmable source of XP during a bottleneck. So put up or shut up.

[loadedaxe]

The game will never be "vanilla as you remember it" stop pushing this dumb narrative. The game will be as close as they can make it, but they also need to uphold blizzards current standards and ensure the game is not a bug filled mess and that encounters are tuned as best they can.

Current standards are what we have now. No we "vanilla" lovers dont want "standards" we have now.

Blizz has one chance not to fuck this up. If they listen to the live lovers, they might as well not do it.

[Zensunni]

Current standards are what we have now. No we "vanilla" lovers dont want "standards" we have now.

Blizz has one chance not to fuck this up. If they listen to the live lovers, they might as well not do it.

If they make Classic identical to vanilla, which means powerful addons, raiding will be a joke. Raiding *was* a joke in vanilla up to C'thun, like...my raid group, which was 50% bad, would *literally* down bosses in BWL with 5 people afk. The healers and I would whisper to each other and secretly let people die that we didn't like. The top 3 healers, we would whisper each other and take turns going afk during fights, "Hey, cover me I need to go have a cig".

If you added DBM to this mixture, 10 normal people and 30 mentally ill mouth breathers could clear MC and BWL. The *only*, and I mean the *only* truly difficult thing about raiding up to C'thun was getting 37 people to show up and push buttons. I promise you this will remain the only challenge. And if they allow regular addons (which they must according to the naysayers that want everything 'exactly' the same as vanilla), you will have DBM and decursive, and borderline automated healing addons. Hell, the addons were so wild west back then, the modern addon developers could probably make an addon that like told DPS where to go with a big red arrow. With all these addons available, you'll be able to pug MC/BWL with ease, taking random morons provided they have vanilla-DBM installed.

While I agree with the people that say Vanilla should be re-tuned because the meta has changed and there's no way to put it back in the box, I also disagree with them insofar as claiming it matters. Classic is just a throwaway that the rose-colored-glasses people want, and hell I hope they enjoy it, I truly do. Heck, I wish I could blind myself with nostalgia like that, I think I'd be a lot happier. So let them have their snooze-fest. Are those of us that think it should be balanced and re-tuned really gonna play the hot mess called Vanilla instead of the vastly superior iteration called retail? I sure as hell won't.

Beyond leveling a rogue to 60 to gank that is.

[loadedaxe]

IAre those of us that think it should be balanced and re-tuned really gonna play the hot mess called Vanilla instead of the vastly superior iteration called retail? I sure as hell won't.

Beyond leveling a rogue to 60 to gank that is.

And that is your right and I respect your opinion. I am not a nostalgia lover, I am in it for the community aspect of it. If they retune it to todays standards, there wont be any.

[Hitokiribaka]

I think how vanilla pans out is going to be very interesting! I recall one time spending upwards of 3-4 hours in pre Cata sunken temple. Just the sheer size of the instance is so much different than in the new versions of wow. Tell me what instances in the past exps have been as large as Sunken Temple. Thinking about it I think parts of Dire maul are larger than some of the more recent raids lol! I think time management is going to be a key indicator between veteran players and people trying classic for the first time. So many people are used to running into a place and going pew pew pew lazers, Classic is literally gonna grab the gun and shove it up some of the new players ass. I think if there needs to be tuning we should wait a couple months to see, and base tuning off of a curve, if more people are able to cope then don't tune, if only a small majority are able to see most content, maybe a slight tune.

[Goobaman]

My god we are conflating so many unrelated facts together to cobble broken opinions together lol.

The game -feels- easier today because gearing up is easier. Full stop. It, objectively, is not easier or less complicated than before.
Boss and dungeon mechanics, objectively and without rebuttal, ARE more complex and difficult to execute now than anything in Classic. Full stop.

Acknowledge the above. From there, whatever. The game is more complicated and difficult when tuned right (read, NOT ran by players 50-100 ilevels over its intended difficulty) than it was before, which is offset by how easy gearing up to access these mechanics is now.

[Echocho]

I wish all the nost babies would stop advocating 1.12 and no changes in the same breath. Do you want piss easy content because that's how you get it. Tune the damn raids.

[khalltusk]

Current standards are what we have now. No we "vanilla" lovers dont want "standards" we have now.

Blizz has one chance not to fuck this up. If they listen to the live lovers, they might as well not do it.

I like both classic and live, don't pretend you speak for everyone. You don't you only speak for your self. Bugs/exploits will most likely be fixed if they are game breaking. Some fights might be tuned a bit if they are far below what they should be for players. This does depend on what patch they deploy the game on.

[Deleted]

I agree.

To refer to a very famous case that was reported in the Nostalrius forums and became widely known amidst the Nostalrius community, we have had one of the Retail's top Mythic/Hard Modes raiders join Nostalrius and try to level up a Warrior. This was a US player.

The player discussed here, quit Nostalrius in an epic fit of rage after his Warrior was ambushed and subsequently killed by a couple of Murlocks (OK maybe 3) in the lake near Godshire inn.

He also posted a long diatribe at the Nostalrius forums in which he sang the praises of Retail and told us how much Vanilla sucked, which became the laughing stock of the server. Predictably, responses were along the lines of

"SHOW US ON THE TEDDY HERE WHERE DID THE BAD MURLOCK TOUCH YOU, HONEY".

Fun times.

To sum up, tuning-up Vanilla WoW is unnecessary b/c Veteran players are fine with it, and Retail Kung-Fu Pandas/Pokemon/Ponies babies won't even get past level 10 under the current difficulty anyway and those who do will quit anyway when they get to STVietnam.

Lvl 40 ? Deadmines/Ragefire chasm are a filter decent enough. It's interesting because since i came from EQ and EQ2, they were cakewalks at the time, but plenty of the people at retail have a hard time doing dungeons which aren't gogo max DPS aggro doesn't exist(which has its own merits but different gameplay).

[clevin]

Two tiny points:

1) Vanilla was never all about raiding. Yes, I know, all of you were top raiders of course... but for a lot of people that's not what Vanilla was all about

2) Before you claim to be god-like raiders who are so much better than the players were then you might want to, oh, play the game.

They should launch as close to vanilla as possible. See what happens. See whether you all are as good as you think... or if perhaps you're better but not 10x better.

[Deleted]

Raid bosses should be slightly tuned imo, 25% more hp, dmg would work easily.. clearing mc in 25min is ridiculous albeit with pro players and mc gear

[pateuvasiliu]

Raid bosses should be slightly tuned imo, 25% more hp, dmg would work easily.. clearing mc in 25min is ridiculous albeit with pro players and mc gear

MC is meant to be cleared with blue gear so it's no surprise. Also it's an entry level raid it's not meant to be too hard. With the right consumes it's a cakewalk.

[Zensunni]

MC is meant to be cleared with blue gear so it's no surprise. Also it's an entry level raid it's not meant to be too hard. With the right consumes it's a cakewalk.

I still think a lot of people don't get it. The difficulty level of MC is roughly around LFR. I'm not exaggerating, not trolling. The tactics and tuning of LFR Kil'Jaeden is arguably *harder* than Ragnaros. If you'd thrown *Normal* Kil'Jaeden at the typical vanilla raiding guild, they would have been losing their minds "ZOMG SO HARD HARDEST BOSS EVARRRRRR!"

Vanilla wasn't raid-centric because raids were 40 people. This was probably the single biggest reason. If there had been flex raids down to 15 people, pugging MC/BWL would have been as common as UBRS runs.

[pateuvasiliu]

I still think a lot of people don't get it. The difficulty level of MC is roughly around LFR. I'm not exaggerating, not trolling. The tactics and tuning of LFR Kil'Jaeden is arguably *harder* than Ragnaros. If you'd thrown *Normal* Kil'Jaeden at the typical vanilla raiding guild, they would have been losing their minds "ZOMG SO HARD HARDEST BOSS EVARRRRRR!"

Vanilla wasn't raid-centric because raids were 40 people. This was probably the single biggest reason. If there had been flex raids down to 15 people, pugging MC/BWL would have been as common as UBRS runs.

BWL isn't that easy. There are some mechanics that are interesting. When my guild was fresh we 4 hunters would kite the 12 drakes on Razorgore around the map. Now we can just DPS them down without having to do that.

Depression Room is probably the worst shit in WoW, I love and hate it.

Chromaggus is also fun.

[Soon-TM]

1.12 was 7 months. plz stop saying it was only like 1 week and people didn't raid on it.

Well, the thing is that since BC was known to come soon (for Blizzard's standards, hehe) after 1.12, many people gave up on raiding, especially when the PTR showed green pieces from Outland that were better than any Naxx drop, bar set bonuses.

[Zig Zug]

You're misguided. People aren't "better" now than hey were.

Characters. Ten.

[Benefitzs]

The "best players", don't make me laugh". "Best players" have never been, and still aren't raiders. Why do raiders think they're somehow "good players"? It's never been difficult to play your class optimally in a raid. The only difficult thing has been pvping when the game was somewhat balanced ie wotlk s7-8. Go look at some of the vanilla top pvpers if you wanna see "skilled" players, not raiders. Sure it's not balanced blahblah, you can still detect a player's skill when you see a mage take on 3 players simultaneously. Same deal in current wow.


Everything else in this game is about stacking your odds against things using one resource and one resource only, TIME.

At the end of the day though I guess it's not surprising that so many people believe raiding is "hard" and being part of raids lets you call yourself a skilled, good player, but really you're just "a player" investing the time required.

If you are trying to make the argument that raiding then took as much individual skill as it does now, you're delusional. The mechanics in classic were easy, and you wont convince me otherwise, because I played it. At the TIME it felt challenging because the game was new and you were still figuring out the game. Put a side by side video of ragnaros vs mythic Kil'jaeden and tell me vanilla took more skill. And saying it has never been difficult to play optimally is a joke as well, link me your cutting edge achievements and rank 1 logs and tell me how easy it is. You sound exactly like a vanilla player that didn't evolve with the rest of the players. And vanilla pvp had nothing to do with skill, it was a brainless grind just like you think raiding is, one shotting blue geared players decked out in the best gear doesn't make you good, period. Your metric of difficulty is way off and youre delusional about pvpers in wrath being the only good players, before you criticize people who raid on live servers, maybe you should consider *actually* playing the game, and try doing more than LFR every week.

[Katchii]

I didn't raid back then but from what I've seen, read and discussed with other people who have, the game was just far less forgiving then than it is now, which inflated the difficulty not because it was actually HARD, but because a single mistake by even one person could cause an entire 10 minute fight go down the drain. Knowing the fight just wasn't good enough.

Talking to people about their Vanilla raiding experience reminds me of when I did the Warlock Green Fire quest in MoP when it was current. The fight was straight forward and I knew it inside out within three tries...I just couldn't execute it flawlessly as the encounter required. Using exactly the right ability, on exactly the right thing/ mob/ person, standing in exactly the right place, and attacking the right thing at exactly the right time for 5 straight minutes is what made it hard.

Now imagine requiring 10 people to do that....now imagine 20.....and now imagine 40. And now imagine having to practice it with that many people for hours on end, multiple times for weeks, to make sure everyone knew the fight and had the right gear to even take part in it and coordinating real life schedules around that.

Hard doesn't really begin to scratch the surface of what that must have been like. It's an understatement.